I think it's time for a new supplier

I was just in one of the local suppliers and I think it is time to considering switching. The new sales guy just finished telling me that there is no need to sterilize the bottles for beer they won't go off. "It's not like they will be sitting around for a month or 2".

Then he said that to just wash the primary. That'll be clean enough.

Ummm I'm new to this but I know that ain't right. I know the owner I wonder if he knows the new guy is telling people to use bad brewing practices.

I'd like to see the beer this guy makes. Well...I suppose I probably don't. He was right in telling you that you don't need to sterilize bottles though. Sanitation is needed, but sterilization is just not neccissary. I've had bottles in my cellar for well over a year.

Most of my bottled beers sit >2 months. Which is WHY I bottle them. Short term beers I keg.

I clean/sterilize my bottles in the dishwasher.

Now primaries definitely need to be sterilized, or you are taking a gamble that's not worth taking IMO.


Also, just because the hired help might have a different take on a process, doesn't mean I would jump ship. You buy their stuff, not their advice.

Not to derail, but I want to highlight suthern's point and point out the distinction between sterilize and sanitize. We don't sterilize our equipment - which would be to kill all life of any kind on our equipment. We do, with starsan or idophor, sanitize our equipment, which kills the noxious bugs which might cause an infection.

But the OP's point that we need to sanitize carefully is, of course, spot on.

SFBEER,

I feel you on that one. I don't go to my LHBS for supplies because the two employees who I've talked to are pretty sarcastic to new customers (I've only been in there twice). I understand (and even condone) messing around with people you know, but as a new customer and new brewer, if I walk in with a legitimate question that involves an answer of buying something at their store, I would like to be informed so in a positive way instead of looking at me like I shouldn't be there and that my business is a hindrance to them, as it involves questions that they are being requested to answer.

Whether it's bad advice or bad customer service, it's very difficult to get a second first impression.

Now, the major online players are great, and cheaper to boot. I'll gladly pay some shipping and save on product cost to be valued as a customer.

ThreeTaps said:

SFBEER,
Now, the major online players are great, and cheaper to boot. I'll gladly pay some shipping and save on product cost to be valued as a customer.

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I'm so busy with life that the convenience of having the items I want delivered to my door are worth it to me. Plus many times even with shipping the costs are lower than if I were to drive to my LHBS.

IXVolt said:

Most of my bottled beers sit >2 months. Which is WHY I bottle them. Short term beers I keg.

I clean/sterilize my bottles in the dishwasher.

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It is highly unlikely that anyone's dishwasher is sterilizing anything.

IXVolt said:

Now primaries definitely need to be sterilized, or you are taking a gamble that's not worth taking IMO.

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How big is your autoclave or pressure canner?

fratermus said:

It is highly unlikely that anyone's dishwasher is sterilizing anything.




How big is your autoclave or pressure canner?

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I have an image of a mad scientist in his basement "Igor, start the autoclave!"

I think the best thing to do is to let the owner know what this guy has said. I mean, if I owned the place, I would certainly question someone who gives out bad info like this. At least set him straight, if not replace him entirely.

He might be right. It really depends on hos fast you are chugging your beer. But he is wrong in giving you that advice. He has no idea how long your beer will sit in those bottles. Most of my bottled beer has sat for 6 months to a year.

As far as not sanitizing the primary, well, that is just plain stupid. Both situations woudl be like playing Russian Roulette with your beer. It's only a matter of time.

From my own experiences and hearing about others on this board it sounds like brew stores are just run by generally snobby people. I don't go often, due to cheaper online prices, but when I need to go to the store I do not want to encounter these guys that give bad or snobby answers. So I just walk in, buy my stuff and leave.

This board has provided every answer I need and there's not really any d-bags here to deal with. So I don't see any reason to ask them anything when I go into the store.

fratermus said:

It is highly unlikely that anyone's dishwasher is sterilizing anything.




How big is your autoclave or pressure canner?

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slightly OT, but

You can easily chemically sterilize with Ozone, Hydrogen Peroxide, or Bleach which is what I do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)


And yes I use my dishwasher to sanitize not sterilize, I mis-typed

I think its interesting that the definitions of words change with each field. In the medical field, sanitize is used to refer what you do to 'human' skin and sterilize is what can be done to non-living surfaces. Just a little FYI.
-Jefe-

IXVolt said:

slightly OT, but

You can easily chemically sterilize with Ozone, Hydrogen Peroxide, or Bleach which is what I do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)

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What do you sterilize and why? The reason I ask is two-fold:

1. If you sterilize your primary fermenter, for example, with bleach, when you rinse it with water (which you must do or it will kill the yeast) it is no longer sterile. And when you add your wort to the primary, the wort is boiled, but is definitely not sterile. Does that make any sense?

2. Sterilizing isn't common practice in homebrewing, sanitizing is - I use idophor, a no-rinse sanitizer, others use sanstar.

Also, I'd be cautious about saying that bleach sterilizes things. For example, best medical practices now say that bleach kits are not effective at killing Hepitatis on needles.

IXVolt said:

Most of my bottled beers sit >2 months. Which is WHY I bottle them. Short term beers I keg.

I clean/sterilize my bottles in the dishwasher.

Now primaries definitely need to be sterilized, or you are taking a gamble that's not worth taking IMO.


Also, just because the hired help might have a different take on a process, doesn't mean I would jump ship. You buy their stuff, not their advice.

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So does this mean I don't have to soak my bottles in sanitizer every time? They'll be clean enough coming out of the washer on the Hot water/Hot Dry cycle?

I don't think you need a new supplier. I'd just not ask him for any advice...EVER...

If anyone else does then I'd cut in and tell them that his advice is usually wrong...that's what I do at Best Buy...

He might have been hired just for the sake of needing an employee. There are some people (I don't understand why) that'll BS an answer rather than say they don't know the answer but find it out for you. I wouldn't switch suppliers, but maybe just let the owner know that the new staff member isn't up on their info, and in the future take their info with a grain of salt.

You don't have to sanitize anything if you are setting out to make prison hooch.

ThreeTaps said:

SFBEER,
Now, the major online players are great, and cheaper to boot. I'll gladly pay some shipping and save on product cost to be valued as a customer.

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I must be fortunate that my local shop seems to be at or near the price of the online places (not including shipping).

Sithdad said:

I must be fortunate that my local shop seems to be at or near the price of the online places (not including shipping).

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Not to mention, if I break something, my LHBS is open 7 days a week. They also seem to have knowledgeable people there to answer questions 7 days a week (and they have wifi so I can quickly hop on the iPhone and come to HBT to answer pressing questions).

Okay I think that I may have used the wrong wording. I guess I don't sterilize I sanitize. I give all my bottles a good washing with hot water then use some no rinse sanitizer. (Which ever I happen to have.) I sanitize all my equipment the same way. So far no infections to speak of.

The exact words of the new sales guy were "I just rinse them out with a little soapy water it should be fine." He followed this with "It is only beer it's not like you are going to let it sit around for a month or two"

This is a BEER and wine store. The brew 10 times the beer than they make wine.

dharmabuhm said:

So does this mean I don't have to soak my bottles in sanitizer every time? They'll be clean enough coming out of the washer on the Hot water/Hot Dry cycle?

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The advantage to running bottles through the dishwasher is the high heat cycle that some dishwashers have for the drying cycle. True commercial dishwashers, and some home dishwashers keep the heat high enough, long enough, that it will effectively santize your bottles - IF they are clean.

Most dishwashwers cannot get any spray up inside the bottles to remove any filth/growth/mold that is up inside the bottle.

There's more than a few threads in here about people's methods for using dishwashers to help santize bottles - some people have even used their ovens.

As stated before most home brewers sanitize, maybe disinfect in some cases.

A few like myself do sterilize. I grow yeast on slants. I sterilize test tubes and bottles at temps over 212'F and pressures of 15psi. I have a pressure cooker to do this. This also goes with the use of alcohol and a propane torch to burn off very small exterior surfaces on tubes & inoculation loops.

IMO - This is the only case where home brewers need to sterilize. The rest is just good cleaning and sanitizing.

FWIW - I have a friend who brews and has done so for 15 years and to this day uses no sanitizer. Just really cleans well and has a water heater cranked to the max so it super fricken hot.

PS - I'm a iodophor guy, I don't agree with the practice above.

My advice is to do your homework here, and just use your LHBS as a tool to buy your ingredients. I'm fortunate enough to have a really good LHBS, but even so, I rarely ask for advice.

JefeTheVol said:

I think its interesting that the definitions of words change with each field. In the medical field, sanitize is used to refer what you do to 'human' skin and sterilize is what can be done to non-living surfaces. Just a little FYI.
-Jefe-

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In the U.S., "sanitize", "disinfect" and "sterilize" are also regulated words insofar as their usage in describing cleaning products. (I think it came up in the interview on either Basic Brewing or The Sunday Session with the Starsan folks.) They mean different levels of effectiveness, so "sanitization" might eliminate 99.0% of transmissible agents, while "disinfecting" kills 99.9%, and "sterilization" kills 100%. Most, if not all, products that clean to a level of disinfecting or above will need to be rinsed.

As schlenkerla pointed out, for us homebrewers, most of the time sanitization is enough. This is primarily because the pH and alcohol level of beer is enough to kill or significantly hinder the growth of bugs that would otherwise infect the beer.

I have heard that some breweries do not go as far as sanitizing brand new bottles before filling them. I would expect that the level of contaminants is very low in a brand new bottle that has been in a case or pallet since it left the bottle-maker. As homebrewers however, we need to be more careful since we are usually reusing bottles whose handling has probably given them a good chance for getting something inside them (dust at best, saliva or cigarette butts at worst).

homebrewer_99 said:

I don't think you need a new supplier. I'd just not ask him for any advice...EVER...

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QFT. If I'm happy with the selection and prices, I'll buy there.

As far as snobby, rude or other socially unacceptable aspects mentioned elsewhere in this thread... Those are nonissues as I don't go in the lhbs to shoot the ****. The place isn't a barber shop and I'd wager that most of the employees that act as if they are interested in your recipe do so to be nice or at least appear nice. I can't count the times I've stood in line waiting to have my crap checked out because somebody wanted to chitchat with the clerk about this guy they know who brews all grain or how they think their brew is as potent as moonshine.