Just did a reorder for the next run (we build 20 controllers per run) and our component costs went up on some items. Final tally not in yet, but I expect about a 5% increase on the controller.
Has anyone bought a controller from electricbiab.com
- Thread starter swem
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To echo swem's comment, I suspect that there is a market here for the DIYer who may not feel like building a control box...I'm handy but my brain starts to frost over when trying to figure out some aspects of controllers.
Since my ebuild is moving at the pace of geologic time, the pico controller is definitely in the running.
Since my ebuild is moving at the pace of geologic time, the pico controller is definitely in the running.
alien
Well-Known Member
But when it's finished, it will "rock"... :rockin:
drewmedic23
Well-Known Member
Subscribed!! I'm really interested in seeing how this comes out. I will probably purchase one as soon as I get a few extra $$. I would really like to see multiple hop additions and maybe an option for the compression adapter rather than the thermowell. Nice job on the product!
Just ordered mine this week because of this thread. I have been looking at various pre-built controllers and based on features and price, this is a really good deal. I've been doing the traditional all grain method, but it is a lot of cleanup and is time consuming. This process mimics how the Speidel Braumeister works, which would be the way I would totally go if I went commercial. 
All my fancy new toys showed up a few days ago! I am however, delaying their use as I am in the middle of finishing my basement, and I'm not going to half-ass it, the place where the brewery will be is also getting its own 30 amp gfci outlet, range hood, and sink. Should be brewing in a month or so. I will most certainly post a review.
kal
Well-Known Member
About $1400USD for the 30A kit if you were to buy all the parts yourself. I paid over $2000USD myself but because of the stupid shipping costs to get things to Canada and that was before people were charging an arm and a leg for some of the parts (before they got popular).
Kal
kal
Well-Known Member
Don't forget support as well. That wasn't listed. ... and defective parts, replacements, marketing, sales, advertising, etc. The list is of costs is massive.
It's not uncommon for a BOM (bill of materials) cost for a consumer electronic device to be only 20-30% of the end cost to the consumer.
It's always easy to others to look at the sum of parts and think something is overpriced when they consider only the materials that are used in the final product but that's never all that is involved. Not by a long shot.
Kal
cliffhanger1821
Well-Known Member
I never thought when I posted your link on the other thread that it would generate this kind of interest, but it sure is great! This is the only thing I'm missing to get my new eBIAB system up and running, can't wait to order one when I have enough money saved. This controller is the only one I've been eyeing for months now, it just really fills in all the holes with other controllers, like with being able to attach to your PC. Can you save individual brew sessions with this? And thanks to swem for buying one and starting this thread, hope you enjoy your new system!
Man I apologize, I'm a dick. What you're providing is great and the price isn't bad. I think you're tapping a starving market of home brewers who want better temp control but aren't into wiring 220v and programming. I'm a programmer by day and I've worked a lot with microcontrollers for brewing and other applications. I know what it takes to develop everything. I get it and I applaud the effort.
Just-a-sip
Well-Known Member
The only question I would have is there a way (or perhaps in your update) to put the controler in full manual mode for the boil. I saw there was an auto and manual as far as the process steps, and there is a way to adjust the boiling temp once reached... but. Is there a way to just add or remove power like a PID in manual mode. Curently I use a potentiometer system and as im about to build or purchase a better system, I would be very interested in this contoler If this feature was available. HECK YOU TELL ME ITS DOABLE AND I BUY TODAY.
Here is the relevant section from the manual (which is excellent BTW, bravo!):
"Heater Power
This prompt has multiple functions depicted by a varying length RED BAR when the heater is
enabled or by the word “OFF” when it is disabled. In general, when the heater is enabled, the length
of the bar indicates the power level of the heater output. Temperature is maintained with this system by
using a PID algorithm, that basically adjusts the amount of time the heater is on or off. The controller
can only provide full power (ON) or no power (OFF) to the heater element. By turning the heater on
for 1 second at 100% power and off for 1 second, we attain a 50% analog power equivalent using
digital controls. Any % power can be attained in this manner, and that is how this controller is able to
control temperature so accurately. A red bar that is the full length of the status window as shown in the
picture above represents 100% power. Shorter red bars indicate reduced power levels."
So based on how the controller works, the answer to your question would be no, because the controller can only turn on and turn off the heat stick at 100% power, so it can't work like a potentiometer which could control a heat stick from anywhere between 0% to 100% power. I am curious to see how it works during the boil process. How does it know when there is a rolling boil and to back off when it starts to boil over? My guess is the boil step is based on you using a recirculation technique with the wort, which in theory, should avoid boil over because you are constantly moving the wort, thus you can run the heat stick at full power. I don't plan to do that currently, so I may have to enter into manual mode at that point during the process and toggle the heat on an off as needed. But that's just my process.
He meant this to be a complete system, so if you only use parts of it, you will have to figure out some stuff to make it work for you.
Edit:
Having re-read these lines, it might work for you though:
"By turning the heater on
for 1 second at 100% power and off for 1 second, we attain a 50% analog power equivalent using
digital controls. Any % power can be attained in this manner, and that is how this controller is able to
control temperature so accurately. A red bar that is the full length of the status window as shown in the
picture above represents 100% power. Shorter red bars indicate reduced power levels."
Still not the same as a potentiometer, but as long as the heat stick responds to quick changes in power, it could work in a manual mode. I'd be worried about long term wear on the controller/SSR (assuming it has one) with a rapid on/off cycle of 30 AMPS.
"Heater Power
This prompt has multiple functions depicted by a varying length RED BAR when the heater is
enabled or by the word “OFF” when it is disabled. In general, when the heater is enabled, the length
of the bar indicates the power level of the heater output. Temperature is maintained with this system by
using a PID algorithm, that basically adjusts the amount of time the heater is on or off. The controller
can only provide full power (ON) or no power (OFF) to the heater element. By turning the heater on
for 1 second at 100% power and off for 1 second, we attain a 50% analog power equivalent using
digital controls. Any % power can be attained in this manner, and that is how this controller is able to
control temperature so accurately. A red bar that is the full length of the status window as shown in the
picture above represents 100% power. Shorter red bars indicate reduced power levels."
So based on how the controller works, the answer to your question would be no, because the controller can only turn on and turn off the heat stick at 100% power, so it can't work like a potentiometer which could control a heat stick from anywhere between 0% to 100% power. I am curious to see how it works during the boil process. How does it know when there is a rolling boil and to back off when it starts to boil over? My guess is the boil step is based on you using a recirculation technique with the wort, which in theory, should avoid boil over because you are constantly moving the wort, thus you can run the heat stick at full power. I don't plan to do that currently, so I may have to enter into manual mode at that point during the process and toggle the heat on an off as needed. But that's just my process.
He meant this to be a complete system, so if you only use parts of it, you will have to figure out some stuff to make it work for you.
Edit:
Having re-read these lines, it might work for you though:
"By turning the heater on
for 1 second at 100% power and off for 1 second, we attain a 50% analog power equivalent using
digital controls. Any % power can be attained in this manner, and that is how this controller is able to
control temperature so accurately. A red bar that is the full length of the status window as shown in the
picture above represents 100% power. Shorter red bars indicate reduced power levels."
Still not the same as a potentiometer, but as long as the heat stick responds to quick changes in power, it could work in a manual mode. I'd be worried about long term wear on the controller/SSR (assuming it has one) with a rapid on/off cycle of 30 AMPS.
jeffmeh
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Here is the relevant section from the manual (which is excellent BTW, bravo!):
"Heater Power
This prompt has multiple functions depicted by a varying length RED BAR when the heater is
enabled or by the word OFF when it is disabled. In general, when the heater is enabled, the length
of the bar indicates the power level of the heater output. Temperature is maintained with this system by
using a PID algorithm, that basically adjusts the amount of time the heater is on or off. The controller
can only provide full power (ON) or no power (OFF) to the heater element. By turning the heater on
for 1 second at 100% power and off for 1 second, we attain a 50% analog power equivalent using
digital controls. Any % power can be attained in this manner, and that is how this controller is able to
control temperature so accurately. A red bar that is the full length of the status window as shown in the
picture above represents 100% power. Shorter red bars indicate reduced power levels."
So based on how the controller works, the answer to your question would be no, because the controller can only turn on and turn off the heat stick at 100% power, so it can't work like a potentiometer which could control a heat stick from anywhere between 0% to 100% power. I am curious to see how it works during the boil process. How does it know when there is a rolling boil and to back off when it starts to boil over? My guess is the boil step is based on you using a recirculation technique with the wort, which in theory, should avoid boil over because you are constantly moving the wort, thus you can run the heat stick at full power. I don't plan to do that currently, so I may have to enter into manual mode at that point during the process and toggle the heat on an off as needed. But that's just my process.
He meant this to be a complete system, so if you only use parts of it, you will have to figure out some stuff to make it work for you.
Edit:
Having re-read these lines, it might work for you though:
"By turning the heater on
for 1 second at 100% power and off for 1 second, we attain a 50% analog power equivalent using
digital controls. Any % power can be attained in this manner, and that is how this controller is able to
control temperature so accurately. A red bar that is the full length of the status window as shown in the
picture above represents 100% power. Shorter red bars indicate reduced power levels."
Still not the same as a potentiometer, but as long as the heat stick responds to quick changes in power, it could work in a manual mode. I'd be worried about long term wear on the controller/SSR (assuming it has one) with a rapid on/off cycle of 30 AMPS.
The cycling should not be a problem for the SSR, as that is what they are designed to do. Every PID/SSR system works this way. An SSVR that can regulate voltage is a different animal.
The question for the designer is whether or not he has programmed the control to include a feature where the user can manually set a percentage for the controller to maintain. From the section of the manual you quoted, we know that he has programmed the controller to simulate a PID in automatic mode, but not whether he has included a manual mode.
KPSquared
Well-Known Member
Everything described above is just Pulse Width Modulation, no?
I thought that's how you HAD to control a heating element. The only way to get 50% power is to cycle it on and off at a specific rate. You can't just dial the power back with a potentiometer. I was under the impression an element like that was all or nothing.
Hence the reason why so many people have built stand alone PWM controllers to slow the boil on their electric setups.
I thought that's how you HAD to control a heating element. The only way to get 50% power is to cycle it on and off at a specific rate. You can't just dial the power back with a potentiometer. I was under the impression an element like that was all or nothing.
Hence the reason why so many people have built stand alone PWM controllers to slow the boil on their electric setups.
I plead ignorance. Doing more research on the SSRs I now realize they are electronic versus mechanical devices. So yes wear is not a factor for them. As far as heating element control, I am not sure now. There are so many conflicting articles out there (part of the reason why I bought this system) that I don't know. It may very well be PWM. But I honestly don't know the functional differences between SimmerSwitches, how the infinite power dial in High Gravity's EBC II, or other controllers work.
At any rate, I'll let you all know this weekend when I try it out!
The element is quite happy running at half-power - it's just a resistor. The problem is it is difficult and costly to drive them that way. A potentiometer could do it but you't need one that could handle a LOT of power and it would be very very large. An autotransformer like a variac is the best way, but they can be expensive too. PWM is the only way that makes sense.
Just-a-sip
Well-Known Member
your i read the manual and that was what i got as well.
and i understand that this system was supposed to a turn key out of the box set up and that if my applications require a different approach then i shouldn't not go this rout
i guess i was just hoping that with this being so young in the development stage and the manufacturer obviously taking into consideration ideas for the next upgrade that perhaps if there were enough people wanting a manual control he could look into this as well..
i know almost everyone doing electric uses a pid controller and with that they more times then not go into manual control for the boil as others use a potentiometer control.
and i understand that this system was supposed to a turn key out of the box set up and that if my applications require a different approach then i shouldn't not go this rout
i guess i was just hoping that with this being so young in the development stage and the manufacturer obviously taking into consideration ideas for the next upgrade that perhaps if there were enough people wanting a manual control he could look into this as well..
i know almost everyone doing electric uses a pid controller and with that they more times then not go into manual control for the boil as others use a potentiometer control.
drewmedic23
Well-Known Member
Look at the part of the manual that explains how he made his own algorithm....if the boil temp is programmed at 212, then wouldn't the controller automatically put the element on low power as it approaches 212? And since it will never actually reach 212, it should modulate the boil pretty well....right? I'd quote the part but I'm on my phone
jeffmeh
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In general, setting a PID algorithm to maintain 212F at sea level will oscillate between no boil and vigorous boil. People use PWMs or PIDs with manual mode to set a percentage to maintain the level of "vigor" as desired.
This is certainly how I achieve a boil. I set my BCS to full power until I reach 210, then I dial back to a 60% duty cycle (~2/3 on; 1/3 off per second). This will hold the temps at 212 without boil-over. A previous post described setting the PWM to 1sec on/off, which would do the same thing. Sounds like a nice little system.
Yes, in manual or auto mode you can adjust the set point temperature on the fly by simply pressing the up or down button on the controller at any time. Gives you analog type control but uses digital technique. The solid state relay switches power on the zero crossing point of the AC cycle so there is no issue with durability of the heater.
drewmedic23
Well-Known Member
So just to clarify, can you manually set the element to a say 50% power setting or a timer setting (on one sec, off the next sec)?
Many have requested multiple hops addition alarms instead of the two that the default configuration allows. I just want to make sure that the program changes I make meet the expectations of those that asked for it.
Right now, there is an alarm that notifies the brewer to add hops at the point when boil is reached. I would retain that alarm. Is the assumption that everyone always adds some hops at the start of boil?
I would then add the option for 5 more times (in minutes) from the start of boil for subsequent hops additions.
Thus, you would set "Boil Time" to 1 hour for example, which would represent the entire boil time.
You could then specify up to 5 hops addition times for example:
H1 =10
H2 = 20
H3 = 40
H4 = 45
H5 = 50
So 10 minutes after the start of the boil, an alarm would tell you to add hops (H1)
then, 10 minutes after that, or 20 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H2),
then , 20 minutes after that, or 40 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H3),
then, 15 minutes after that, or 45 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H4),
and finally, 5 minutes after that, or 50 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H5).
Is 5 additions after the initial enough?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Cheers!
Right now, there is an alarm that notifies the brewer to add hops at the point when boil is reached. I would retain that alarm. Is the assumption that everyone always adds some hops at the start of boil?
I would then add the option for 5 more times (in minutes) from the start of boil for subsequent hops additions.
Thus, you would set "Boil Time" to 1 hour for example, which would represent the entire boil time.
You could then specify up to 5 hops addition times for example:
H1 =10
H2 = 20
H3 = 40
H4 = 45
H5 = 50
So 10 minutes after the start of the boil, an alarm would tell you to add hops (H1)
then, 10 minutes after that, or 20 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H2),
then , 20 minutes after that, or 40 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H3),
then, 15 minutes after that, or 45 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H4),
and finally, 5 minutes after that, or 50 minutes after boil started, you would be reminded to add hops again (H5).
Is 5 additions after the initial enough?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Cheers!
The operation manual gives real good detail how the PID is implemented. The variables that determine the percent on and off are completely configurable. What I was getting at in my last post, is that if you had set the boil temperature to 210, and say that you wanted to change it during the brew process, you simply press the up or down button to change the target temp. So hitting the up button 2 times would immediately change the setpoint to 212. This can be done in automatic or manual mode. The only difference between manual and automatic mode is that the controller automatically advances to the next brew step in automatic mode. You can change the timer as well via the brew control menu in the middle of a timed operation.
The PID uses a 3 second integrated window. I've found that is the optimum for this heater element. Smaller windows simply did not allow the thermal mass of the heater element to regulate well enough.
Hope this helps.
drewmedic23
Well-Known Member
I've never done more than 5 hop additions...unless it's some crazy ipa with a continuous addition, 5 should be fine. Nice improvement.
kal
Well-Known Member
Nope! There are many beers that are all late boil hopped as it gives a much smoother bitterness. I do this in my Electric Pale Ale. Boiled for 60 mins but hops aren't added until the last 20 on down. More details on late hopping here on Jamil's site.
Then there are other beers that are boiled for 90 but hops are added from 60 on down.
Then there are beers I've made (like this one) where all the of bitterness comes from hop stands where 100% of the hops are added AFTER the boil is completely over. The hops are only steeped, sometimes for hours, at varying temperatures.
There are basically no rules: You can add hops in the mash, first wort hops (before the boil while collecting in the boil kettle), during the boil, after the boil is done, and various stages of fermentation, after fermentation, and while serving.
So it really depends. If you want to provide full flexibility you need to allow for hops at any time. IMHO, you can't limit the brewer, though there's no reason why he has to follow a schedule imposed by the box either.
Some of the beers I've made have 6-7 hops additions.
There are also continually hopped beers (a la Dogfish Head) where you add hops continually throughout the boil. These would basically have an infinite number of hop additions.
All of the above is one reason why I never tried to do any sort of programming or alarming based on additions ... there are too many options available!
Kal
While all of that is true, if you step back and look at this as not a system that will brew beer for you, rather it is assisted brewing - the controller helps you to brew but doesn't do it for you. For the hop additions it is just reminding you when to through your next lot of hops in.
All of what you talk about could easily be covered by having a set number of hop additions that are configurable (and you did mention that).
I would say 10 would be plenty - just make sure that you can change the boil length and the hop timing.
100% hop stand beer - the brewer knows to add the hops after the boil is complete.
DFH stytle cont. hopped beer - again the brewer knows to continously add a little bit of hops throughout the boil.
kal
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%. Something that allows you to choose from FWH, to any time during the boil to "+" times after the boil is really all that is needed. What I didn't like is the idea that everyone always adds hops at the beginning of the boil as that's not true at all. Simply allow users to configure a string of number or even letters (like FWH) to denote when their hops get added, up to 10 or so and they'd be set.
Kal
Damn forgot about FWHing!
Dealing with the 110 differnt ways 100 brewers brew is the biggest hurdle for a controller. With the likes of yours most of that is done by the simplesity - I can set this PID and that timer and know what to do - and then before/after the boil I do this/that. When the brewer has to ignore an instruction because they know it doesn't apply to them that is when it becomes a hassle.
As I have said before my aim is to build a controller similar to electricbiab.com's and am constantly coming up with ideas of what would be a cool feature - but most of the time it ends up that it would be a nuisence for +50% of my brewing that doesn't need that feature.
So for now at least I am looking to build a controller that basically will emulate yours Kal on a single LCD screen... wish me luck as I am stumbling at the first hurdle of user inputs for set_values (OK I might be over it... maybe
)To get back on topic I would suggest that you have 10 hop additions
FWH - do not enter any time (controller defaults this as add hops to the BK when lautering)
XXX-000 - boil additions (will alarm at T = boil time - hopping time)
-XXX - Whirlpool additions (will alarm at T = boil time - hopping addition //double negative adds additional time)
Don't know if it was clear in the above but I suggest you keep with the standard homebrewing terms that 60 min hops are boiled for 60 mins not added after 60 minutes.
I agree. If it is set up to always add hops when you reach boil, who is to say that you didn't just add some "Air" hops at initial boil and go on about your plan for later additions.
huntb
Well-Known Member
The oh so delicious air hops. Perfect for bittering, flavoring and aroma! Although, I tend to mix them with several ounces of other varieties to really bring out their uniqueness
I hear that is the goto variety for BMC... had to be done
But more importantly I wasn't really advocating to leave the initial boil hops as is but make all the hop additions variable timed from the end of the boil - that way you don't need to remember to forget a specific step
Yes, I would say 10 hop additions just to be on the generous/safe side. Also yes countdown from 90/60 minutes to coincide with popular brew software like BeerSmith. 60 = start of boil, 15 = 15 minutes from end of boil, 0 minutes = end of boil. Looking forward to testing out the unit this weekend. Last weekend got squashed because UPS sucks and sent the package through Chelmsford, MA rather than direct to Warwick, RI. Added an extra day to the ship time, otherwise I would of had it last Friday.
@flyingpole
What is the best way to extend the length of or substitute the temperature probe? The included cord is way too short for my setup, you have to practically be on top of the brew pot with the controller with the included length of cord.
What is the best way to extend the length of or substitute the temperature probe? The included cord is way too short for my setup, you have to practically be on top of the brew pot with the controller with the included length of cord.
drewmedic23
Well-Known Member
I pulled the trigger today on the 15gal kit. Pretty excited to get out started up
Just-a-sip
Well-Known Member
make sure you report back
I will be doing a Scotch Ale Saturday morning with the controller. I was delayed because I needed to get a thermowell, GFCI inline protection, some other electrical goodies, and some other BIAB stuff to set my system up safely. All leak tested and ready to go now. I did a test boil with the separate 5500 watt element and I got 10 gallons of water to a boil in 20 minutes. Pretty psyched to give the system a real go. Already saving a lot of space with the one pot setup, in the 10 x 10 room in my basement that I have been limited to. The below image was from a temporary setup I did just to test the system out. I have added a stainless steel prep table, the thermowell for the temperature probe, and an installed outlet for the 220v 30a service with an inline GFCI protection device. The second image is a wider shot of the (yet to be fully finished) room.
drewmedic23
Well-Known Member
So the whole system came yesterday and I finally got a chance to start playing with everything.
It all looks well put together and it looks like the design is pretty well thought out.
Things I see could end up being a problem are the thermo probe is pretty short and may not respond to temp changes quickly.....however, I don't know that I would have done it differently given how everything is setup. I would have liked to see a longer probe cord. Its only about 3 feet long. However, he did provide plenty of 240v 10/2 service wire.
For the controller:
The touch screen is a nice interface and works pretty well...you don't have to press hard at all to get a response. Its pretty simple. Also, the usb wire to go from controller to computer is too short but I had an extra one sitting around and I'm good now. The included cord was about two feet long...personally, Id like my laptop a little farther away from 10 gallons of boiling wort
The program is very easy to use once you play around with it for a few mins...you can change all of the values by clicking on the current ones and then either run the program from your laptop or shoot the parameters to the controller.
So far so good! Once I get this thing pumping out some brew, Ill post again
It all looks well put together and it looks like the design is pretty well thought out.
Things I see could end up being a problem are the thermo probe is pretty short and may not respond to temp changes quickly.....however, I don't know that I would have done it differently given how everything is setup. I would have liked to see a longer probe cord. Its only about 3 feet long. However, he did provide plenty of 240v 10/2 service wire.
For the controller:
The touch screen is a nice interface and works pretty well...you don't have to press hard at all to get a response. Its pretty simple. Also, the usb wire to go from controller to computer is too short but I had an extra one sitting around and I'm good now. The included cord was about two feet long...personally, Id like my laptop a little farther away from 10 gallons of boiling wort
The program is very easy to use once you play around with it for a few mins...you can change all of the values by clicking on the current ones and then either run the program from your laptop or shoot the parameters to the controller.
So far so good! Once I get this thing pumping out some brew, Ill post again
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