Simple controller

I've been looking for a simple controller design for a long time. I'm looking for something to simply control my mash temps, then increase it to boil in the same kettle. I have couple different elements, a couple keggles and bins full of spare copper and stainless. What I lack is any electrical know go. I'm not scared to learn or try something, I just don't know where to begin.

Oh, I guess I should mention, all electric. Recirculated mash. Think Braumeister, but 'Merican style. All I'm trying to do is control the temps with two elements. I'll manually pump, valve, everything else. Just want to control temps.

I would suggest a no frills Ranco setup with a SSR for each element. This would be easiest way I can think of. There are other types out there like Love controllers but at that point it's mostly a matter of taste for the looks of the thing. They all work and wire pretty much the same. I have a very complex setup with a web based controller BCS 460 - I"m overall not very happy with it. I end up using it in manual mode and it seems to freeze up and ruin every other batch (I've boiled a few mashes set to 153*).

There are two basic types of controllers. Simple on/off controllers and PID. A simple on/off controller will turn the element on 100% until the process temp rises above the set point then it will turn the element off. Once the temp drops below the set point it turns the element back on. There are some draw backs to these types of controllers.

1. Overshoot. As the temp reaches the setpoint it will continue to rise once you turn off the element.

2. Ripple. Once you get to the setpoint you really want to find the correct throttle setting that will keep the mash at the correct temp instead of continuously turning the element on and off whether the mash temp is above or below the setpoint.

3. Steady state error. If you average out the ripple the average mash temp most likely wont be the same as the setpoint.

This is where PID controllers come into play. If you adjust the settings correctly you can eliminate all 3 of the above mentioned issues.

The ranco and love controllers that I know of are simple on/off controllers. You may want to look at a PID controller like the ones auber ins sells.

crane said:

...
You may want to look at a PID controller like the ones auber ins sells.

Click to expand...

Excellent!

Look at their PID SYL-2352.

Need help? Ask.

P-J

P-J said:

Excellent!

Look at their PID SYL-2352.

Need help? Ask.

P-J

Click to expand...

So with that I can hook up both elements? I have a dedicated 220v 50a and 110 30a at my brew space.

What is the wattage on each of the elements?

It's not quite as simple as just hooking up the elements directly to the output of the PID. You are going to need a solid state relay (SSR) in between the PID and the elements. The PID will output a low voltage 12V DC control signal. This control signal goes to the input of the SSR. The output of the SSR is basically a switch that will turn on/off the high voltage 120/240V AC going to the element.

I suggest taking a look at some of the builds in the electric brewing sub forum as well as looking at theelectricbrewery.com to get more familiar with these types of set ups. You will find that P-J has done an excellent job of providing hundreds of wiring diagrams for different builds on here.

You are also going to have to provide GFCI protection since your brewery is considered a wet space. The cheapest and most common way is to use a spa panel circuit breaker box.

When it comes to working with high voltages (120 and above) I am a firm believer that you have to learn how to fish instead of just asking someone for a fish. You really have to know exactly what's going on with each component and every node in your wiring diagram. This will help to make sure that you are using the correct components and wire gauge in your control panel. Before plugging anything in make sure all of your wire connections and crimp terminals are solid. Also use a multimeter to Ohm out all of your connections and to check for accidental shorts before you plug anything in for the first time.

One more thing, IMHO it's not worth buying cheap Chinese components off of eBay. You get no support when things don't work correctly and most the time they don't even come with a half way decent users manual to show you how to set it up correctly. Auber Ins has amazing customer support and is willing to help you get your setup working properly. Every time I have emailed them I get a response within a day.

If you don't want to buy all the components separately and assemble a control panel, high gravity brewing sells a single PID preassembled box. You are still going to have to provide a GFCI and deal with mounting the element(s) and element cover(s).

I've got a 5500w, 4500w and two 2000w 120v.

Generally people will put an element directly in the brew kettle but not in the mash tun do to scorching issues. For the mash tun a RIMs tube or HERMs setup is generally how it is done. However I think you will find on here some BIAB guys that have an element in their single vessel.

A single 5500W or 4500W element provides enough power for a keggle when it is run off of 240V.

Even to boil 13 gallons?


My element will be below my grain and I'll be recirculating similar to a Braumeister, pumping into the middle of the mash. Then winching the grain out at boil time and sparging through the suspended grain.

I use a single 5500W element in my keggle and it works just fine. I can get a very good rolling boil. Once I am boiling I usually throttle back to 60-65% and boil off 1 gallon in a hour long boil.

crane said:

What is the wattage on each of the elements?

It's not quite as simple as just hooking up the elements directly to the output of the PID. You are going to need a solid state relay (SSR) in between the PID and the elements. The PID will output a low voltage 12V DC control signal. This control signal goes to the input of the SSR. The output of the SSR is basically a switch that will turn on/off the high voltage 120/240V AC going to the element.

I suggest taking a look at some of the builds in the electric brewing sub forum as well as looking at theelectricbrewery.com to get more familiar with these types of set ups. You will find that P-J has done an excellent job of providing hundreds of wiring diagrams for different builds on here.

You are also going to have to provide GFCI protection since your brewery is considered a wet space. The cheapest and most common way is to use a spa panel circuit breaker box.

When it comes to working with high voltages (120 and above) I am a firm believer that you have to learn how to fish instead of just asking someone for a fish. You really have to know exactly what's going on with each component and every node in your wiring diagram. This will help to make sure that you are using the correct components and wire gauge in your control panel. Before plugging anything in make sure all of your wire connections and crimp terminals are solid. Also use a multimeter to Ohm out all of your connections and to check for accidental shorts before you plug anything in for the first time.

One more thing, IMHO it's not worth buying cheap Chinese components off of eBay. You get no support when things don't work correctly and most the time they don't even come with a half way decent users manual to show you how to set it up correctly. Auber Ins has amazing customer support and is willing to help you get your setup working properly. Every time I have emailed them I get a response within a day.

If you don't want to buy all the components separately and assemble a control panel, high gravity brewing sells a single PID preassembled box. You are still going to have to provide a GFCI and deal with mounting the element(s) and element cover(s).

Click to expand...

I totally missed this post. Thank you so much. This is the type of info I need. I can get a spa panel easily, and am having an electrician move the wiring for me. We just moved into this house and SWMBO informed me that the garage is our brewery/bike shop, not for parking. I'll be installing two tankless water heaters in there, one or the house and the second running in series off the first for brewery water. Controlled by a commercial controller to get to 185.

I am very comfortable building, plumbing, cars, etc. for some reason when it comes to electrical I always feel very uneducated. I figure this is a good chance to learn.

Mounting the elements, covers, plumbing the system. I'm 100% confident with. Designing and wiring a controller, I'm not. I've looked through hundreds of schematics here and at theelectricbrewery and it seems like everyone is doing really complex systems. I don't want to take the manual labor out of my brewing. It's my stress relief. What I can't control manually very well is temps, which is why I want just a simple controller.

I really appreciate all of the help here.

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/EBC-SV-with-Infinite-Power-Control-158p3986.htm
This seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. Is this something that I can save money/gain experience by building myself, or is it something that I should spend the $500 on? Money is a little tight in this economy, so I need to save wherever I can!

snaps10 said:

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/EBC-SV-with-Infinite-Power-Control-158p3986.htm
This seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. Is this something that I can save money/gain experience by building myself, or is it something that I should spend the $500 on? Money is a little tight in this economy, so I need to save wherever I can!

Click to expand...

You can definitely save a bunch of cash if you build it yourself. For what you are trying to do (just temp control of a single element) you can accomplish this with a fairly simple wiring diagram. A lot of people add a lot of things to their design that are in the "nice to have" or "eye candy" category in my opinion. My control box is as simple as you can get.

1. 240V in
2. SSR
3. 240V out
4. 1/4" jack to run the control signal from my microcontroller dev kit to the SSR.

Since you will be using a PID instead of a microcontroller yours can be as simple as:

1. 240V in
2. SSR
3. 240V out
4. PID
5. fuse for PID
6. connector for temp sensor input

Other bells and whistles that can be added include:

1. light to indicate when the element is actually on
2. alarm buzzer to sound when the mash/water temp reaches the setpoint
3. emergency stop button (I don't have one because my spa panel is within reach so I can press the test button which does the same thing).
4. switch and 120V outlet for your pump
5. timer
6. I am sure there are more items I am not thinking of at the moment.

You can always get a big enough box to add some of these items later once you initially get your system up and running.

^^^ That's what I want. I actually don't want the bells and whistles.

Mine's even simpler than that--no fuse for the PID and a hole in the box for the temp probe (RTV). Every thing is mounted in a small plastic auxillary breaker box with a single 30A breaker.

Can you take a photo for me?

Here is are some pictures of mine.











I plan on eventually outgrowing this box as I complete my system but this allowed me to get up and running with minimal cost/effort. I had the box lying around for another project that never happened.

Since my box is metal I made sure to ground it by sanding away some of the paint by one of the mounting holes and attaching my ground connections to the case.

You definitely can omit the fuse for the PID. However, if something were to go wrong with it there is nothing there to protect it. The PID will be long gone before the 30A or 50A breaker trips. A fuse holder is cheap and easy to install so I see no reason to omit it. Again this goes back to my previous comment of understanding what each component does and why it's there.

Here's mine. It's wired just like crane's except the SSR control line goes to my PID output instead of the brew controller.

For a really simple boil controller this is hard to beat for $20

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10000W-220v...734?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a24b0182e

That's pretty sweet alien. Do you wire it to one leg of you power feed like an SSR or directly in-line?

I don't actually own one. I think it goes inline on the 220V hot wires.

It looks like you would wire it directly in-line with both 120V legs from the GFCI going to the AC input terminals and your heating element connected to the 2 AC output terminals.

If you are going to use this to control mash temps you have to ask yourself how good of temp control do you want. With this device you will have to fine tune the setting to hit an exact temperature, which may result in overshooting, undershooting and drifting over the course of a 1 hour mash. If you go with the PID controller route you can simply set it to 154 and walk away. If you think about it the PID controller measures the temp every second or so and adjusts the output to maintain the correct temp. With this device you will be the one looking at you mash temps and adjusting the dial to maintain the temp.

I'm not saying you can't get by with this, but if you are going to go throw the hassle of building a box to house this and buying connectors and cables I would say it would be worth the extra $50 or so to buy a PID controller upfront.

For the OP,

My system is pretty much what you're describing. I'm using a single element (5500) mounted in a keg, and a 10 gallon orange cooler. I just mash with the full volume of water. Check out the "I love no sparge brewing" thread by started by Sacc.

I'm using an Arduino for a controller, as I want to be able to continually add layers of complexity as knowledge and money allows. My plumbing & pumping is all done manually, I'm using the Arduino solely for temp control at the moment. It works as both a PID (to control for mash temp) and a PWM (to control boil duty cycle).

Admittedly, the cost of an Arduino, a power supply, and a display of some sort does approach the cost of an Auber PID. However, it is scalable. You can add more vessels and pump and valve control later without having to purchase more controllers.

FWIW, I agree whole heartedly with crane's last statement above. I don't see the point of going through the considerable trouble of building a control system, if it's not going to control anything for you?

crane said:

It looks like you would wire it directly in-line with both 120V legs from the GFCI going to the AC input terminals and your heating element connected to the 2 AC output terminals.

If you are going to use ...

...but if you are going to go throw the hassle of building a box to house this and buying connectors and cables I would say it would be worth the extra $50 or so to buy a PID controller upfront.

Click to expand...

I use a PID for my elements. I was looking at this to control a giant box fan I built out of an AC unit I had to replace. Right now it has one speed-- huricane.

I would absolutely consider using this. I don't need a PID because my BK is well insulated and only drops a few degrees an hour on cool days. I typically just bump on the heat for 30 seconds or so at 30 minutes and stir. I would use this, lets say at half power for that step and then again to control the boil rate.

For the record I currently use two 1500w 120v elements and turn on one or both depending on what I'm trying to do.