The Lazy Man's GF Beer

ChristianAlpha-RuBrew said:

That...makes sense. With all due respect to all to you poor people who cant drink real beer. The only reason I would make a gluten free fermented beverage is in hopes of getting my wife drunk.

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Not a fan of wine, cider, or most hard alcohols eh?

Pretty sure we don't go through all this trouble just to get wives/GFs drunk, although that is a nice side bonus.

dkershner said:

Not a fan of wine, cider, or most hard alcohols eh?

Pretty sure we don't go through all this trouble just to get wives/GFs drunk, although that is a nice side bonus.

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Actully I started out making wine, still do, and cider, and mead....ehI I do strongly dislike hard liquer though.

And hex no the wife/gf drunk thing was a joke. I do all this work cause I love it. I keep things happy at home just by cutting the grass, and picking up my socks

You know what.... All this hanging out in this thread makes me wanna brew a sorgum beer just......cause I can. I think I even know someone who cant eat bread.

ChristianAlpha-RuBrew said:

You know what.... As this hanging out in this thread makes me wanna brew a sorgum beer just......cause I can. I think I even know someone who cant eat bread.

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Well, let us know if you need any help.

I also just hoped you realized that living gluten free really isn't that limiting unless you currently eat a lot of processed or fast food. With a little effort, you can create just about anything without the use of gluten.

dkershner said:

Well, let us know if you need any help.

I also just hoped you realized that living gluten free really isn't that limiting unless you currently eat a lot of processed or fast food. With a little effort, you can create just about anything without the use of gluten.

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Yes, and I'll take you up on that offer. Post a link where somebody sells a kit, so I can order it. I havn't done a kit in a long time, and this gives me a reason.

ChristianAlpha-RuBrew said:

Yes, and I'll take you up on that offer. Post a link where somebody sells a kit, so I can order it. I havn't done a kit in a long time, and this gives me a reason.

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Here's a link where someone used a kit he ordered:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/trying-out-gf-kit-165406/

Otherwise, just switch out the malt extract with sorghum syrup- I get mine from Midwest Supplies and brew as usual. Oh- any steeping grains and yeast should be gluten free too- look for those here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/gluten-free-beer-ingredient-list-172558/

Rice flour and tapioca flour are about $1/lb at the Chinese/Oriental groceries around San Diego. Rise flour is a good substitue for 'cake flour' which is low-gluten flour. Bread flour is high gluten.

Interesting about the Clarex. My gluten prob is chest pains, but I seem to handle a couple comercial beers OK, but not my home brew Flat Ass Tired. I was thinking super filtration, but an enzyme makes good sense too.

Hato Mugi sounds worth a try.

Now that I am up on the current gluten free threads, I'll be posting my recipe for Malted Oat & Sugar beer. Heavy body, good color, lacks the harshness of Sorghum, and the flavor of malt. Bit the best I've come up with after 4-5 other experiments.

Off now to pour a glass to take a pic to post. Then I 'll have to dump it, kind of early for me. But at 90°, maybe not TOO early.

casebrew said:

Now that I am up on the current gluten free threads, I'll be posting my recipe for Malted Oat & Sugar beer. Heavy body, good color, lacks the harshness of Sorghum, and the flavor of malt. Bit the best I've come up with after 4-5 other experiments.

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If it's lacking flavor you could try adding some adjuncts. I've been experimenting with roasted teff...it adds quite a bit of a roasted grain flavor. It's the amount I'm working on now...too little obviously doesn't impart much and too much imparts too much flavor, almost alkaline artificial flavor. But a dark roast in the oven and added with some molasses seems to be working well for me (of course you have to realize I make some bizarre concoctions...my latest banana oatmeal roasted teff and agave nectar IPA hits the palate pretty hard...in a yummy way).

Doesn't Teff have gluten? I'll look before I brew.

But back towrads the OP, anybody try DPPIV ? It is an enzyme available in pills from health food stores. A couple of the pills might have plenty of the same active enzymes as clara-ferm. Both are from aspergillus niger. There have been some discussions as to whether it works when taken with a gluteny food. I did use up a bottle of it a year or two ago. I may have even posted the question here? But never did try it at fermentation. And I was probably thinking of adding to the mash, the usual time to add enzymes.

(ETA: Yes, I did propose DPPIV enzymes for making gluten free beer, in this thread, < https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/gluten-free-brewing-dpp-iv-enzymes-26737/ > Hmm, I wonder what the patent date of Claro-ferm is? )

Anyways, the pills might be lots cheaper than the -ferm product that looks to cost $8 for my usual batch size, an 8 gallon tripple. Plus shipping.

casebrew said:

Doesn't Teff have gluten?

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Nope Teff along with somewhat similar Amaranth are gluten-free.

I don't know anything about DPPIV, so I will leave that one to others to answer.

I've malted 'pearl barley' from the health food store, and seen amaranth there. And it grows in my back yard, volunteers for bird seed. Leafs are good salad too. But I yanked them all this year as weeds in the tater patch, hard to tell them apart until the seed heads show. Maybe next year I won't be so hasty.

But then, malted oats cost me $3/lb to my door. And the dppiv looks like a good possibility...

Has anyone else tried this and had good results? I'm surprised there isn't very much feedback on this one considering most people seem to want to avoid the sorghum taste and it's relatively inexpensive and easy to do.

I've been planning on brewing a gluten free beer for a friend of mine for Christmas. I ordered all the ingredients for Lcasanova's wit recipe, but I also plan on trying Clarity Ferm to make a barley or even wheat beer.

I don't know much about gluten sensitivity or Celiac's disease but my friend was diagnosed recently and hates that she can't drink beer anymore. She heard about some brewery in Spain making gluten free barley beer and I remembered this post so I thought I would give it a try.

I wasn't able to follow the link to the article in the original post, so here is the URL in case anyone else had the same problem.

http://www.examiner.com/beer-in-nat...er-offers-real-beer-taste-for-celiac-impaired

In the article, Charlie Papazian talks about making a beer with barley and wheat using Clarity Ferm. He sent it to a lab and it tested less than 5 ppm for gluten.

I know I won't try it. I don't want to give a beer to someone who is gluten sensitive or celiac that isn't 100% gluten free. Just because it is < 5 or 20 or 10 ppm gluten doesn't mean that someone won't have a problem with it. I think that is why there isn't much going on with this stuff...at least not on this forum.

I ran this by the lady awhile ago and she seemed OK with the idea. I may try it out on some beer. Overall though, I would rather try and make something delicious rather than just having a body stripped barley beer.

Oh, and don't try it with a wheat beer, nothing can strip out that much gluten. Barley beers are already low in gluten.

I've used it and had moderate success. A celiac friend volunteered as the litmus test. It seems that he still gets a reaction. But, a much milder one than usual. I've also noticed a decrease in the beer's mouth feel and body when using it. If you are going to try it, I'd recommend it on a fairly low gravity beer with no wheat.

My friend mostly liked to drink watery domestics so that sounds perfect. I've given her all the information I have about it including some things you guys have posted and I think she still wants to try it. I guess if it doesn't work out I will still be able to drink the beer so it won't be a huge loss.

She just developed problems with gluten 6 months or a year ago maybe. Does that mean that she might be less sensitive than other people? I'm not really sure how this works, I didn't know you could just become gluten sensitive after living most your life without having any problems.

JumboBlimpJumbo said:

My friend mostly liked to drink watery domestics so that sounds perfect. I've given her all the information I have about it including some things you guys have posted and I think she still wants to try it. I guess if it doesn't work out I will still be able to drink the beer so it won't be a huge loss.

She just developed problems with gluten 6 months or a year ago maybe. Does that mean that she might be less sensitive than other people? I'm not really sure how this works, I didn't know you could just become gluten sensitive after living most your life without having any problems.

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From what I understand, very few, if any, people are born with it. Since it is pretty much a 100% American disease, you can probably say with some certainty that it is diet related.

In any case, just because she just developed it means nothing for how sensitive she is. The really important thing is to let your system recover after eating some gluten though. The real problems lie when people eat some every day, then it can kill you. A little bit now and then will tax your system, but nothing more.

mrkstel said:

I've used it and had moderate success. A celiac friend volunteered as the litmus test. It seems that he still gets a reaction. But, a much milder one than usual. I've also noticed a decrease in the beer's mouth feel and body when using it. If you are going to try it, I'd recommend it on a fairly low gravity beer with no wheat.

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I did a batch and my wife had a glass and loved the flavor (also a light-bodied barley-only beer); however, she might have had a minor reaction, but not enough to confirm it was anything related to the beer.

That said, she decided not to drink anymore as it was just too risky. Sure it might not be a problem, but she preferred to play it safe with the other beers I've made for her that are actually GF.

Despite starting this post, I'd hesitate to even suggest it anymore as some studies have come out identifying that it's not the gluten protein that's the problem, rather a few of the gliadins within the protein. So if you break up the protein those gliadins likely still exist, just in an undetectable by gluten-tests fashion.

My Verdict: Risk > Reward

I bought some of the clarity ferm stuff at the LHBS in Tulsa. The guy running the store said that his wife can't eat gluten, and when he makes her beers with this she still experiences some slight symptoms, similar to what you guys are saying. My friend is willing to try it out and see how it affects her, but in the end if she decides not to drink it, more beer for me.

I'm also interested in using this product for a gluten free beer using liquid yeast like some of you guys were discussing. Has anyone tried this out? I brewed up a batch of Lcasanova's gluten free wit last week using Safbrew T-58 dry yeast, which I have never tried before. I feel like it might turn out more true to style if I used a liquid belgian wit yeast (aside from the beer being clear after using clarity ferm). Does using a vial of liquid yeast cause a reaction in people? I would think that a few milliliters pitched into 5 gallons wouldn't be very much, but then again people are sensitive down in the parts per million range so I don't know.

JumboBlimpJumbo said:

I'm also interested in using this product for a gluten free beer using liquid yeast like some of you guys were discussing. Has anyone tried this out? I brewed up a batch of Lcasanova's gluten free wit last week using Safbrew T-58 dry yeast, which I have never tried before. I feel like it might turn out more true to style if I used a liquid belgian wit yeast (aside from the beer being clear after using clarity ferm). Does using a vial of liquid yeast cause a reaction in people? I would think that a few milliliters pitched into 5 gallons wouldn't be very much, but then again people are sensitive down in the parts per million range so I don't know.

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Honestly, just use a White Labs yeast and you'll be fine. White Labs quotes their yeast as being 12 ppm for a 35 ml vial. If you take and dilute that 35 ml in a 5.25 gal (19,875 ml) carboy, then you're looking at 12ppm * 35ml / 19875 ml = 0.021 ppm. That's below ANY detectable range (100x below detectable and 1000x below non-GF) and even the most sensitive of celiacs would be hard-pressed to prove any ill-effects are from the yeast.

If you wanted though, you could get a vial, make a starter with say 1/10th of the vial and reduce the ppm to 0.002 ppm, but that's pretty much overkill.

Oh, and don't add clarity ferm to try and knock out that last 0.021 ppm...it's not worth the degradation of the beer for an imperceptible (and possibly errant -see previous post-) change in the gluten content.

aggieotis said:

Despite starting this post, I'd hesitate to even suggest it anymore as some studies have come out identifying that it's not the gluten protein that's the problem, rather a few of the gliadins within the protein. So if you break up the protein those gliadins likely still exist, just in an undetectable by gluten-tests fashion.

My Verdict: Risk > Reward

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Here are some links giving some more insight behind my conclusion:
Researchers Pinpoint Cause of Gluten Allergies
Comprehensive, Quantitative Mapping of T Cell Epitopes in Gluten in Celiac Disease

Here's a bit more about the EZ test.
"The EZ Gluten strips are based on the Skerritt antibody, which sees both the gliadin and glutenin fractions of gluten. We prefer this antibody because people with gluten sensitivity have shown reactions to both fractions, and in our experience we have seen samples which come up positive with a Skerritt-based test that are negative with a gliadin assay.

That being said, there are a lot of factors which might effect the results of testing in beer, especially when enzymes are added. There is the processing of the product itself, the grains that the beer is made from, and the possibility that the enzyme is interfering with the test rather than destroying the gluten in the sample."

It seems that malt vinegar also doesn't trigger a gluten detection on the strips.

Oh, and of course: "Our goal with the EZ Gluten is to have a screening test with the lowest possible limit of detection. There is no way to prove the absence of gluten or any allergen, and I agree that all those who are sensitive should know that there is a limit to the sensitivity of all tests, and that some samples are going to fall below that detection limit."

they have updated their site and information. they claim that it works on beer now, and show a series of ez gluten test strips on barley, it looks like it works but at a higher level than wheat.

BTW Fawcett oat malt tested high positive with this, my gf beers test as negative.

The response I got was an inquery I made to them after seeing the Zymurgy article where even with a test Papazian said he had some detectable gluten amounts in his Slithy Trove beer. I received the response on 1/18/2011.
The key point of the strips I think are to say "Yes, there is definately gluten in this" vs, "It's probably under the limit (providing there isn't an interaction problem.)" Either way, there are plenty of people who can't trust this as a complete test, even if the strips test as negative.

I had asked about the vinegar tests where they say they "never had a vinegar sample test positive" and that included a malt vinegar and malt vinegar is essentially unhopped beer that had the acetobacter eat away the alcohol. No distillation involved. (compared to white vinegar which is distilled and watered down). (And yes, I'm really looking forward to turning one of my gluten free beers into vinegar at some point.)

Some barley beers were said to not show a positive, but people still have a reaction. Same thing with malt vinegar.

Personally, I just feel safer when I don't randomly eat things sourced from gluten and things with a high chance of cross contamination, so it was more informative than anything. I'd probably buy strips if I traveled outside the US, or didn't trust the waiter or something.

Hi Everyone!

I am new to site and to brewing in general. I actually have my first wine in clearing stages now, I think it is about 10-15 days away from bottling. I did not see this mentioned but figured I would let you know about this beer if you did not know already.

Daura - it is from Spain and certified but GF society because it is less the 6 ppm of gluten. It is made from real barely. Tastes like stronger lite beer if that makes sense lol. It is made by Estralla. I bet you they use this protein eliminator that is talked about on this thread. Either way, figured I would let you know. I have Celiac and have no reaction, other then paying $9 for 4 of them lol. I am going to be making the honey kit soon and look forward to learning from you guys and gals!

FYI. Celiacs are born with Celiac disease. You do not just get it. You sometimes do not develop or diagnose symtoms until late in life. It is one of the misdiagnosed diseases around.

pufffee said:

FYI. Celiacs are born with Celiac disease. You do not just get it. You sometimes do not develop or diagnose symtoms until late in life. It is one of the misdiagnosed diseases around.

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You are born with the genetic capability of developing the disease and have the ability to pass it to offspring, but if there are no symptoms, there is no disease. This is why you can test children nowadays to see if they have the possibility of developing it.

Also, Daura definitely uses Clarex to make their beer. There are a few other European examples as well. They have either been listed in this thread or another...forget. No American company has done this yet because the FDA defines gluten free as 'comprised of no gluten containing ingredients'. Barley doesn't meet this definition and so is not deemed gluten free.

I found a lab that will do a sub 20ppm test for gluten. My next several batches I am going to run those tests. I'll do a kit and one if these and see what results I get. It will be a early winter before I getbsome numbers though.

DKershner said:

From what I understand, very few, if any, people are born with it. Since it is pretty much a 100% American disease, you can probably say with some certainty that it is diet related.

In any case, just because she just developed it means nothing for how sensitive she is. The really important thing is to let your system recover after eating some gluten though. The real problems lie when people eat some every day, then it can kill you. A little bit now and then will tax your system, but nothing more.

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Well I was born with it but the genetics track back to northern europe as the start not America, not that it matters. Europe has been well ahead on the gluten free front for decades. America is only starting to recognize it, regardless there are certainly different levels of sensitivity...as with most things I suppose. Me one beer even light and I notice...

tmwilkin said:

I found a lab that will do a sub 20ppm test for gluten. My next several batches I am going to run those tests. I'll do a kit and one if these and see what results I get. It will be a early winter before I getbsome numbers though.

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I would love to know where you're having it tested, how much it costs, and what their margin of error is. Not sure if I'll ever use it but its great to have that resource if needed.

I would also like to comment on "if there are no symptoms, there is no disease", and please keep in mind I'm not trying to start a debate or argument, merely wish to voice my opinion. I disagree with the statement...if I have a brain tumor that grows to the size of a grapefruit for 5 years and don't know about it until I slip into a coma, that doesn't mean I didn't have a disease for 5 years. There may be reasons for scientific and/or medical definition of disease, but from a practical standpoint it doesn't matter. If someone has anemia or osteoporosis but doesn't have any gastro-intestinal issues, that doesn't mean they don't have a disease just because anemia is not considered a "symptom" of celiac disease. Just my opinion.

tmwilkin said:

Well I was born with it but the genetics track back to northern europe as the start not America, not that it matters. Europe has been well ahead on the gluten free front for decades. America is only starting to recognize it, regardless there are certainly different levels of sensitivity...as with most things I suppose. Me one beer even light and I notice...

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Indeed, its not American in origin - if anywhere its northern European. As I understand it, its widespread enough in Finland that McDonalds commonly carries GF buns for the burgers. My mom's side of the family is from Finland so.. we're thinking thats where it came from.

That being said, I was diagnosed celiac while testing for general stomach problems but "lucked out" and got the "silent" variety. Its good because I can eat bread and drink beer without my innards feeling like they're ripping themselves out. Its bad because if I don't know something has gluten, my innards still rip themselves out without me knowing it. (Autoimmune disorders are so WEIRD to me).

I try, I read labels, I stay away from known gluten sources like soy sauce at a Chinese restaurant, but I think my lifestyle is "generally gluten free" at best. As such, I'd be really interested to learn more about this Clarex stuff.

"Noontime" I'm using a company called Microbac out of Boulder, with a quantative test of about $80 per test. I'm a few weeks away from getting a sample tested but I have two batches to test. One traditional brew pumpkin ale control and a second batch with clari-ferm.

We'll see what the data shows in the end.

QUESTION:

You are supposed to use the clarex at the start of fermentation. What if I added it, say, 2 or 3 days after pitching yeast into primary? Should be noted that my only desired effect from use is gluten reduction, not clarification. Would a few days late in a multiple week fermentation still reduce? I would think so...

Okay, so I just finished brewing up a DIPA, I'll probably pitch the yeast for it tomorrow. Williams Brewing is shipping my Brewer's Clarex tomorrow Priority Mail, will it be too late to add it by the time it arrives?

From what I have read you should be fine. Clarex is an enzyme that breaks down the gluten into smaller molecular components.

By the way, I just bottled my first brew with Clarity Ferm, an ESB. My wife has a gluten allergy and had no reaction to any of the hydrometer sample she tried!

tmwilkin said:

"Noontime" I'm using a company called Microbac out of Boulder, with a quantative test of about $80 per test. I'm a few weeks away from getting a sample tested but I have two batches to test. One traditional brew pumpkin ale control and a second batch with clari-ferm.

We'll see what the data shows in the end.

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I'm really interested to see what the results from these tests were. I've got a large number of friends who can't have gluten and this sounds like a great alternative to 100% GF brewing.

Can anyone else post their results? A lot of people said they would try this but only a couple posted the results.

Thanks everyone!

I guess that I am in the minority of the minority here , but as I mentioned, I attempt gluten 'free' beers because my wife has a more traditional allergy rather than Celiac's. But for us, after going through about 15 bottles there have been no ill effects. We haven't had more than one or two a night, so I can't say that someone could use this on a beer and then go on a bender, but for us it is so far so good.

The results have actually been so good that I have made an ESB that we are drinking now, I have a kolsch and a dubbel about ready to bottle, and I plan to make a brown IPA tomorrow - all with brewer's clarex.

Since you don't have a GF limitation I'd give it a try and if some of your friends are brave enough to try a few sips, then you will know. If it works for them, that's fantastic. If it doesn't, the stuff was meant to knock out chill haze and it really does a fantastic job of making a crystal clear beer.

Flatspin said:

I guess that I am in the minority of the minority here , but as I mentioned, I attempt gluten 'free' beers because my wife has a more traditional allergy rather than Celiac's. But for us, after going through about 15 bottles there have been no ill effects. We haven't had more than one or two a night, so I can't say that someone could use this on a beer and then go on a bender, but for us it is so far so good.

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Awesome, thanks for the update! Can you or anyone else talk a little about when you used it, how much, etc. Anyone know if more is required for a higher gravity beer? Darker specialty malts affect it? etc etc..

Thanks!

BVH

When you get the stuff, it comes in 5 small plastic vials. One is enough for five gallons of regular strength wort. If you are making something like a 1.100 RIS two might make sense, but I haven't used it on a beer of that strength yet. (Now I want to though!)

As far as color goes, it really doesn't seem to matter. I've made a kolsch, an ESB and a dubble with clarity ferm and found no problems. And that makes sense because darker beer doesn't have a higher quantity of grains, they are just roasted longer.

After I posted my last response, I had a thought regarding high gravity wort. Clarity ferm is an enzyme, therefore it doesn't get consumed by breaking down the gluten protein. Because of this property, the limiting factor in its effectiveness is the volume of the wort, not the protein concentration. So it would seem that gravity shouldn't play a big role. Also, its just good practice to leave a big beer in the primary longer than a regular beer, so this should give the enzyme more time to break down all the gluten molecules. I am not sure if the stuff would settle out over time, but if you are worried about it you could gently shake the fermenter to bring it back up into suspension.

Flatspin - Thanks for the tips. I'm only brewing 4% beers this year anyway so I don't see the gravity question being a big concern but I'd love to be able to do a DIPA or RIS with it at somepoint. I know my friends would as well.

I don't understand the properties of an enzyme well enough to know if more is better. I'll do some reading on that and post it here if I find anything or specifically anything about this process.

I'd like to know what ratios the big breweries are using, as they are able to label it Gluten Free.

I know a few people mentioned loss of body and head retention. Now that you have been using it for a few batches are you seeing this happen? Anything to do to adjust for it?

It probably does thin the mouthfeel a little, but its not nearly as dramatic as some might claim. If you are concerned, add some maltodextrin to your boil or mash a few degrees warmer. I usually mash at the higher end of the spectrum and have been very satisfied with the way the beer turned out.