Efficiency problem

Ok, I've been noticing a recurrent problem in my brew process:

After my mash, and after my sparge, I am sometimes getting too much wort, and I end up having to boil for 2 hours to get to my target level. After that, my OG is generally under where I want it. (not-so-hot efficiency). My efficiency is running about 60-65%. I have hit 70-75%, but its an exception if I do.

I'm puzzled about the efficiency issue. I do all grain with a HERMS system. I've tried different circulation rates, different mash lengths, I've tried stirring my mash and leaving it alone. I've tried different sparge rates, and I have played around with my sparge process on several different levels. A possible problem is that I pump my sparge water up hill with a March Pump, and if I'm not careful, my whole sparge takes less than 15 minutes. To that effect, I was careful on my last batch and did an hour long sparge. My efficiency was still less than 70%.


I need some expert ideas and thoughts here.

Thanks.

Sure. . .I'll have to post a recipe later when I have access to my other computer with promash on it. For example, setting promash at 70% efficiency (in high hopes), with a target OG of 1.074 (today's session), I ended up with 1.072 and only 4 gallons of wort.

I grist my own grain with a crank-n-stein 2 roller mill. A couple of batches back, I tried making my grist a little finer, and ended up with a stuck sparge, and the same efficiency problem. So I spaced my rollers back where they were.

If you ended up with 4 gallons how much did you start with. On a regulr brew OG 1.054 I collect about 7.5 gallons and boil down to about 5.5. For my red that's in the fermenter I had 12.25 lbs of grain, collected 8 gallons and boiled down to 5.5 with an OG of 1.063. For a gravity of 1.075 you need about 14 lbs of grain right? you should be collecting about 8.5 gallons or so.

Brewsmith said:

Can you give an example with a recipe? How many pounds of grain? Amount wort collected and how much ended up with after boil?

Have you been milling your own grain? Or is it crushed somewhere else?
​

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Here's the 5 gallon recipe that I brewed today. Ended up with 4 gallons, and 1.072 OG.


IRV Imperial Stout

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

13-E Stout, American Stout

Min OG: 1.050 Max OG: 1.075
Min IBU: 35 Max IBU: 75
Min Clr: 30 Max Clr: 48 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 15.00
Anticipated OG: 1.074 Plato: 17.95
Anticipated SRM: 52.6
Anticipated IBU: 51.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 5.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.063 SG 15.40 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
83.3 12.50 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
3.3 0.50 lbs. Black Patent Malt Great Britain 1.027 525
3.3 0.50 lbs. Chocolate Malt Great Britain 1.034 475
3.3 0.50 lbs. Roasted Barley Great Britain 1.029 575
6.7 1.00 lbs. Crystal 90L America 1.033 90

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Columbus Whole 12.00 48.0 60 min.
0.50 oz. Cascade Whole 5.75 3.1 15 min.
0.50 oz. Cascade Whole 5.75 0.0 Dry Hop
0.50 oz. Goldings - E.K. Whole 4.75 0.0 Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP001 California Ale


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 15.00
Water Qts: 15.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 3.75 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 152 Time: 60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 170 Time: 5
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 0


Total Mash Volume Gal: 4.95 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.

The promash spces are set at a 60 min boil, so it's only giving you the OG 1.063 before the boil that you would need at 5.88 gallons to then boil down to 5 gallons at 1.074. However, for that much grain you need to collect much more than 5.88 gallons.

More sparge water and a bigger burner?

I taste everything, every step. Eating my spent grains gives me nothing but hulls- no sweetness, no crunchy/chewy...um...bodies? I usually get like 1,060 for 5 gallons from 10 lbs. I sparge 'til the run off isn't sweet, in about 10-15 mins, about 7-8 gallons of wort. I dunno from efficiency, just taste.

From discussions here about sparging and the variations thereof that all seem to work, I've always just thought of vorlaffing, spargeing, runnoff, etc, of "use hot water to rinse the sugars out", not too much, not so hot as to make tea.

Brewsmith said:

If you ended up with 4 gallons how much did you start with. On a regulr brew OG 1.054 I collect about 7.5 gallons and boil down to about 5.5. For my red that's in the fermenter I had 12.25 lbs of grain, collected 8 gallons and boiled down to 5.5 with an OG of 1.063. For a gravity of 1.075 you need about 14 lbs of grain right? you should be collecting about 8.5 gallons or so.

Click to expand...

I estimate I had about 8 gallons collected.

Well, I've onlly made 5 batches on this system, so I'm still dialing it in somewhat. I'm just trying to figure out where the efficiency is going.

I ran the promash water calculator on this and it pointed to almost 11 gallons, which I used. I mashed in about 15 pounds of grain, collected about 8 gallons of wort. I ended up close to my target, but that's because I measured specific gravity during the boil to know where I was. I ended up with slightly less than what I intended on.

This has been a recurrent problem. I guess I should stop worrying, as my beer always turns out fine, even if it isn't at the gravity that I intended.

From your ProMash report, I think the answer is obvious.

It is the 0 in the sparge time field.

But seriously, I suspect that you are not rinsing all the sugars out during the sparge. What is the gravity of the final runnings at the end of the sparge? (A refractometer makes this much easier.)

It should be close to 1.010. A higher reading would indicate that you need to collect more wort, and then reduce it to the required volume with a longer and/or harder boil.

I usually use about 9# grain, and collect 6.5 - 7g, which gets reduced to about 5.25g with an OG in the mid 50's.

If I use more grain, I either have to collect a larger pre-boil volume, or accept a lower efficiency.

-a.

ajf said:

From your ProMash report, I think the answer is obvious.

It is the 0 in the sparge time field.

But seriously, I suspect that you are not rinsing all the sugars out during the sparge. What is the gravity of the final runnings at the end of the sparge? (A refractometer makes this much easier.)

It should be close to 1.010. A higher reading would indicate that you need to collect more wort, and then reduce it to the required volume with a longer and/or harder boil.

I usually use about 8# grain, and collect 6.5 - 7g, which gets reduced to about 5.25g with an OG in the mid 50's.

If I use more grain, I either have to collect a larger pre-boil volume, or accept a lower efficiency.

-a.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't that put your efficiency at about 95%? What is Max practical efficiency?

Sean said:

Wouldn't that put your efficiency at about 95%? What is Max practical efficiency?

Click to expand...

Sorry, typo. I meant to say 9# grain, not 8, but my fingers don't always hit the right keys. I edited the post.

According to ProMash, this gives me an efficiency of about 85%, and unless I do something wrong, I usually get within a few percentage points of that figure.

Yesterday, I got it up to 93%, but I lied a bit about the volume, and over sparged. After correcting the volume, the efficiency dropped to 89%, but I expect that I'll be able to taste the tannins extracted by the over sparging.

-a.

Well, you know, it was 1.040 after the sparge yesterday. (I actually tested it, so I think you're on to something there). That's why I ask these type of (stupid) questions on here--I always get smart answers.

OK, if the final runnings have a gravity of 1.040, you have a large amount of sugar left in the grains. I would guess that the mash went well, and your problem is post mash.
Your ProMash report shows a mas out time of 5 minutes. Does this mean that you took 5 minutes to raise the temperature from 152 to 170, or that you waited until the entire mash had reached 170, and then waited for 5 minutes?
In the first instance, I doubt that your mash will have been heated to anything like 170. In the second instance, how do you know the entire mash is at 170? Just because the output from the heat exchanger is set to 170 doesn't mean that the entire mash has reached that temperature.
From my experience (without HERMS), I can say that sparging at a true 170 degrees is about 10% more efficient than sparging with 170 degree water onto a grist that is 15 or so degrees cooler.

-a.

There are 3 ideas that come to mind for efficiency problems:

1st: crush. Are the husk and endosperm well separated? Are you getting a fair bit of flour as well?

2nd: mash. is the starch test at the end of the mash negative?

3rd: sparging. If you are fly sparging, have you tried batch sparging yet. Batch sparging is known to be more reliable in terms of efficiency due to the lack of channeling issues.

Kai

Do you mash in a kettle? Is it a false bottome setup?

I'd focus on your grind - almost all efficiency problems can be traced to a poor grind. Because you ground it finer once and gotr a stuck sparge doesn't mean that it was too fine - since you're pumping the runoff you may have compacted the grainbed too much or something else. Do you use foundation water to float your mash when doughing in?

I'm guessing you have a ball valve on the outlet of your pump to control flow. If not you need to add one so that you aren't sucking on your mash too hard & can sparge slowly enough.

There are a million factors that can help or hurt efficiency - but you should not need to collect too much wort & boil down. Efficiency will go down if you make a big beer (I'd say over OG 75) - but for most beers collecting 6.5gallons of wort should be enough for a 5gallon batch.

I wouldn't focus on things like mashing out - their effect on efficiency is secondary to basic techniques like grinding & sparge speed & channeling in your mash.

If I had to narrow down the problem, I'd agree with Kaiser with his #1. You can probably go with a finer crush for the grain. If you are collecting 8 gallons or more you should be getting at least over 70%. For my system, 15 lbs is more than I can handle. The most I've ever done is 14 Lbs and that maxed it out. I think I collected close to 9 gallons and did a 2 hr boil. Fermenter had 5.25 gallons at 1.073 for efficiency of 80%.

ajf said:

Your ProMash report shows a mas out time of 5 minutes. Does this mean that you took 5 minutes to raise the temperature from 152 to 170, or that you waited until the entire mash had reached 170, and then waited for 5 minutes?
In the second instance, how do you know the entire mash is at 170? Just because the output from the heat exchanger is set to 170 doesn't mean that the entire mash has reached that temperature.
From my experience (without HERMS), I can say that sparging at a true 170 degrees is about 10% more efficient than sparging with 170 degree water onto a grist that is 15 or so degrees cooler.

-a.

Click to expand...

wow, where do I start: There's a lot of good ideas and questions here. First off, when I state that mash out is 170 for 5 minutes, I wait until the temp reaches 170, then hold that for 5 minutes.

There are 3 ideas that come to mind for efficiency problems:

1st: crush. Are the husk and endosperm well separated? Are you getting a fair bit of flour as well?

2nd: mash. is the starch test at the end of the mash negative?

3rd: sparging. If you are fly sparging, have you tried batch sparging yet. Batch sparging is known to be more reliable in terms of efficiency due to the lack of channeling issues.

Click to expand...

1st: the crush, I feel, is acceptable. The husk and the endosperm is well separated, and there is a good deal of flour.

2nd: The starch test at the end of my mash has been negative (no color change with iodine)

3rd: I'm not really "fly sparging." I have sparge ring, and the process is this: I raise the water level in the mash/lauter tun above the grain level, and infuse sparge water at the same rate as the wort runs out.

Here's a picture of my HERMs in action (sparge ring setup)--note--I raised the sparge ring up to take the picture to show wort coming from the ring.

I'd focus on your grind - almost all efficiency problems can be traced to a poor grind. Because you ground it finer once and gotr a stuck sparge doesn't mean that it was too fine - since you're pumping the runoff you may have compacted the grainbed too much or something else. Do you use foundation water to float your mash when doughing in?

Click to expand...

I always use foundation water when mashing in. The time I had a stuck sparge was when I refined the grain too much and had a LOT of flour.

Brewsmith said:

If I had to narrow down the problem, I'd agree with Kaiser with his #1. You can probably go with a finer crush for the grain. If you are collecting 8 gallons or more you should be getting at least over 70%. For my system, 15 lbs is more than I can handle. The most I've ever done is 14 Lbs and that maxed it out. I think I collected close to 9 gallons and did a 2 hr boil. Fermenter had 5.25 gallons at 1.073 for efficiency of 80%.

Click to expand...

Well, maybe I'll try crushing my grain a little bit finer. I'm getting the feeling that the problem lies more with the sparge than anything, but at this rate, I'm willing to try anything.

I wish I could say I do this with milling my own grain, but I'd be lying. I have the LHBS crush it for me on their preset. When I eventually get my own mill I may be having the same problems.

To be quite forthcoming, I've played around with the crush a little, and it doesn't seem to affect much. The one time I actually got a stuck sparge after doing a fine crush with all barley malt, I still ended up under my target efficiency.

Then it is quite puzzling. How long is it taking you to sparge? The only other thing that I can think of is that there is some major channeling going on in the MLT. How close is that ring to the wall of tthe MLT?

Well, after reading all the posts on here, the only conclusion I can reasonably come to is that my sparge is deficient.

I'm careful to keep the sparge ring in the middle of the tun. The problem (I think), lies in the process. I pump my sparge water up from the hot liquor tun using a MARCH pump (3.8 gallons/min), so if I'm not careful, my sparge may take 3 minutes. I choke down the pump to keep it around 30 minutes. I usually have around 6 gallons of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.

What are you using at the bottom? A false bottom, braid, manifold?

I'm using a false bottom.

I'm still puzzled then.

It's gotta be the sparge. I can't think of anything else.

Biermann said:

Well, after reading all the posts on here, the only conclusion I can reasonably come to is that my sparge is deficient.

I'm careful to keep the sparge ring in the middle of the tun. The problem (I think), lies in the process. I pump my sparge water up from the hot liquor tun using a MARCH pump (3.8 gallons/min), so if I'm not careful, my sparge may take 3 minutes. I choke down the pump to keep it around 30 minutes. I usually have around 6 gallons of sparge water for a 5 gallon batch.

Click to expand...

I thought fly sparging was supposed to be an hour-long (or longer) process? I've only batch-sparged, so I'm not the expert in this area. Can you choke the pump down further? You could also give batch sparging a go, as well.

I vote you try a batch sparge or two... some setups work better with a fly sparge, some with a batch sparge...

I regularly get 80-85% efficiency with a batch sparge in my 10 gallon Rubbermaid cooler using a bazooka-T screen

If doing a batch sparge increases your efficiency, then most likely you are correct and it is the way you are running your fly sparge setup

Here's some great info on conducting a batch sparge:
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

and here is some good info for setting up Promash to balance your batch:
http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=40175

HTH,

later,

mikey

Thanks.

I've batch sparged in the past, but not with this system. I could give it a go next time around.

I can also choke down the pump more too, so I'll have to try that in the future as well.
The next time around, I'm going to collect more wort and boil it down more if needed.

I don't think you can choke only one side of the system. Sparge water is suposed to be 1/2 inch above the malt. If you are only choking the input, you will have channeling er sumptin. The whole point is to soak the sugars out, so the malt has to be soaking in warm water.

Do you pump 'up' so high you can't see into the tun to maintain water adequite for saoking all of the grain?

Looking at your pic, you 'lifted' the sparge ring? You are keeping it above the grains, aren't you? to get a flow downward through the grains? Or did I misunderestimate you, and that is your drain 'manifold'?

I'm having a similar problem with beersmith.

My problem is that I can find no way for the program to determine boil volume based on your OG.

Whether I have a high grav or low grav recipe it still calculates the boil volume based on my equipment and boil time. But how can I know what my boil time is unless I know how much wort will be collected in advance?

Is there no way to estimate how much wort will be collected given a final runnings SG of 1.010? Shouldn't beersmith be able to estimate this, then adjust your boil time accordingly?

casebrew said:

I don't think you can choke only one side of the system. Sparge water is suposed to be 1/2 inch above the malt. If you are only choking the input, you will have channeling er sumptin. The whole point is to soak the sugars out, so the malt has to be soaking in warm water.

Do you pump 'up' so high you can't see into the tun to maintain water adequite for saoking all of the grain?

Looking at your pic, you 'lifted' the sparge ring? You are keeping it above the grains, aren't you? to get a flow downward through the grains? Or did I misunderestimate you, and that is your drain 'manifold'?

Click to expand...

No, that is my sparge ring. I usually keep a layer of water above the bed of grain, and the sparge ring sits around the top of the water layer (slightly above the grain bed, but no so high as to cause a frothing HSA mess).

Batch sparging is the only suggestion I have as well. If this doesn't work I don't know what else could help w/o actually being there

Kai

Thanks for all the help though.

I think I've at least narrowed down the problem.

I have had similar problems with efficiency due to my sparge. I spent $3 to get some insulated tubing for my sparge water to move through from the hot liquor tank to my sparge arm. This kept my water hotter (I was losing about 10-15 degrees from tank to tun). My efficiency went up 12% consistently!

Well, I think I have corrected my efficiency problem, thanks to all of your suggestions.

I changed my sparge habits, and really choked down my pump--I did a nice, slow sparge with my most recent batch (1 1/2 hours), and my efficiency ended up around 73%, with the grain bill being 50% wheat!! My former efficiencies were consistently in the 60's%.

So, thanks for the comments and suggestions!!

Biermann said:

Well, I think I have corrected my efficiency problem, thanks to all of your suggestions.

I changed my sparge habits, and really choked down my pump--I did a nice, slow sparge with my most recent batch (1 1/2 hours), and my efficiency ended up around 73%, with the grain bill being 50% wheat!! My former efficiencies were consistently in the 60's%.

So, thanks for the comments and suggestions!!

Click to expand...

I just now saw this thread--looks like you figured it out. With all that wheat that is a good efficiency.

I'll re-emphasize a few things too, based on my experience.

1. Crush is HUGE. Especially with wheat beers. A 122 deg. protein rest will also help your efficiency some when using wheat.

2. Sparging needs to go slow and you figured that out, but what concerns me is your 1.040 gravity when you finished your sparge. That needs to be much lower. Not only because you are leaving a lot of sugars behind, but IMHO it is better to have more wort available in case you do mess up your efficiency somehow. You can always boil harder if you have too much wort, or dilute if you have too much sugars.

3. Don't batch sparge with that fancy system unless you are trying to save time. Dial that sucker in and use it correctly. I think your beers will be better for it in the long run.

I think you are on the right track.

Loved reading this thread - it shed some light on some of my own problems, I think. I had piss poor efficiency with my first AG attempt (sub-50%!). I dialed in my grain mill, and I got a much nicer crush with the next batch. I wound up at 70% with that one (just under 50% wheat). I think my sparge technique could stand some improvement, and I'll take the advice here to heart.

I'm with Dude 100% on this, though:

Dude said:

Don't batch sparge with that fancy system unless you are trying to save time. Dial that sucker in and use it correctly. I think your beers will be better for it in the long run.

Click to expand...

I spent a lot of time and effort on a fly-sparge setup, so I'm gonna figure out how to make it work for me!

Dude said:

I just now saw this thread--looks like you figured it out. With all that wheat that is a good efficiency.

I'll re-emphasize a few things too, based on my experience.

1. Crush is HUGE. Especially with wheat beers. A 122 deg. protein rest will also help your efficiency some when using wheat.

2. Sparging needs to go slow and you figured that out, but what concerns me is your 1.040 gravity when you finished your sparge. That needs to be much lower. Not only because you are leaving a lot of sugars behind, but IMHO it is better to have more wort available in case you do mess up your efficiency somehow. You can always boil harder if you have too much wort, or dilute if you have too much sugars.

3. Don't batch sparge with that fancy system unless you are trying to save time. Dial that sucker in and use it correctly. I think your beers will be better for it in the long run.

I think you are on the right track.

Click to expand...

I didn't batch sparge--don't think I would--defeats the purpose of my system


My runnings were quite thin after filling my kettle--didn't take a reading, but it looked like water, and my kettle was full--