Aztec Imperial Stout

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Orangevango

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Im Working on a recipie for a highly alchoholic stout (12%?) using Cayenne and Chocolate like the chocolate drink aztecs drank + beer. The plan is to save this batch for december 21st 2012, which is the day that the aztecs and mayans suposedly predicted that the world will end. Anyway I would love some help from the more experianced recipe-smiths. I want the chocolate and cayenne to be very evident in the taste, but I do not want it to be burning spicy. I Based my current recipe on BrewPastor's Dark Night of the Soul RIS. One of my main concerns is that the cayenne will totaly fade after almost 4 years in the bottle.

6 Gallon Batch

30# two row pale
1.5# Chocolate
1.5# 150L Crystal
1.5# roasted rye
1# Special B Malt

6 oz columbus @ 60min



I would Mash It low and long (3 hours @ 150*?) as I do not want this thing to be too cloying.

When should I add the Chocolate and How much? I Was thinking cocoa powder. One of my concerns is that the amount of hops will be too much when the bitterness of the chocolate is put into consideration.

I was thinking 3/4 of a tablespoon of cayenne in the secondary.

Please Help me out.
 
What about cutting the cayenne with some paprika? It might add more flavor for you and keep the heat down.

I would be tempted to do a 1 gallon test with the pepper powders. Boil it for 60 or 90 min, what ever you plan to do, then taste it to make sure the heat is not over the top and check the "pepper" flavor.
 
I was considering using some ancho peppers as well for a smokey flavor.
 
This sounds like a great idea. Mexican hot chocolate has many similar properties that I really enjoy. If you want a smokey flavor that will cut the cayenne you use Spanish smoked paprika. It does have a fairly strong smokey flavor, but would go very well in a RIS, especially one with some spice like you are planning.
 
I have no experiance With roasted rye, what is the purpose of it in Brewpastor's original recipe. I mean, why didnt he just use roasted barley?
 
You could get some Cayenne peppers and roast them for a smokey flavor. The problem is I don't know how easy it is to find fresh cayenne pepper right now but I know they roast up really nice.

To get a little more flavor instead of hotness carefully seed the peppers and just use the flesh part in the secondary.

Another idea is to make a strong tincture using cayennes to try and capture the flavor. Anyone know if this might help preserve the flavor long term?

I'm just tossing idea about since I'm mentally working on a Jalapeno beer recipe that a friend has been hinting I make for her.
 
I second the use of Ancho powder (even if it's just in addition to the Cayenne). The smokey/earthy flavor os the Ancho pairs perfectly with the cocoa.

Also, the Mayans did not say it's going to be the end of the world or anything like that. All it is is that their final calander ENDS then (actually, it ends in 2013 if you want to be more specific b/c they didn't factor in O into the year, they only factored in the gregorian calander...sigh....). It's just an interesting fact that whenever one of the Mayan's calanders ends there has been upheval and distruction.
 
Look into Stones bitter chocolate oatmeal stout. There was an interview with Mitch Steele on a recent episode of the brewing network where he discussed what they used for chocolate.

I seem to recall it was actual unprocessed cacoa beans. They actually used them for the bittering characteristics and did not rely solely on hops.

As to the pepper I can't help much. Never played with them in beer though I love hot peppers. If you are going to bottle it maybe stuff a whole pepper into each bottle? :fro:
 
I totally second the pepper into the bottle. I think that the cayenne itself will fall out of the flavor over the years. Cheat that cayenne though, add some to the boil and then taste after primary and add more in secondary. If you toast the cayenne in a saute pan for a couple of minutes prior to adding it you will get that nice toasted robust flavor you are looking for. You might think about taking the peppers and tossing them into some boiling water for sanitation and to soften them into the bottles. Try a test with some Ancho as well as Chipotle if you want a little more heat.
 
As to the pepper I can't help much. Never played with them in beer though I love hot peppers. If you are going to bottle it maybe stuff a whole pepper into each bottle? :fro:
If you do that it'll make the beer pritty spicey. Capsaicin is alcohol saulable and will therefore extract into the beer making it hotter and hotter over time. Plus I've done that before and there is a definit increase of heat over time.
 
So the general opinion seems to be fresh peppers rather than powder, I guess Ill see about getting some, would I add them at flame out or in the boil or what? chop them up tiny or just slice em down the middle?
 
So the general opinion seems to be fresh peppers rather than powder, I guess Ill see about getting some, would I add them at flame out or in the boil or what? chop them up tiny or just slice em down the middle?
When I made my chili-beer, we boiled them in water for about 5 or 10 minutes, let them cool, and them pitched it into th efermentor with the wort. You could rack it off the pepeprs after about a week if you want, but we just kept them in there until bottling time. also, we did slice them down the center to allow the goodness to escape into the beer.
 
I've commented before on the use of peppers and I did a similarly themed beer not too long ago w/ peppers added in the last 15 minutes of the boil. Next time I use peppers, I would dry pepper the beer rather than use them in the boil. I found that the heat was different than what I wanted and started more in the back of your throat.

I used chocolate, cocoa, ground cloves, cinnamon and vanilla for spicing the brew. Between the pepper heat and any additional spices, be prepared for the beer to take a little while for the flavor to come together.
 
Im gonna wait 4 years, so taking a while to come together is not a problem.
 
I would up the chocolate to 2# and keep the rest of the grainbill the same. For RIS you want 10% of the grainbill to be roast malt, and since you said you wanted chocolate, I think you should go for more.

As for the hops I would do 4@60, 1@15, 1 to dry hop. This beer will be aged so long the hop character will fade out anyway, and the hops will help to preserve the beer for extended storage.
 
I would up the chocolate to 2# and keep the rest of the grainbill the same. For RIS you want 10% of the grainbill to be roast malt, and since you said you wanted chocolate, I think you should go for more.

As for the hops I would do 4@60, 1@15, 1 to dry hop. This beer will be aged so long the hop character will fade out anyway, and the hops will help to preserve the beer for extended storage.

While I haven't aged a bier for 2+ years... YET! I find the above advice to be as good as you'll ever get! :mug: I toast you and your advice Psycharomyces! (he he Couldn't resist making your username a little Psycho!)

As for the bier, I LOVE spicy food, it's a staple down here! I mean heck we're having ribs for Christmas (as we do every Thanksgiving or Christmas for 10 years now)! As for pepper flavored biers, I've only had Rouge's Chipotle Ale and find it too harsh for my pallet. The first bottle I tried had interesting underlying notes of spice and heat, with a distracting grainy/grassy flavor. The second was way too spicey to enjoy, just plain out hot and overpowered any other flavors. So I'd say go heavy on the ancho powder, maybe even add chili powder, perhaps hungarian paprika which is smokier! Hey you could even a couple oz. smoked malt for further complexity!

Schlante,
Phillip
 
kickin' this thread back up cause the more I have thought about it the more interested I am. I just had a dark chocolate and chili bar and it was good. A little too subtle on the chili but it reminded me of this thread.

I would not recommend chili powder because it is a blend of seasonings. Garlic, paprika, cayenne, onion powder, cumin and oregano.

I like the idea of smoky type peppers alot more than cayenne. I really do not find cayenne to be very flavorful personally. It is more about heat. Chipotles are great. They are smoked red jalapeños I believe. I am not as familiar with ancho peppers but I think they would be a good one to explore as well. More akin to the theme you are going for.

I think this one will require some playing around to find the right methods as there are a lot of variables here. Bitterness from the chocolate, or straight cacao nibs which I still promote. The flavor and heat of the peppers and how/when to add them...

Perhaps make a 5 gallon batch but divide it into 1 gallon fermenters and play with adding things differently.

You could also infuse the peppers in some grain neutral spirits like vodka to extract the essence and add that to the ferementer or straight to the keg (or bottling bucket). It would only be like a cup or less we are talking about.

I looked up xocoatl and cachuatl which were the traditional drink mixtures of the Mayans and Aztecs respectively for some ideas. They were mixes of cacao and chilies drank cold. According to some sources they suggest they incorporated vanilla beans as well. Sometimes honey and corn meal (flaked corn adjunct?) This could get really complicated but also be really amazing if blended just right so nothing was too in your face but still distinguishable.

Of course DFH has already jumped on it. I have not seen it but read about a beer they have made/are making called Theobroma based on the ancient drink mixtures. Though I do not think it is a stout.
 
kickin' this thread back up cause the more I have thought about it the more interested I am. I just had a dark chocolate and chili bar and it was good. A little too subtle on the chili but it reminded me of this thread.

Best chocolate bar.....EVER!

Chipotles are great. They are smoked red jalapeños I believe. I am not as familiar with ancho peppers but I think they would be a good one to explore as well. More akin to the theme you are going for.
All a chipotle means is a smoked pepper. It could be a Jalapeno, it could be a Cayenne, it could even be a Bhut Jolokia. Generally speaking, generic Chiptoles are smoked, ripe Jalapenos.

Ancho's are ABSOLUTELY fantastic especially if paired with cocoa.

You could also infuse the peppers in some grain neutral spirits like vodka to extract the essence and add that to the ferementer or straight to the keg (or bottling bucket). It would only be like a cup or less we are talking about.
Finlandia vodka is one of the best vodka's for pepper infussion.
 
Finlandia vodka is one of the best vodka's for pepper infussion.

I dunno, I am inclined to agree with Randy Mosher that the cheapest rutgut vodka you can find is the perfect media for infusion. It does not matter the quality of the alcohol as you are only interested in extracting the flavor components of the ingredients, this case hot peppers. I dare you to try and tell me you can taste the difference in the vodka in a hot pepper extract! You would have some SERIOUSLY sensitive tastebuds there!

Having done more investigation I agree about the ancho peppers, though admittedly I have only done reading and not first hand tasting. From what I have read they can have a chocolaty flavor heat to them.
 
I suppose only first hand experience will tell but I have found some more tips.

On the one hand according to Mitch Steele of Stone they added cacao nibs to the boil for chocolate and bitterness. According to a recipe on the Maltose Falcons website, the brewer their suggested that boiling cacao was detrimental to the head retention and such and suggested adding cacao nibs to the secondary for a cold infusion.

Maybe infusing them with the peppers would be a good route as well.
 
On the one hand according to Mitch Steele of Stone they added cacao nibs to the boil for chocolate and bitterness. According to a recipe on the Maltose Falcons website, the brewer their suggested that boiling cacao was detrimental to the head retention and such and suggested adding cacao nibs to the secondary for a cold infusion.

The thing to be worried about with head retention is the cacao butter and oils. the nibs are pretty low to negligible in the fats so boiling them probably wouldn't add much. Actually taking cacao and adding to the boil would be a substantial addition of fat. Not sure if the Maltose recipe made a distinction between boiling cacao and boiling cacao nibs but I'd still feel confident about head retention after adding nibs. They're pretty dry. Eat one. Kinda like bitter brown grape nuts.

I'm doing something similar and for the peppers I'm planning on roasting some anchos and pureeing them in vodka and letting them sit a while before straining. That's the plan, anyway. We'll see what happens... if it works out I'll give a shout out with the recipe.
 
I dunno, I am inclined to agree with Randy Mosher that the cheapest rutgut vodka you can find is the perfect media for infusion. It does not matter the quality of the alcohol as you are only interested in extracting the flavor components of the ingredients, this case hot peppers. I dare you to try and tell me you can taste the difference in the vodka in a hot pepper extract! You would have some SERIOUSLY sensitive tastebuds there!

Having done more investigation I agree about the ancho peppers, though admittedly I have only done reading and not first hand tasting. From what I have read they can have a chocolaty flavor heat to them.

I do have some seriously well tuned buds when it comes to pepper product. I'm a well known professional reviewer in the Firery Foods Industry ;)

Oh ya, and here's a link to one of my reviews that I did with said Infused vodka.

The reason Finandia was chosen is because it's not so much of a harsh vodka which allows the pepper to shine through much easier.

Ancho's are pritty mild when it comes to heat so I say just skip out on the infusion and use the whole pods (if using dry pods, rehydrate them in boiling water for 5-10 minutes). Yes they do have a nice chocolate like flavor to them. Ever have Dogfish Head Theobroma? Boom, Ancho peppers, no heat.
 
You could get some Cayenne peppers and roast them for a smokey flavor. The problem is I don't know how easy it is to find fresh cayenne pepper right now but I know they roast up really nice.

To get a little more flavor instead of hotness carefully seed the peppers and just use the flesh part in the secondary.

Another idea is to make a strong tincture using cayennes to try and capture the flavor. Anyone know if this might help preserve the flavor long term?

I'm just tossing idea about since I'm mentally working on a Jalapeno beer recipe that a friend has been hinting I make for her.

Sounds like it would add more flavor than just the powder, But i wonder about the oil from the peppers. I kinda remember reading something about staying away from putting oils in the beer ruining it, but i could be wrong. Anyone else hear of something like that?
 
Sounds like it would add more flavor than just the powder, But i wonder about the oil from the peppers. I kinda remember reading something about staying away from putting oils in the beer ruining it, but i could be wrong. Anyone else hear of something like that?

I can only speak to my own experience with using peppers, chocolate & cocoa in the kettle on my brew where it did take longer for the beer to actually develop a decent head...but none of these ingredients ruined the beer.

As far as tinctures go (and liquor used for flavor additions), I pref to stick with vodka that I would drink but I don't waste top shelf liquor.
 
I do have some seriously well tuned buds when it comes to pepper product. I'm a well known professional reviewer in the Firery Foods Industry ;)

I retract my challenge and bow to your superior buds. :eek:

Actually I bow to just about anyone else's taste buds considering how jacked mine are. I never know from day to day whether they are working properly or not. :( Damn medications!

The reason I suggested an infusion to begin with was a way to add the flavor and heat without throwing the peppers directly in and causing ptotential contamination. Though I suppose with a high gravity beer the alcohol would make that less likely.

Again, disclaimer here. I am merely speculating and supposin'

I have no practical experience in the use of peppers, cacao or the brewing of Imperial stouts. :D

I just like the idea.
 
It sounds awesome i would like to point out that aztecs didn't really believe the world was going to end.Simply it was just the dawning of a new age. Also 2012 by their calender which had no leap year. So your missing like 400 days so sometime in 2011 will be the end lol.
 
The recipie im considering now is as follows:

6 gallon batch.

30lbs 2 row
2.5 lbs chocolate malt
1.5 lbs 150l crystal
1 lb roasted rye
1 lb special b malt

4 oz columbus @ 60 min
1 oz columbus @ 15 min
1 oz columbus @ flameout

1.5 lb unsweetened cocoa powder @ flame out
1/2 tbsp powdered cayenne @ flame out
1/2 tbsp powdered ancho @ flame out

If the pepper or chocolate is not enough when I transfer to secondary, I will put more in, perhaps in the form of fresh peppers.

I will pitch a massive starter of wyyeast 1272 and let that ferment out as far as it will take me. If, Upon tasting it when fermentation completely halts, I find it too sweet, I will pitch a slurry of Lavalin EC-1118 to eat more of the simple sugars.
 
The thing to be worried about with head retention is the cacao butter and oils. the nibs are pretty low to negligible in the fats so boiling them probably wouldn't add much. Actually taking cacao and adding to the boil would be a substantial addition of fat.

Nibs are roasted, dehusked, lightly crushed beans. They still contain the full amount of cocoa butter that was originally in the bean (though you'll probably extract less than if you added chocolate liquor, which is nibs that have been finely ground to release the fat). To entirely avoid adding the fats you would have to use the the separated cocoa solids, which are sold as cocoa powder in your friendly neighbourhood grocer's.
 
Ok, so cocoa powder is the way to go? Im brewing this in the next week, so I need some opinions.
 
The cocoa powder had a tendency to settle out when I tried this. I added it in the last 5 minutes of the boil, so boiling it longer might be the way to go. I just ended up serving it like a hefeweizen, mixing and dumping the sediment into the glass. When served that way, it had a nice chocolate flavor. Otherwise, it was pretty subdued and I suspect it was mostly from the chocolate malt.

How many/what kind of peppers did you decide on?
 
I retract my challenge and bow to your superior buds. :eek:
:mug:
The reason I suggested an infusion to begin with was a way to add the flavor and heat without throwing the peppers directly in and causing ptotential contamination.
You really don't have to worry about contamination with the pepeprs b/c they are naturally anti-bacterial. One of the reasons why they were used so heavly in the past is because they caused the meals to spoil less rapidly.

If you are REAAAALLLLYYY concerned just boil them in water for 5 minutes and you'll be set to go.
 
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