Wyeast 1968 in Porter.

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eon

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I'm going to be using Wyeast 1968 in a porter soon. I have read about all sorts of problems but looking for some more specific advice. Has anyone ever used 1968 in a porter before?

Despite certain issues this yeast can cause, I hear it's pretty AWESOME! :)

Here is my recipe:

OG 1.065
FG 1.020

COLOR 55* SRM

Mash Efficiency 75%

30.4 IBUs

6.0% ABV
----------------------------------------

6.6 lbs. Light DME

1.25 lbs. British Brown 70L
1.25 lbs. Chocolate malt
0.25 lbs. Black Patent
0.25 lbs. Crystal 120L
0.25 lbs. Caramel malt 80L
0.25 lbs. Caramel malt 40L
0.25 lbs. Victory
0.25 lbs. Special B
0.25 lbs. Biscuit Malt

1.50 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 60 minutes
1.50 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 15 minutes
2 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 5 minutes
1 oz. Willamette @ 1 minute

Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale

Steep Grains @ 156F for 45 minutes.

Can anyone offer some advice so I can calmly handle any problems that might occur with this yeast? Any tips? Should I make a yeast starter?

Also, I read to shake the fermenter every other day. I also read to not disturb the fermenter at all. So Confused! :confused:

I've heard horror stories about this yeast stopping too soon. According to Beer Calculus my FG is 1.020. Will I have a problem hitting this FG?

I greatly appreciate any info. Thanks!
 
I have used this yeast in brown ales and ESBs with great success in the past. It will attenuate well with a little coaxing, and its flocculation is amazing. You will want to keep an eye on the fermentation temperature. You can start in the mid 60s and ramp to 70F after the first 48-72 hours. After a couple days, the yeast will have finished reproducing and ester formation will be largely complete. By ramping the temperature at this point, you can get a little bit more activity from the yeast toward the end of fermentation, and not have to worry about the excessive ester and fusel alcohol production that comes with high initial fermentation temperatures.

Since this is an extract recipe, the extract manufacturer has determined the fermentability of the wort for you. If you have trouble reaching the final gravity you are targeting when you brew bigger beers like this one, you can always replace a small portion of your extract (~5-10%) with simple sugars (corn sugar, cane sugar, etc.) in order to dry the beer out some.

You will definitely want to make a yeast starter for a beer of this gravity. I like to use the pitching rate calculator at mrmalty.com to determine the size of the starter I need to achieve the proper pitching rate for each brew. If you pitch plenty of healthy yeast into well-aerated wort and ferment at an appropriate temperature, you will be able to fully attenuate your beer
 
After reviewing your recipe, you might want to consider adding a pound of 2-row to your grain bill. The addition of the 2-row will provide the enzymes needed to convert the starches present in these malts into fermentable sugars. At this point you will be conducting a mini-mash rather than just steeping grains.
 
After reviewing your recipe, you might want to consider adding a pound of 2-row to your grain bill.

I second this. The other base malts in your recipe will self convert, but they're not going to give you much more. Add a pound of any light base malt (2, 6 row, doesn't really matter at this quantity) and reduce the DME to an even 6lbs or so.

Another thing to consider is the overall complexity of the grainbill. You've got 4 base malts, including the DME, 4 crystals, and 2 heavily roasted malts. That's quite a lot. Some people think this adds complexity, others feel this tends to muddy a recipe, preventing it to form a comprehensible flavor profile. Maybe I'm telling you things you already know, and if so I'm sorry, but you might want to consider this. Maybe you want it super complex, for all I know. I'm sure some pretty delicious beers have been made with amazingly complex grainbills. Me, I tend to get nervous any time I add more than 4 different malts total in a recipe. I've really got to justify it for that to happen, especially when I know the yeast is going to bring a lot of flavor to the party (as 1968 will).
 
+1 on mashing needed.

eon, there's a chart on the Homebrewtalk wiki that says if a malt needs mashing;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malts_Chart
The ones that need mashing from your grain bill are bolded:
1.25 lbs. British Brown 70L
1.25 lbs. Chocolate malt
0.25 lbs. Black Patent
0.25 lbs. Crystal 120L
0.25 lbs. Caramel malt 80L
0.25 lbs. Caramel malt 40L
0.25 lbs. Victory
0.25 lbs. Special B
0.25 lbs. Biscuit Malt

AFAIK, none of the malts that need mashing have any enzyme power (actually, none of the other ones do either), which is why ISUbrew79 pointed out the need for a base malt that has a good amount of diastatic power.

PS: You can leave out those malts and make a porter. Also, the ESB yeast should make a nice porter.
 
^^^ Odd. Victory is the only malt of those three on the chart that's 40L or above (i.e., will self convert). I wonder how much products change over time, or by different maltsters. I'm pretty certain some knowledgeable brewers have stated that these malts should self convert, at least, but I may have to revisit some of this old literature.
 
Ok, now I'm nervous! haha! I just ordered all the ingredients for this recipe today.

1.) I will follow your advice on adding 1 lbs. of 2-row.

2.) Do I need to also mash the British Brown, Victory, & Biscuit Malt?

3.) How do I do a mini mash? Please don't tell me I need any extra equipment!

4.) I know it is hard to tell and especially hard because taste is subjective, but If I brew my recipe as is, how do you think it will turn out?

5.) If my recipe above is a disaster, what changes can I make to make this a successful porter.

In defense of my "complex" grain bill, I would like to mention that my favorite porter is Olfabrikken porter. It can be found here:

http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/olfabrikken-porter/52649/

Here is a description of the beer:

A dark and rich porter inspired by the Baltic porters traditionally made in Scandinavia. Roasted without being burned or bitter, with the flavor dominated by dried fruits and vinous notes. High amounts of residual sugars and a fruity aroma makes this beer the perfect companion for chocolate desserts, if served lightly chilled. Brewed on Maris Otter ale malt, Brown Malt, chocolate malt, roasted barley, two types of caramel malt and brown sugar.

As you can see, in my recipe I have the British Brown, Chocolate malt, two types of caramel malt, and I replaced Roasted barley with Black Patent. The only thing I am not using is the brown sugar.

I am not trying to clone olfabrikken but it would be nice to lean in that direction.

I need all the help I can get. I just spent $66 on all these ingredients! My fault, I know but I would greatly appreciate any information to help me through this mess.
 
Mash all of your grains together. A mash is just a steep with controlled water:grain ratio and temperature, at its most basic. I'd start with about 1.25-1.5qt water per pound of grain, and just do your best to hold 156F for 45-60 minutes. That will ensure full conversion (you'll most likely be done in 30 min or less, but the easy way to make sure you're done is to let it go longer). Then just remove your grains, heat to a boil, and proceed as usual.
 
Ok, let me get this straight. 1.5 quarts x 4 pounds of grain= 1.5 gallons of water. I have to do the mini-mash in 1.5 gallons of water right? I cannot do this in 3 gallons of water...That would be steeping. Is that correct?

So after I do my mini-mash, I remove the grains. Do I then add a couple more gallons of water to my brew pot and then bring it up to a boil? Normally, when I brew beer, I start with 3 gallons of water in the pot, I steep grains if I have them, then bring it up to a boil.

It seems like my grain bag is big enough to hold 4 lbs. of grain. If not, is it ok to have two grain bags in the pot? Seems like a silly question. Just making sure.

Guldberg, you seem to think my grain bill is too complex. May I ask what you would do in my position? I am actually pretty content with my grains as is but I don't want an awful, undrinkable porter on my hands. Not for $66! :)

Maybe I can keep the grain bill as is but lower the amounts? Then I would have to lower the amount of hops too...

Boy, This recipe has turned into a mess!
 
+1 to what everyone is saying about complexity. The more I brew (I'm close to 30 batches in), the more I find I prefer the beers with simpler grain bills. That way you can taste everything and work towards the right balance. With too many specialty grains, if you don't like it, it's nearly impossible to pinpoint the problem.

It's not that simple beers can't taste complex - they can. Often more complex, especially when the balance is right, than "complex" beers. And far more commercial beers - even the great ones - have simple recipes than do complex ones.

At first glance, I'd take your recipe and turn it into something like this:

6.6 lbs. Light DME

1 lbs. British Brown 70L
0.75 lbs. Chocolate malt
0.25 lbs. Black Patent
0.75 lbs. Crystal 80L

1.50 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 60 minutes
1 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 5 minutes
0.5 oz. Willamette @ 1 minute


Oh, and 1968 should work great, I think.

Let us know how it turns out!
 
Thanks palefire! I just might go with your recipe. Have you ever had Olfabrikken Porter? I am trying to get a porter that is close to that. Here is a description of it:

A dark and rich porter inspired by the Baltic porters traditionally made in Scandinavia. Roasted without being burned or bitter, with the flavor dominated by dried fruits and vinous notes. High amounts of residual sugars and a fruity aroma makes this beer the perfect companion for chocolate desserts, if served lightly chilled. Brewed on Maris Otter ale malt, British Brown Malt, chocolate malt, roasted barley, two types of caramel malt and brown sugar. 7.5% ABV
 
1968 rocks! Go for it. I does floc very good so it is advisable to roust your fermenter after 2-3 days. I think this would do very well in a porter.
 
Thanks palefire! I just might go with your recipe. Have you ever had Olfabrikken Porter? I am trying to get a porter that is close to that. Here is a description of it:

No, I haven't, though my recipe will probably give you something closer to a brown porter than the extra-robust style you're looking for!

If you want a good robust porter that will get you closer, Ed Wort's is a great one. Give it some age and the vinous notes'll start showing up. You could sub most of the 2-row for extract and use the hop schedule from your recipe (or mine - I still think yours would be too hoppy). Pitch 1968 and you've got a great beer:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f126/bee-cave-brewery-robust-porter-56768/

Oh, and if you're looking for a great Partial Mash technique, you really can't do better than Deathbrewers: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

Good luck!
 
Guldberg, you seem to think my grain bill is too complex. May I ask what you would do in my position? I am actually pretty content with my grains as is but I don't want an awful, undrinkable porter on my hands. Not for $66! :)

Do you have all your ingredients purchased? If so, I'd just go ahead as you originally planned. I wanted above to provide food for thought rather than critique your recipe. As I said, some people like using complex grainbills. After all, we're in this to make beer we like to drink, yes? Who am I to say you won't like that.

What might be interesting is to brew the original recipe, and then try a modified one to see which you like better. Based on the description above, I'd try something like this:

2:3 to 1:1 ratio of MO (or any British pale) to Brown malt, adjusted to target gravity (I'd say 1070 to 1080)
12oz-1lb chocolate malt
4oz roasted barley or patent
1lb crystal (either all 80 or maybe split between 40 and 120)

Mash at 156 again, hop as you like, pitch cool and ferment a bit on the warm side (70 or so), but don't rouse unless you underattenutate by a bunch. That way you still get some esters through but you'll leave a little sugar unconverted for a slightly sweeter, fuller body. Expect it to finish around 1018-1020.

Edit: now that I look at the other replies, it seems Palefire's recipe is pretty close to mine. We must be on to something good! The MO can be replaced with extract, to be sure, but the full amount of the brown cannot. You might try upping the brown a little (from 1lb), if you don't mind using couple extra bags. Or you could just go with 2lbs brown and 1lb pale in the minimash and up the chocolate a little. It won't be the same, but might get you close.
 
^^^ Odd. Victory is the only malt of those three on the chart that's 40L or above (i.e., will self convert). I wonder how much products change over time, or by different maltsters. I'm pretty certain some knowledgeable brewers have stated that these malts should self convert, at least, but I may have to revisit some of this old literature.

GuldTuborg, I'm going off of Briess' website, they've got "Victory® Malt" listed as "A specialty malt with no enzymes and a color of 28° Lovibond, it delivers toasty, biscuity, baking bread and nutty flavors to beer. It's exceptional in Nut Brown Ales and other dark beer styles. "

(I think only Briess can make per se "Victory", they have it listed as a registered trademark, which I dutifully acknowledged above :))

After all, we're in this to make beer we like to drink, yes?
+1 on that!
 
I think the big thing with this yeast is to temperature control the ferment and pitch enough yeast.
 
Just do the mini-mash with your ingredients as noted by GuldTuborg back in post #8. Include the 1-2 lbs. of 2-row. You'll be fine, and you'll make beer!

RDWHAHB.
Dave
 
Thanks for the info SkiSolo! I'm not sure if 6 lbs. of grains will fit into my grain bag. I mean I think it should fit. Is it ok if I use 2 grain bags for my mini mash? I could have 3lbs. in one bag and 3lbs. in the other? The grain bag I have now is 9 1/2 inches wide and 23 inches long. Think that'll work or should I go with something like this:

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/nylon-extra-large-straining-bag-2-x-3-coarse-mesh.html

Thanks again!
 
Thanks GuldTuborg. I think I'm going to brew my original recipe. I have put so much time and worry into it, I can't pass this one up. It may turn out amazing! I'm gonna take your advice actually and brew two versions. I'll definitely let you guys know how these turn out.

One last question: should I add 1 pound or 2 pounds of 2-row? Does it make a difference?

Thanks!
 
One last question: should I add 1 pound or 2 pounds of 2-row? Does it make a difference?

It depends upon what your anticipated efficiency was in the recipe making process. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go with 2lbs.:p

I hope it turns out well. Keep us posted.
 
Well, on brew day I agreed NOT to brew my original recipe. Perhaps it was too complex as other have said. Here is what I brewed:

6.6 lbs. Light DME

2.00 lbs. 2-row malt
1.25 lbs. British Brown 70L
1.25 lbs. Chocolate malt
0.25 lbs. Black Patent
0.25 lbs. Caramel malt 80L
0.25 lbs. Victory
0.25 lbs. Special B

8 oz. Brown Sugar @ 15 minutes

1.50 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 60 minutes
1.50 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 15 minutes
2 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 5 minutes
1 oz. Willamette @ 1 minute

Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale

Mash @ 156F for 1 hour.

I couldn't really keep a stable mash temp. I was floating between 154-160. Hope all goes well.

I tasted the wort right before I pitched the yeast. MAN, it was Super SWEET!! it was delicious.

I'll keep everyone posted when I finally bottle and crack one open.
 
Keep us posted. I did not catch this thread early enough... If I did, I would have suggested a lower mash temp - however, do not worry, it will be beer no matter what and for the record it is pretty difficult to end with a disaster IMO.

I would love to try your beer.
 
Thanks jj17! The wort tasted delicious! If that is any indication of how the final product will taste then I'm a happy man. :D
 
That's a lot of choc malt ! Hope you like it (having munched on some, I can't say it tastes like chocolate...) but this recipe seems a lot more balanced than the other one. The fact that you bought all these ingredients is a blessing though. Taste them !

Also, give yourself a direction when writing a recipe. Ask yourself what you want to end up with and compare with commercial examples. Some malts need to be used in small amounts as to not be overwhelming (Specila B is one of them) while others can be used in more liberal amounts.
 
Ok, sorry I am just getting to this now. I forgot about it and then I got super busy with school.

The porter turned out really good! I might tweak it a little. I know for one thing, I carbonated it too much.

I'm about to go to work but I'll have to get around to really tasting it and giving it a review.
 
I'm going to be using Wyeast 1968 in a porter soon. I have read about all sorts of problems but looking for some more specific advice. Has anyone ever used 1968 in a porter before?

Despite certain issues this yeast can cause, I hear it's pretty AWESOME! :)

Here is my recipe:

OG 1.065
FG 1.020

COLOR 55* SRM

Mash Efficiency 75%

30.4 IBUs

6.0% ABV
----------------------------------------

6.6 lbs. Light DME

1.25 lbs. British Brown 70L
1.25 lbs. Chocolate malt
0.25 lbs. Black Patent
0.25 lbs. Crystal 120L
0.25 lbs. Caramel malt 80L
0.25 lbs. Caramel malt 40L
0.25 lbs. Victory
0.25 lbs. Special B
0.25 lbs. Biscuit Malt

1.50 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 60 minutes
1.50 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 15 minutes
2 oz. East Kent Goldings @ 5 minutes
1 oz. Willamette @ 1 minute

Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale

Steep Grains @ 156F for 45 minutes.

Can anyone offer some advice so I can calmly handle any problems that might occur with this yeast? Any tips? Should I make a yeast starter?

Also, I read to shake the fermenter every other day. I also read to not disturb the fermenter at all. So Confused! :confused:

I've heard horror stories about this yeast stopping too soon. According to Beer Calculus my FG is 1.020. Will I have a problem hitting this FG?

I greatly appreciate any info. Thanks!

well not in a porter (although I would like to). I've used this once before and I'll be honest it gave me no carbonation after 3 weeks of fermentation and 5 weeks in the bottle, so I have reservations about one. Like you all the literature makes it sound interesting
 
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