Attempting 40%+ ABV beer... "Barley Brandy"

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Cape Brewing

DOH!!! Stupid brewing...
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A vast majority of folks on HBT are smaht. They stay out of the dark little crevasses that a few of us "Massholes" tend to frequent among the threads. They're really quite shadey areas and leaving well enough alone is typically good advice. No need in getting sucked down to our level.

That said... We've been known to make a decent beer and a few fairly unusual ones at that (Utopias clone, Russian River Consecration clone, a turbid mash lambic in a oak barrel, etc). Recently, during our usual wasting of electrons with silly drivel, I half-jokingly said that I was going to one-up the rotund nurse that posts from time to time here on HBT by not only brewing his Utopias clone (after he failed MISERABLY at trying to brew that beer again this year), but also going one better and doubling up the ABV on it just to piss him off.

Given his brewing knowledge is roughly equivilent to that of a mildly training gorilla, he scoffed.. "BAH!!! You're whacked in the head if you think you can make a 40% ABV beer!!! Now bring me So-lo and the woo-kie!!!"

To which a couple of us simply asked gorilla-boy to google an eisbock. We then gave him two days to try to figure out a keyboard.

Over those two days... I thought more and more about it... and now, I am actually going to try it.

High level game plan:

1) brew the Utopias clone
2) ferment it CORRECTLY
3) "eisbock it"
4) age it for a reeeeeeeeally long time.
5) drink some
6) fall down

While all of the above sounds awfully silly... I'm actually very serious about doing it and have thought through a fairly detailed schedule of how I intend to it through each step.

I keep coming out to one point though and this is the main reason why I started the thread...

I'm very mildly nervous about how syrupy the end product is going to be. The first Utopias clone that was made by my esteemed gorilla friend... was actually amazing (as painful as that is to admit). My issue is basically taking that beer and pulling 50% of the water out of it. I'm undecided on what I think that's going to leave.... and will be it like maple syrup in terms of consistancy.

I don't think it will be too syrupy but... we're going to find out.
 
Absolutely... i've got a pretty solid read on how I want to do the yeast.

OG on the U clone will come in just over 1200 and I'm basically only going to brew 3 gallons of it.

Before I do that, i'm going to brew 10 gallons of a 1080 IIIPA that I make and ferment that out with 099 (Super High gravity yeast).

I'm going to pitch an asston (a scientific brewing term) of US-05 onto the 1200 U wort and see if I can get that wort to come down at all.

Once the IIIPA is fermented out... I'll rack that off the cake, probably wash the yeast, and then rack the U onto it... hoping that will have dropped at least a little.

I'll then let that large 099 cake chew away at the U wort for a bit while I brew another 3 gallons of the U. Once that second 3 gallons is brewed, I'll do the same thing... pitch a ton of US-05 to try to bring it down AT ALL.

Once the US-05 conks out (probably pretty quickly), I'll rack the second 3 gallons onto the first three gallons which, should be cranking away nicely.

I'll also do 099 yeast starters on the side and feed the entire six gallons with those and air periodically.
 
Sounds like hard work and big bucks. Good luck. Make sure to send a bottle to Jim Koch. Something like this is resumé material for a R&D brewlab.
 
hard work but not really big bucks... I get my two-row by the sack as it is for $35 per 55 lbs... and that makes up the bulk of the grain bill. Yeast, isn't that bad since I'm making massive starters and I was going to make the IIIPA anyway.

I am seriously considering a 5 gallon oak barrel for about $125 since I am assuming this stuff will have to sit at least two years before someone could even sip it... so..

I don't think it'll be that bad.
 
Cape, does it make sense to brew a little more of a not-quite-as-extreme brew and pull out a higher amount of water? Instead of removing 50% of the water from a 20% beer, remove two-thirds of the water from a 14% beer?

I know you're trying to one-up our nursemaid friend and all, but doing it that way seems like it would leave fewer spots for ****ing up the fermentation (and you wouldn't have to spend a fortnight doing the original boil).
 
Yeah, that makes way too much sense. I'm not up for that.

And I don't see me boiling for the 12 hours Captain Chuckles and Flounder usually do. I'm only shooting for a three gallon batch and I boil off at almost 2 gallons an hour on my rig so... even if I have to boil 10 gallons down to 3... I don't think I'll be out there until 2:00 am like they do.

... and I'm not super concerned about fermentation. I think the bumbling duo would have fermented out if they had stuck to what they did the last two years and not effed with it... so... again, not super worried about fermenting.


AM worried about the "syrup effect" though and I don't know how you get around that unless you dry the beer out BIG TIME... I guess that's an argument for your approach but... where's the fun in THAT?
 
My two cents, why do a batch size that small? If you have 5 gallons of your 1200 post-boil wort, that's still only going to be about 2-2.5 gallons of final product when all is said and done.

You really want to do all this work to end up with a gallon and a half of "freeze-whiskey"?
 
For what it is worth...

I see a few things worthy of mention.

O2 - If you are not going to use an O2 stone you may stall out early. O2, or lack there of, is one of the biggest factors when fermenting with a super high OG. IMO you really need to use O2 + a stone for this one...

I am not the yeast expert but I have ALWAYS read that you should never pitch onto a super hoppy yeast cake because the hop oils attach themselves to the yeast's cell walls.

About eisening (I will refer to it as freeze concentration from here forward)...the higher the ABV% is to start the harder it gets to get the water to freeze. 20% is probably going to be really hard to get it to freeze very well. I highly doubt you will get anywhere near a 50% jump in ABV you are planning on. The other thing you should know is that you really only get 1 good freeze + thaw before it starts to get to that point of not wanting to freeze correctly, with a home freezer.

Best of luck! :mug:
 
My two cents, why do a batch size that small? If you have 5 gallons of your 1200 post-boil wort, that's still only going to be about 2-2.5 gallons of final product when all is said and done.

doing TWO small batches...

My goal is to buy a 5 gallon oak barrel and have that filled once everything is off the yeast.
 
Cape Brewing said:
And I dunno... can you really pull almost 70% of the water out of a beer by freezing??

Theoretically with a cold enough freezer and multiple freeze/thaw cycles using temperature control during the thaw 100% water reduction could be possible.
 
For what it is worth...

I see a few things worthy of mention.

O2 - If you are not going to use an O2 stone you may stall out early. O2, or lack there of, is one of the biggest factors when fermenting with a super high OG. IMO you really need to use O2 + a stone for this one...:

Got one... fully intend on using it early and often


I am not the yeast expert but I have ALWAYS read that you should never pitch onto a super hoppy yeast cake because the hop oils attach themselves to the yeast's cell walls....:

Solid point but I'm not too too worried about it given a couple of things:
1) I dry hop my IIIPA with over a pound of hops... AFTER I rack off the yeast so I don't know that there will be a asston of hops oils there
2) if there are, I'm guessing the ABV and very long aging process will make any hop flavor aroma dissappear instantly.
... unless you are saying the yeast will struggle simply because the oils are there.

About eisening (I will refer to it as freeze concentration from here forward)...the higher the ABV% is to start the harder it gets to get the water to freeze. 20% is probably going to be really hard to get it to freeze very well. I highly doubt you will get anywhere near a 50% jump in ABV you are planning on. The other thing you should know is that you really only get 1 good freeze + thaw before it starts to get to that point of not wanting to freeze correctly, with a home freezer.....:

We'll see... NOT disagreeing... just don't know. I know this is how BrewDog makes their monster ABV beers and they were able to get End of History up to 55%. My freezer goes to -6f so I'm hoping that'll be enough to pull a fair amount of water out.

If nothing else, I think it'll be an interesting experiment.

Best of luck! :mug:

thx :mug:
 
If you are having problems getting it to freeze after the first freeze you could always go and get some dry ice and use a lb or two of that to see how much in brings the temp down in your freezer. -147F is the temp of dry ice if I remember correctly so it should be pretty effective at bringing down the temp in a small volume space with little heat loss.
 
Also thinking the lowest mash temp I can get away with... and mashing for at least 90 minutes

solid call on the dry ice! I'll put that little nugget of info in the back of my mind.
 
Good luck. I have similar plans. My 100th batch coming up will be my "Insanity Stout", 25% ABV attempt. WLP099 loves nutrient and O2.

Some time after I plan to brew another and freeze concentrate it. I may need to see if I can call in backup as far as a freezer is concerned... I wonder if Dippin' Dots here in KY will be willing to help :). Only one way to find out... Their freezer is -50*F.
 
Thats more or less how Brew Dog brews their Tactical Nuclear Penguin. They brew a massive Imp stout, age it in oak and then keep freezing off the water in an ice cream factory.
 
Maybe that's my answer to my concerns around the final product being too syrupy... if BrewDog can do an Impy Stout this way, you figure I should be able to pull it off without it being absolute cough syrup.

Now... will it be GOOD?!?!? Jesus... who knows.

I'm thinking about adding a handful of peated malt... aging in oak for a long long time... maybe black cherries?

We'll have to see what the stuff tastes like.
 
Instead if he barrel, why not a corny with oak chips or an oak rod. Also you could seal it without worry of to much o2 exposure. When it comes time for freezing just make sure your freezing in plastic that can take the expand and contracting of the freeze.
 
Instead if he barrel, why not a corny with oak chips or an oak rod. Also you could seal it without worry of to much o2 exposure. When it comes time for freezing just make sure your freezing in plastic that can take the expand and contracting of the freeze.

I'm really not worried about O2 at a beer approaching 100 proof... I'm not sure a little oxidation would be a bad thing.

Plus... at this point, we're not even really talking "beer". Hell, the U isn't "beer" so much and I think the normal rules and conventions of stuff like oxidation being a problem, etc. start to break down.
 
... unless you are saying the yeast will struggle simply because the oils are there.
This is what I gathered. They were concerned for yeast viability and overall health. I would get a resident yeast guru to confirm or deny this.

We'll see... NOT disagreeing... just don't know. I know this is how BrewDog makes their monster ABV beers and they were able to get End of History up to 55%. My freezer goes to -6f so I'm hoping that'll be enough to pull a fair amount of water out.

I am not going to go into the dissertation of the how and why's of freeze concentration. I have done it on a Barley Wine and that is still a "work in progress" (I have a damn good reason as to why many of my posts/projects have been going slow but that is it's own post...lol).

On my BW I got 1 good pass at a 15%ish ABV. After that it was a PITA trying to get the concentration to work correctly at room temps. The Ice "slush" is more liquid than solid. A funnel and cheese cloth "filter" proved to work but the tiny ice shards would melt almost as fast as the liquid poured through it. IMO this may have had better results and felt less futile if done in a room where the temp was -6F or colder and it would be large enough for you + your equipment.

Best of luck!
 
My two cents, why do a batch size that small? If you have 5 gallons of your 1200 post-boil wort, that's still only going to be about 2-2.5 gallons of final product when all is said and done.


Ahhhh... gotcha Bird... sorry... yes, you're right... I'm off in left field. I just got what you're saying... duhhh... cut it in half via freezing and I'm only going to have a couple of gallons.

Sorry... brain cramp.

Yeah, we'll see. I'll have to noodle on that.
 
Have you thought about how you will separate the slush from the beer yet?
 
Seems like if you freeze the beer in a corny keg, the slushy bits all ought to be float at the top. Hit it with some CO2 and transfer the remaining liquid (the dip tube's at the bottom, after all) to a fresh, clean, sanitized keg. I know you're not paranoid about adding a little O2, but seems like that would help you minimize any oxidation. Using anything like a slotted spoon or whatever to remove the ice, seems likely you'd aerate the **** out of it.

Actually, why not do a practice eisbier run on something else first? Make a pale-ale eis or something, get the process down before ****ing around with the real deal. You know how dumb it is to try something brand new and completely unproven on a beer like the Utopias.
 
Seems like if you freeze the beer in a corny keg, the slushy bits all ought to be float at the top. Hit it with some CO2 and transfer the remaining liquid (the dip tube's at the bottom, after all) to a fresh, clean, sanitized keg. I know you're not paranoid about adding a little O2, but seems like that would help you minimize any oxidation. Using anything like a slotted spoon or whatever to remove the ice, seems likely you'd aerate the **** out of it.

Actually, why not do a practice eisbier run on something else first? Make a pale-ale eis or something, get the process down before ****ing around with the real deal. You know how dumb it is to try something brand new and completely unproven on a beer like the Utopias.

I don't know what I think about freezing beer in a metal corny I would intend to use again. Expansion might warp the corny making it unusable. The slightest warp in the wrong place could cause poor seals.
 
Agreed whole-heartedly Bird.

I dont know though... I don't see how racking the "beer" to a sanitizes pot and then freezing the pot, and then gently scooping out the ice with a cheese cloth covered slotted spoon wouldn't work.

What am I gonna do?? Infect it? At 40%+ ABV?
 
Well, you're going to need to baby the freezing process, you can't let it get to the point of it being frozen solid or it's not going to work anyway. You also can't have the cornie completely full. The ice will take up a little more volume, but that'll just add a little pressure, it should be OK.

Worst-case, you **** up a cornie. The grain bill's more spendy than a new cornie, and it's better than ****ing up a glass carboy!
 
Agreed whole-heartedly Bird.

I dont know though... I don't see how racking the "beer" to a sanitizes pot and then freezing the pot, and then gently scooping out the ice with a cheese cloth covered slotted spoon wouldn't work.

What am I gonna do?? Infect it? At 40%+ ABV?

Corney keg's going to be easier, ain't it (assuming it works)? Put it in the freezer until it's slushy. Hook up the CO2 and a jumper tube, hit the gas and fill the second keg. If you want/need to repeat the process, toss the now-filled one in the freezer and clean out the ice that's left in the first one.

The only thing that's "hard" is checking the cornie while it's in the freezer, picking it up and listening to hear if it's slushy or not. You'd have to babysit the beer in the open stockpot anyway.
 
No keezer.... Walk-in but that only gets down to about freezing at its coldest. I have a couple of fermentation fridges but same thing.... And none of the freezers on those would fit a corny.

Just got a new fridge for the kitchen and that one is pretty hard core. I can fit a large pot in that freezer and that goes down to -6.

Then... I like the dry ice idea. Maybe go the freezer route and then move it to a cooler full of dry ice to bring it down further
 
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