Beer line tests & solution to the "plastic" taste

ExHempKnight said:

I'd like proof for your claim that thin-walled tubing causes oxidation.

The Tygon Silver 3/16"ID tubing has been great so far... No discernible plastic (or any other off-) taste at all. The only downside I've come across is that it's expensive compared to other lines.

And regardless of the brand of tubing, you're still going to have to balance the system, so you may well end up with 10+ feet of tubing. You can just stuff it all in the keezer, and have a ball of beer-line spaghetti, or you can take the time and keep everything coiled and wrapped, and it'll be neat and organized. That's up to you.

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So if you use the tygon silver at around 8-10 psi for most of my beers, how long would the tubing have to be your think?

FWIW 2 people on the previous page have stated that their beer tastes oxidized. I really don't want to spend the $120 on tubing.

Well, according to the calculator I found HERE, I'd say 4-6 feet (I'd go closer to 6', due to the lower internal friction of the Tygon)... It seems people have good luck with the calculations in that spreadsheet, but YMMV.

Personally, I didn't feel like dicking around with tuning line length, and went with what I knew would work for probably 99% of my carbonation/serving pressure needs. I bought a 50' length of the tubing, and cut it into quarters (12.5' each). I coiled the excess line to the same diameter of a keg, and used 2 zip ties to keep each coil together. Each coil of line sits atop it's respective keg.

I currently run 12psi, and have a reasonably fast fill time, with no excess foaming.

ExHempKnight said:

Well, according to the calculator I found HERE, I'd say 4-6 feet (I'd go closer to 6', due to the lower internal friction of the Tygon)... It seems people have good luck with the calculations in that spreadsheet, but YMMV.

Personally, I didn't feel like dicking around with tuning line length, and went with what I knew would work for probably 99% of my carbonation/serving pressure needs. I bought a 50' length of the tubing, and cut it into quarters (12.5' each). I coiled the excess line to the same diameter of a keg, and used 2 zip ties to keep each coil together. Each coil of line sits atop it's respective keg.

I currently run 12psi, and have a reasonably fast fill time, with no excess foaming.

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So do you use the Silver? I was hoping to go with the B-44-3 since it is cheaper. It's gotten good reviews in the past, but the two from this thread mentioned some bad oxidation...to the point that the first 2 oz had to be dumped. I'd rather save the money and just dump my plastic tainted beer if thats gonna happen.

Yes, I use Tygon Silver. No oxidized-beer taste I can detect.

For what it's worth I've been using LDPE tubing 1/4" OD .170 ID (made by Freelin Wade, specs here: http://www.freelin-wade.com/documents/Freelin-Wade_Polyethylene.pdf) with great success. Its cheap ($0.07 - $0.09 per foot), impermeable to gasses (no oxidation issues), works great in push-to-connect fittings which I use a lot of, has a small ID which provides good resistance and therefore does not require long lengths in order to balance, and has no plastic taste that I can detect (my guess is it would be equivalent to #9 in the OP).

Has anyone looked into the Tygon E-70-V-CE taste barrier tubing? I'm trying to find someone who sells it to see what size its offered in and how much it costs.

Hey guys, I was wondering if someone could steer me towards what lines they think are the best for my application.

I have this tower
http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/beer-towers/single-double/ebd4743dt-525ss.shtml

An additional factor to my setup is I am running my lines through an inch diameter copper tube that runs up into my tower.


I most definitely have the "taint" that no amount of cleaning gets rid of. Would anyone have a recommendation on the best line for a setup like that ? I was told poly lines would be very difficult to install in the tight quarters of my tower, but I am open to suggestions.

Thanks

Pyrox27 said:

I most definitely have the "taint" that no amount of cleaning gets rid of. Would anyone have a recommendation on the best line for a setup like that ? I was told poly lines would be very difficult to install in the tight quarters of my tower, but I am open to suggestions.

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The issue is that poly is harder to bend than vinyl so you wantto minimize really tight turns if possible. You can do this by using a 90 bent hose barb/nipple at the end of the shanks instead of a straight nipple

Like this:



Kal

Update: 3/16" inner diameter Bev-Seal 235 tubing is now rumoured to be available again after not being available for many years due to lack of interest. Please don't ask me where to get it - I don't know. I've simply noticed people mentioning on this forum that they are purchasing it.

Kal

See this thread for factory dropship pricing in volume. Comes in increments of 1000' roll.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/group-buy-accuflex-bev-seal-ultra-barrier-line-257625/

For small quantities some of the online vendors have started to carry it, 100' increments. To pay for costs and add a fair profit margin they seem to add about $10. Much easier to deal with and you're not stuck with a giant roll. Birdman brewing is one, some of the others have said they'd carry it too.

kal said:

Update: 3/16" inner diameter Bev-Seal 235 tubing is now rumoured to be available again after not being available for many years due to lack of interest. Please don't ask me where to get it - I don't know. I've simply noticed people mentioning on this forum that they are purchasing it.

Kal

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Yep. I got 250' of the stuff and I think I was the only Canadian in the group buy (out of over 50 people).

Birdman decided to pick some up after seeing the huge popularity of the group buy, but he sold out a few days ago. But apparently I sparked some interest with a few HBT members the day afterwards (someone had obvious transferring of a disgusting off-flavor from a previous batch), and apparently they then showed enough interest for Birdman to commit to another order of the stuff...

He should be getting it in about a week, but depending on how much he bought, I wouldn't be surprised if he sells out entirely from pre-orders. So I'd act quick if you're interested

I bought 150 feet and I am a Canadian. But I had my drop shipped to a friend of mine in Washington and picked it there. Now I can get started on my Keezer

Albert

Further update on the Tygon Silver: Disconnected beer lines a month ago, and unplugged keezer (went on vacation... didn't want drunk neighbor pilfering beer). Keezer plugged back in a cold a week later, and I just hooked the lines back up.

Beer sat in the disconnected, warm line for 3-4 weeks, and still tasted perfect when I drew off a pint just now.

Simgo here in canada offers Bev Seal Ultra 235 in 3/16 its .24 a foot I was told shipping to london ontario for 50' would be about 15 bux.

Using Tygon Silver with super results!

I just installed the bev-seal ultra. I picked up 50 ft from Farmhousebrewingsupply.com for 16 bucks (real cheap!) and so far it is working well, but I will run it through it's paces in my outdoors tower kegerator. The lines I pulled out were almost black from staining and grossness.

I just wanted to say that those people who are having trouble with getting this tubing to fit on 1/4 inch barbs must not be using a heat gun. I was able to stretch (melt) 3/16" it over my 1/4 barbs in a couple of minutes, but I see that if you didn't have a heat gun it wouldn't happen at all.

And how would you say the resistance is compared to your old lines? ie what PSI and length do you find works for you?

I run 20 feet per line. This has given great pours from 12-15 psi so far.

craigevo said:

And how would you say the resistance is compared to your old lines? ie what PSI and length do you find works for you?

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I have a dorm fridge with a warm tower, with taps about 1.5 ft above my kegs. Each line is 12.5 ft and I serve at 12 or so psi with great results, quick pour and no foaming issues. Again it is with 3/16 size tubing which I think helps. If It was 1/4 I'd need a much longer line at those pressures.

*edit* The resistence is about the same as my old lines, both the same ID. It is weird change though is that since these lines are ridged you can feel a "knock" as you close the faucet.

As an update. I just installed my 3/16 bevflex lines.Similiar results and comments to others here..

I estimate the resistance to be about 1 psi per foot. So I needed double the length of my previous micromatic 3/16 pvc lines.
I am now serving two lines at 7-8psi with 8 foot and two lines at 14psi with 14 foot. no foaming issues. very nice pour.

As others have said in this and the other thread on this line, its a ***** to install. I tried hot water which was useless. I tried a heat blower from a soldering iron, kind of worked but burned my fingers badly and also melted the tubing. Gave up for a while and then realised I could kind of ream the tubing. I got three drill bits in increasing size and put them in a vice facing vertical with the blunt side upwards. then I heated the bit with my heat blower/soldering iron for a few secs. then repeatedly push down on it with the tubing and pull out until i got an inch or so down. did this with 3 bits of increasing size and then it was pretty easy to push over the barbs.

The lines are more rigid than my old pvc ones and also push against the fridge door a bit so it is harder to close the door and easier to leave it ajar without realising.

Overall I'm satisfied, although I would recommend taking care and time with the installation.

If you're just boring out the tubing, aren't you defeating the purpose of the bevflex line?

AlphaPyro said:

If you're just boring out the tubing, aren't you defeating the purpose of the bevflex line?

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It doesn't appear that he's actually drilling the tubing out, just getting it on increasing diameters until he's able to get it on the barb.

Yes I'm just boring out the first inch of each side of the tube to get it on the barbs. You can use whatever method you can think up but I used hot drill bits - the blunt end not the sharp end

craigevo said:

Yes I'm just boring out the first inch of each side of the tube to get it on the barbs. You can use whatever method you can think up but I used hot drill bits - the blunt end not the sharp end

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Not actually boring that would mean the removal of material he is stretching the tube

We've installed Accuflex BevSeal several times, trying different methods. In our opinion, the easiest way is to use a heat gun. We just use a cheap one (like $12) from Harbor Freight. We'll try to get a video posted on our website under this product to show you how we do it. But it really is not difficult at all - on 1/4" or 3/16" barbs, or on picnic taps, once you get the hang of it.

The key is to be patient, heat slowly, alternating the direction of the heat gun - so you are pointing it both directly inside the tube, and then directly at the side wall of the tube, all the way around. This warms both the inner and outer layers. We then take a small needle nose, and gently apply pressure to expand the diameter of the tubing end. Then we repeat this, usually no more than 3 times total. Then we push the barb in. You shouldn't need much force to get the barb in in there. If done correctly, you actually won't even need clamps. I think the tubing contracts as it cools and tightens up around the barb. (The ones we have on our keezer don't use clamps. But just to be safe, it certainly doesn't hurt to put a clamp on it.)

What you don't want to do is to overheat it. If you do, it actually becomes too flimsy and when you push in the barb, it just folds over, crumbles up. Or, if you over heat, you'll find that stretching out the tubing with the pliers may cause it to rip the tubing end. I think it is important to keep the inner layer intact, and if you overheat, you'll disintegrate the inner layer of the tube.

The first time we did it, we overheated the tube, and learned what happens. But if that happens, chalk it up to learning, and just snip off the inch of tube that was mangled and try again. By the second attempt, we nailed it.

If you don't want to invest in a heat gun, then boiling water is the next best method...but not quite as easy as the heat gun. I feel that I have more control over the temperature using a heat gun.

Hope that helps...

The problem I have with flaring with a needle nose pliers is that it creates a tapered flare. I used to work for a company that would flare PFA and PVDF. They used a tool that would create a square flare. Wonder if it would work for the BevSeal.

http://www.harringtonplastics.com/Semiconductor.cfm

BirdmanBrewingCo said:

We've installed Accuflex BevSeal several times, trying different methods. In our opinion, the easiest way is to use a heat gun. We just use a cheap one (like $12) from Harbor Freight. We'll try to get a video posted on our website under this product to show you how we do it. But it really is not difficult at all - on 1/4" or 3/16" barbs, or on picnic taps, once you get the hang of it.

The key is to be patient, heat slowly, alternating the direction of the heat gun - so you are pointing it both directly inside the tube, and then directly at the side wall of the tube, all the way around. This warms both the inner and outer layers. We then take a small needle nose, and gently apply pressure to expand the diameter of the tubing end. Then we repeat this, usually no more than 3 times total. Then we push the barb in. You shouldn't need much force to get the barb in in there. If done correctly, you actually won't even need clamps. I think the tubing contracts as it cools and tightens up around the barb. (The ones we have on our keezer don't use clamps. But just to be safe, it certainly doesn't hurt to put a clamp on it.)

What you don't want to do is to overheat it. If you do, it actually becomes too flimsy and when you push in the barb, it just folds over, crumbles up. Or, if you over heat, you'll find that stretching out the tubing with the pliers may cause it to rip the tubing end. I think it is important to keep the inner layer intact, and if you overheat, you'll disintegrate the inner layer of the tube.

The first time we did it, we overheated the tube, and learned what happens. But if that happens, chalk it up to learning, and just snip off the inch of tube that was mangled and try again. By the second attempt, we nailed it.

If you don't want to invest in a heat gun, then boiling water is the next best method...but not quite as easy as the heat gun. I feel that I have more control over the temperature using a heat gun.

Hope that helps...

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Good suggestions. For me the thing that made it really easy to install was heating the barb up a little more than the tubing. Putting the barb onto a spare QD or shank to make it easier to hold on to and maneuver also helps a lot.

I have always used a tapered punch or a center punch tool to stretch the hose end. I'll use a heat gun or lighter to heat up the end of the hose with out melting it and then stretch the hose to fit over the barb. Getting the barb wet but not cooling the hose is important. It doesn't get any easier that that. Good luck...

Cheers!

It seems as if I have found the magic thread. I've been looking at tubing, barbs, and everything else all day, and I have officially confused myself more than I was when I started. I come to those more experienced than me to seek guidance.

I have a True TDD-2. I have two towers, four Perlick taps. I am aiming to replace all my hoses and clean things up a bit. I also plan to add a 5th coupler for a Blichmann Beer Gun. (I know, I don't need it, but I already have it.)

Oh, and I have this little gem. :rockin:



My intent is to run tubing from my towers to the top panel.

I will run beverage from the top panel to the couplers.

I will run gas from the bottom of the panel to the couplers.

My CO2 tank will connect to the right inlet on the gas panel.

Instead of plugging the left end, I will run a split valve that will enable me to send one CO2 line to the coupler, and one to the beer gun. Of course, these valves will be turned off when not in use. I will simply use the regulator off the CO2 bottle to control PSI for beer gun use.

Now, all that being said, I really want to clean up the mess of lines in my kegerator. In the current configuration, I've always got a CO2 line or a beverage line in the way. I intend to run the lines to the faucets neatly against the walls of the kegerator, with plumbing mounts keeping them in place. This should allow for all the free floating lines to be coming from the left, meaning I can now easily move things out of the way when I clean the inside of the kegerator, instead of getting smacking in the head and tangled in hoses.

I'm looking at the 3/16" Accuflex Bev-Seal line from Birdman. Am I correct that this is truly 3/16" inner diameter?
http://www.birdmanbrewing.com/accuflex-bev-seal-ultra-barrier-tubing-3-16-id-100ft-free-shipping/

Is there any flawed logic in my setup? I'm thinking 5ft of tubing for each beverage run, meaning 10ft total length per keg? Is this grossly off on the too long or too short side?

Will normal 3/16" barbs work with this? I see no reason why they shouldn't.

How stiff is this stuff in reality. Will it make curves and bends? Will it stay put when moved out of the way?

Any help would be appreciated.

Regarding the Tygon Silver: if you want a shorter beer line, why not use the 1/8" ID ? Is it not mentioned because it is difficult to get size adapters so it fits equipment connections?

Is it relatively flexible when it is cold? Is it as flexible as silicone tube, or standard vinyl beer line?

I have a keg at 14 psi. I prefer a short beer line that is 2' to 6' long.

The Tygon is flexible when cold....not really sure compared to either silicon or vinyl. What I have noticed is the first 2 oz of beer from the tap after not using for a few days or longer, comes out flat versus foamy like other lines.

Tygon becomes soft when gently heated, and slipping over barbs waveryey easy.

coming to this thread late

just got a refund for some cheap-o vinyl tubing from Midwest Brewing. It made every beer smell like inflating a beach ball. Surprised they sell this stuff to anyone that DOESN'T end up returning it

So what are you guys currently using? BevSeal 235? BevLex 200? Which online store has the good deals right now?

CHI is the best source I've found for 3/16" BevSeal Ultra.

twd000 said:

So what are you guys currently using? BevSeal 235? BevLex 200? Which online store has the good deals right now?

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Birdman brewing has 100' of the 3/16" Bev-Seal for $40 shipped. That's the only thing I've ever used in my kegerator so I can't compare it to BevLex or other options, but other than a bit of wrangling up front with the stiffness of the lines I've been completely satisfied with it.

just bought 50 ft of 3/16 Bev Seal Ultra from Farmhouse Brewing Supply for $14. Cheap!

Is the Bev-Seal Ultra a 2.0 psi per foot or a 0.45 psi per foot pressure drop? I have heard conflicting answers to this question.

For an 11.5 psi system with 5 psi target dispensing pressure, .5 psi of vertical drop and 3 psi shank/tap drop the line would need to balance 3 psi.

This puts the line at 1.3 ft or 6.7 ft.... CHI shows 2.0 psi/ft but that doesn't make sense based on what I've read on this forum with folks having 20ft lines in their keezers and such.

FredTheNuke said:

Is the Bev-Seal Ultra a 2.0 psi per foot or a 0.45 psi per foot pressure drop? I have heard conflicting answers to this question.

For an 11.5 psi system with 5 psi target dispensing pressure, .5 psi of vertical drop and 3 psi shank/tap drop the line would need to balance 3 psi.

This puts the line at 1.3 ft or 6.7 ft.... CHI shows 2.0 psi/ft but that doesn't make sense based on what I've read on this forum with folks having 20ft lines in their keezers and such.

Click to expand...

Pressure drop or line resistance is not a linear function, and depends highly on the flow rate. All of the published line resistance figures I've seen for beer line are for a flow rate of 1 gal/min. This is what commercial systems use because it's the fastest you can pour beer under commercial conditions (33-36F, <=2.7 vol) without excessive foaming. Most home brewers and beer snobs prefer warmer serving temperatures, which require a slower flow rate to prevent foaming, which means the line resistance will be drastically less than any of the figures you'll find. Unless you plan on using commercial serving temperatures and carb levels, any of the line balancing calculators or equations you find will be seriously flawed, and typically result in a firehouse of foam.

The line length required for a specific flow rate can be calculated, but the maximum flow rate that doesn't cause foaming for a particular temperature and carb level isn't all that easy to guess. Common practice has become to use extra long lines to ensure that there's not excessive foam. This allows for a wide variety of serving temperatures and carb levels, which is beneficial for many home brewers who like to experiment with such things, or carb different styles to different levels. While the resulting pour is slower, it's only very slightly slower since line resistance decreases exponentially as flow rate decreases. I'm not running a bar where my bottom line is impacted by how fast I can pour a round of pints, so the flexibility of my extra long lines is well worth the extra ~2 seconds it takes me to pour a beer. Besides, if I have time to drink a beer, I have an extra two seconds to spare.

For conventional 3/16" ID PVC beer line, 1 foot per dispensing psi is the best rule of thumb going, imnsfho. And from accounts by folks I'm inclined to trust, I'd up that to 2 feet of the same ID Bev Seal Ultra 235 line...

Cheers!

Anyone know any links to current deals on this line?