Questions about copper poisoning/copper pipes + hoses in herms system

Hello,

I am making a herms system.

I was warned against using copper pipes, a guy told me that acidic liquids recirculationg, potentially for hours while mashing may be a bad idea. He said that 15 mg copper salts will make you seriously ill.

Does anyone know what he was on about. I looked up copper poisoning on google, and it does indeed exist.

What kind of hoses could I use instead? I like hoses, they are flexible.

Thanks.

Kind regards,
Marius

I think he's on crack. A very large majority of folks on this site with hard plaumbed rigs (myself included) are copper and, as far as i know, no one has died from copper poisoning.

What about all of the old, MASSIVE copper kettles that professional berweries used/use?

Copper has been used for centuries in brewing, and is a traditional material for boil kettles.

You aren't going to poison yourself or others by recirculating wort in copper.

Copper oxides do have a toxicological effect if ingested, so if you sse blue-green oxides on the copper, you need to remove them, but otherwise, copper is an excellent material for brewing applications.

By the way, I'm a metallurgist: I actually know what I'm talking about here.

Listen to the metals episode of Brew Strong. They talk to Colin Kaminski from Downtown Joe's, who uses copper brewpots. Apparently the state of California started freaking out about the use of copper, too, so they even came by to get samples of the finished beer to test. The never heard from them again. If the California can't even find anything wrong with it, I wouldn't worry about it.

Hello,

I am making a herms system.

I was warned against using copper pipes, a guy told me that acidic liquids recirculationg, potentially for hours while mashing may be a bad idea. He said that 15 mg copper salts will make you seriously ill.

Does anyone know what he was on about. I looked up copper poisoning on google, and it does indeed exist.

What kind of hoses could I use instead? I like hoses, they are flexible.

Thanks.

Kind regards,
Marius

I'm thinking he had been exposed to too many copper salts and it has muddled his thought process.

PTN

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Most everyone uses copper for their HERMS coil and we are still alive and kicking.

The key to all this is that yeast love copper and scavenge almost all of it during fermentation, it is actually good for them. Leaving practically none in the finished beer (as in the case of Downtown Joe's). However, post fermentation contact with copper should be minimized.

Also, I'm pretty sure you don't want to ferment in a copper container. I can't remember where I read it, so maybe someone can back me up on this?

Did you really have to post this a second time?

he probably is thinking, beer brewing=carbonated liquid flowing through copper. he probably doesn't understand that in the beer brewing process it isn't beer until after it's fermented....

carbonated liquid in contact with copper or un-plated copper alloys can create poisonous compounds, that's why soda systems use plastic or stainless steel for all connections.

Scimmia said:

Did you really have to post this a second time?

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No clue why that happened. I have been asleep for hours and did not do that myself.M

marzsit said:

he probably is thinking, beer brewing=carbonated liquid flowing through copper. he probably doesn't understand that in the beer brewing process it isn't beer until after it's fermented....

carbonated liquid in contact with copper or un-plated copper alloys can create poisonous compounds, that's why soda systems use plastic or stainless steel for all connections.

Click to expand...

Possibly, I will ask him!

Thank for all your great input. I can use copper. That's become very clear to me now.

I am keen to use a hose though, because they are flexible.

I went to a hose shop today. They had an expensive silicon hose that the guy thought was ok, but it didn't look like he knew what he was on about. Any idea what kind of hoses would be suitable?

Thanks,
Marius

I have to rip all of the copper plumbing out of my house now!. It has Dihydrogen Monoxide running through it.

kingoslo said:

I went to a hose shop today. They had an expensive silicon hose that the guy thought was ok, but it didn't look like he knew what he was on about. Any idea what kind of hoses would be suitable?

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Silicon or thermoplastic is best for anything above 70deg Celsius.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/1-2-id-thermoplastic-tubing.html

dkershner said:

Silicon or thermoplastic is best for anything above 70deg Celsius.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/1-2-id-thermoplastic-tubing.html

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Thank you.

When i am out shopping for thermoplastic or silicon hoses, how do i check to make sure that the material does not leave a plastic or silicon flavour in my beer? After all, tje liquid will circulate for hours.M

food-grade hose usually has NSF markings on it, that would probably be a good thing to look for.

marzsit said:

food-grade hose usually has NSF markings on it, that would probably be a good thing to look for.

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What is NSF?

Do you think they have NSF in Norway? That is where I am from.

Thanks!

Marius

How does this Goodyear Engineered hose called Vintner™ look? http://www.goodyearep.com/productsdetail.aspx?id=3094

Kind regards,
Marius

Actually, never mind, this hose is too thick for my microscopic herms system

Your advisor must have been drinking moonshine distilled in a car radiator...

Scimmia said:

Listen to the metals episode of Brew Strong. They talk to Colin Kaminski from Downtown Joe's, who uses copper brewpots. Apparently the state of California started freaking out about the use of copper, too, so they even came by to get samples of the finished beer to test. The never heard from them again. If the California can't even find anything wrong with it, I wouldn't worry about it.

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Ain't that the truth! If those characters had found anything in there, he'd probably have been shut down.

This whole thing sounds to me like the "Internet effect" in action, i.e., an unnamed second-hand source says "I heard that's dangerous-" (making it THIRD-hand, at best, as well as undemonstrated and undocumented) and suddenly it's on some forums and the next day it's being treated like one of Newton's Laws.

It's a corollary of the "UFO Effect," promoted by people who want me to demonstrate that UFOs DON'T exist. No. Sorry. That's not the way it works. You show me a real UFO....I'd even settle for an ignition key to a UFO, or an alien bag of trash....and then there's a basis for discussion. Until then, get out m' face.

rico567 said:

...This whole thing sounds to me like the "Internet effect" in action, i.e., an unnamed second-hand source says "I heard that's dangerous-" (making it THIRD-hand, at best, as well as undemonstrated and undocumented) and suddenly it's on some forums and the next day it's being treated like one of Newton's Laws.

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- Well written.M

kingsolo
For your Herms coil, you will want to use tubing which conducts temperature, like copper or stainless. For connecting the herms coil to your mash tun, etc, food grade silicone tubing is flexible, resilient and high temp safe.

rico567 said:

I'd even settle for an ignition key to a UFO, or an alien bag of trash....

Click to expand...

I hear most of the alien trash hangs out in the zeta reticuli but I think there are some nice alians there too.....J/K

[on/topic]

I think the good year stuff you linked may be a little over kill.

bendavanza said:

kingsolo
For your Herms coil, you will want to use tubing which conducts temperature, like copper or stainless. For connecting the herms coil to your mash tun, etc, food grade silicone tubing is flexible, resilient and high temp safe.

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Hello,

Thanks for this. How good is thermoplastic hose from northern brewer as suggested earlier in this thread compared to silicon? In my country, silicon is $25/meter.

Thanks,
Marius

Haha. I like this. It is funny. How many millions of Americans have copper piping throughout their house? I'll give you a hint, a lot. It is very, very safe, otherwise it wouldn't be EVERYWHERE.

Silly man giving advice about something he clearly doesn't understand. Maybe he was drunk?

cford1 said:

Haha. I like this. It is funny. How many millions of Americans have copper piping throughout their house? I'll give you a hint, a lot. It is very, very safe, otherwise it wouldn't be EVERYWHERE.

Silly man giving advice about something he clearly doesn't understand. Maybe he was drunk?

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There has been much debate about copper in water. In my country houses built after 2000 doesn't have copper pipes, i believe, partly because of this.

15mg copper salts = copper poisoning. (http://wiki.medpedia.com/Copper_in_Drinking_Water)

I believe what was the problem with my friend (actually my old man) was that he knew that these circumstances more easily release copper into water, and he did not know to what degree it should be considered a threat:

- Acidic water (low pH)
- Soft water (low in calcium and magnesium)
- Elevated water temperature

However, I have introduced him to this thread, and he has eaten his words.

Want to ask you something else, about hoses:

- Silicon
- Food grade thermoplastic

There is a massive price difference, will one be any better than the other for circulating wort?

Thanks,
Marius

Hermit said:

I have to rip all of the copper plumbing out of my house now!. It has Dihydrogen Monoxide running through it.

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Brilliant. It took me half of the FAQs page to figure it out, but then again, I just woke up. I think the most insidious thing about Dihydrogen Monoxide is that once one has been exposed to enough of it, quitting inevitably causes withdrawal and death. Clearly, it is a global conspiracy.

Back to the OP, yes the tubing can be expensive. Building a recirculating system can be an expensive affair.

Check out www.usplastics.com for a good sense of the options. They may not be the least expensive source, but they have a lot of data.

I like (and many others do, too) the silicone hose at Austin Homebrew Supply. Here is a link their hose:
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=silicone+hose
You'll see this on many rigs on the forum, it's around $2 per ft.

bendavanza said:

I like (and many others do, too) the silicone hose at Austin Homebrew Supply. Here is a link their hose:
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=silicone+hose
You'll see this on many rigs on the forum, it's around $2 per ft.

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- Good tip. Thanks!M

People are too worried about transition metal oxides. Yeast love them- they'll get scooped up and pooped out long before they ever touch a beer bottle. This goes for copper tubing, aluminum pots, brass (that's copper + zinc) fittings, and so forth.

Frankly, I'd be more worried about hot temps and low ph extracting something from plastic hoses/better bottles/racking canes that will give me man boobs than I ever would be about copper poisoning me.

jds said:

Copper has been used for centuries in brewing, and is a traditional material for boil kettles.

You aren't going to poison yourself or others by recirculating wort in copper.

Copper oxides do have a toxicological effect if ingested, so if you sse blue-green oxides on the copper, you need to remove them, but otherwise, copper is an excellent material for brewing applications.

By the way, I'm a metallurgist: I actually know what I'm talking about here.

Click to expand...

What about copper contact with already fermented beer? I saw a how to on a copper conical and wondered if this was a baaaad idea or not...

~M~