Tips for huge beer using biab

pretzelb said:

It is off topic but as a shopper for a new system I'd like to hear your thoughts on re circulation and bags vs SS baskets. From what I've read it seems like that lost space from a basket comes in handy when trying to re circulate during the mash.

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I'm a fan of simple vs re circulation. I feel that simply insulating the kettle will suffice to hold mash temps adequate to mash to a reasonable tolerance.

If I were to recirculate I think I would prefer a basket and bag over a FB.

From what little I've read, a coarser crush is wise to avoid a stuck recirc, so kinda counter intuitive to one that has been doing BIAB with a fine crush.

If it makes you happy to recirc w pid and digital display showing spot on mash temps that's great enjoy

I'm just not sold that it is the pathway to better beer I guess.

Did I mention I like simple.

Cheers and thanks!

wilserbrewer said:

I'm a fan of simple vs re circulation. I feel that simply insulating the kettle will suffice to hold mash temps adequate to mash to a reasonable tolerance.

If I were to recirculate I think I would prefer a basket and bag over a FB.

From what little I've read, a coarser crush is wise to avoid a stuck recirc, so kinda counter intuitive to one that has been doing BIAB with a fine crush.

If it makes you happy to recirc w pid and digital display showing spot on mash temps that's great enjoy

I'm just not sold that it is the pathway to better beer I guess.

Did I mention I like simple.

Cheers and thanks!

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I agree. I started doing BIAB with a bag in a strainer basket, but soon came to the conclusion that the water/wort outside and under the basket wasn't doing me much/any good. So I quit using the basket, and just use the bag now. Insulate well, and temperature holds within a few degrees.

I have plans to eventually switch to a recirculating e-BIAB system, and when I do that I plan to go back to the bag in the basket. With recirc, the space outside the basket is no longer "dead" space, so can better absorb sugar from the grain.

Brew on

pretzelb said:

At 90 minutes I had 25.4 brix with a target of 27. Let it sit another 10 and hit 27. Drained to BK and tried to squeeze. About 3.3g at 27.4 brix. Added the 4g sparge, mixed, let sit for 10 then drained. About 17 brix on 2nd running. Squeezed until about 7.4g.

What a mess.

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Sounds perfect! Where you brew? Throw a huge towell down just in case next time

Passive thats the term i like. Passive +1

I just did a 28.5 pd Zhukov clone, as was stated earlier, grind to dust, get as much water in as possible and pray for the best.

What has not been mentioned, but what I found invaluable is to partigyle - so much grain you really need to make another 5-gallon batch.

The nitty gritty details for my batch were as follows:
1) 10.5 gallons of water, used a steel basket, ground to flour - double grind, let drip for about 30 minutes (tilting steel basket on its side) and partigyle

My mash was incredibly thick - I real could have used a larger pot, but all I have are 15 gallon pots. I believe my target OG was 1.110 or some such, I notched up 1.094.

The steel basket was invaluable, I don't have a hoist so I had to muscle it out and is was about all I could lift. Without a basket to lift, etc., I would not have been able to do the grain removal as easily. I didn't take an SG of my second runnings (got lazy) but it looked dark as night and I added a good amount of adjuncts (honey, old malt extract and malt booster - basically the kitchen sink).

I also forgot to mention that I did a 30 minute mash at 155 - seemed to do the trick. Both 5-gallon batches are happily fermenting away as I type.

I'm unsure I'll go this large again without a hoist, it was a really difficult pull, however the second batch was an easier pull - I guess I was mentally prepared.

Hey pretz.. Sorry I'm late to give you any advice. I've done a barley wine with around 40lbs of grain, double-bagged in a 15 gallon pot, and it was a struggle. This was before I had a pulley in the garage which would have made it a piece of cake. As it was, I had to put an A-frame ladder over the kettle and lift it from above while a helper put a drain tub in place. I used my mash paddle through the handles in the bag so that helped too.

From the looks of it, you could have calculated a volume of strike water to leave you with about an inch from the top of the kettle and then stirred very carefully.

Did you end up adding any dme to compensate or sugar to primary? I think I had to add both to get to the 12% abv I was targeting, based on the efficiency I was getting on my setup at that time.

It's really a question that all of us biabers should be answering for ourselves. What is the largest beer we can feasibly brew on our setups, factoring in kettle size and ability to lift the bag. Obviously you want as much gravity contribution coming from grain as possible, but there's no shame in making up a few percentage points with dme. You'll still get plenty of flavor from the mash.

Two or three bags pulled one at a time?

Yep, Two. I was concerned that the layers would somehow reduce efficiency but it worked out fine.

Sorry i meant in general. In the case of 40lbs. What about 4 bags 10 lbs in each? Or 5 8 lbs in each. So if double bagging didn't mess with efficiency then using two or three together wouldnt right?

applescrap said:

Sorry i meant in general. In the case of 40lbs. What about 4 bags 10 lbs in each? Or 5 8 lbs in each. So if double bagging didn't mess with efficiency then using two or three together wouldnt right?

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Yep, you can certainly use separate bags. I guess the challenge there is stirring well inside each bag and dealing with the tops of the bags so they can still be grabbed easily and/or don't mess with the seal of the lid for holding temperature.

Yes, multiple bags will work, I've never done it, but have sold someone 3 smaller bags to use with a 15 gallon kettle.

There is a vid on U tube, the guy does a 10 gallon batch in a keggle using 3 bags, he even rinses them with a garden hose sprayer over the pot as makeshift sparge. Lol

wilserbrewer said:

Yes, multiple bags will work, I've never done it, but have sold someone 3 smaller bags to use with a 15 gallon kettle.

There is a vid on U tube, the guy does a 10 gallon batch in a keggle using 3 bags, he even rinses them with a garden hose sprayer over the pot as makeshift sparge. Lol

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That's definitely where I got the idea sids easy 10 gallon batch or something. Lol

wilserbrewer said:

I'm a fan of simple vs re circulation. I feel that simply insulating the kettle will suffice to hold mash temps adequate to mash to a reasonable tolerance.

If I were to recirculate I think I would prefer a basket and bag over a FB.

From what little I've read, a coarser crush is wise to avoid a stuck recirc, so kinda counter intuitive to one that has been doing BIAB with a fine crush.

If it makes you happy to recirc w pid and digital display showing spot on mash temps that's great enjoy

I'm just not sold that it is the pathway to better beer I guess.

Did I mention I like simple.

Cheers and thanks!

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I'm a fan of simple but lately I've been obsessed with trying to control my mash temps. For some reason I'm not good at hitting the desired mash temp so controlling the temp is just the second concern. I find the idea of a re-circulation system with a pid to be expensive but it would make the mash simple.

Noob question, but I couldn't find it in this thread: What type of sparge do you recommend for biab? I've seen dunk sparging and pour over, both of which I understand you do with ~170F, right?

FYI, this was a very helpful thread for overall understanding of biab with big beers, mash theory, and efficiencies - thank you all!

olddirtybaird said:

Noob question, but I couldn't find it in this thread: What type of sparge do you recommend for biab? I've seen dunk sparging and pour over, both of which I understand you do with ~170F, right?

FYI, this was a very helpful thread for overall understanding of biab with big beers, mash theory, and efficiencies - thank you all!

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A dunk sparge is easier to conduct in a way that gives you optimal or near optimal efficiency. Just squeeze prior to placing the bag in the sparge vessel, open the bag and stir the grains well for a few minutes, drain and squeeze the bag.

The efficiency obtained with a pour over sparge can vary widely, depending on the details of how it's conducted. You need to pour slowly and make sure that the water is distributed evenly throughout the grain mass (much like with fly sparging in a traditional MLT.)

Sparge water temp is not important for batch sparging. For pour over sparging, hot water will help the sugar diffuse into the sparge water quicker during the short time the water remains in the grain mass.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

A dunk sparge is easier to conduct in a way that gives you optimal or near optimal efficiency. Just squeeze prior to placing the bag in the sparge vessel, open the bag and stir the grains well for a few minutes, drain and squeeze the bag.

The efficiency obtained with a pour over sparge can vary widely, depending on the details of how it's conducted. You need to pour slowly and make sure that the water is distributed evenly throughout the grain mass (much like with fly sparging in a traditional MLT.)

Sparge water temp is not important for batch sparging. For pour over sparging, hot water will help the sugar diffuse into the sparge water quicker during the short time the water remains in the grain mass.

Brew on

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Is batch sparging the same as dunk sparging? If not, what water temp for dunk sparging?

Also, how do you determine what volume to sparge with? does anyone know of the top of their head what size vessels would be needed to say 10, 15, 20 lb batches with?

fun4stuff said:

Is batch sparging the same as dunk sparging? If not, what water temp for dunk sparging?

Also, how do you determine what volume to sparge with? does anyone know of the top of their head what size vessels would be needed to say 10, 15, 20 lb batches with?

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Yes, a dunk sparge is the same as a batch sparge.

Sparge volume is your target pre-boil volume minus the volume of your first runnings (how much wort you get when you drain the mash.) Your first runnings volume will be strike water volume minus grain weight times the grain absorption rate. Grain absorption rate can be anywhere from 0.04 to 0.12 gal/lb depending on how well you drain and/or squeeze. You will need to determine the grain absorption rate for your process.

Brew on

fun4stuff said:

does anyone know of the top of their head what size vessels would be needed to say 10, 15, 20 lb batches with?

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Typically you would like the kettle to be a minimum of twice the size of your batch to do a full volume mash.

A 20 gallon kettle works nicely for 10 gallon batches. Of course there are exceptions to this with high gravity beers, but a simple sparge is not that difficult.

fun4stuff said:

... does anyone know of the top of their head what size vessels would be needed to say 10, 15, 20 lb batches with?

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The following chart gives an estimate of the kettle size required for a 5 gal batch (5.5 gal in fermenter, 6.7 gal pre-boil, 0.08 gal/lb grain absorption) full volume BIAB (no sparge) for different grain bill weights. The pot size line assumes you want 1 gal of freeboard volume above the level of the mash in the pot in order to facilitate stirring. For a 10 gal batch, just double the grain wt and pot volume numbers. For 15 gal, triple them, for 20 gal, quadruple them.



Brew on

doug293cz said:

Yes, a dunk sparge is the same as a batch sparge.

Sparge volume is your target pre-boil volume minus the volume of your first runnings (how much wort you get when you drain the mash.) Your first runnings volume will be strike water volume minus grain weight times the grain absorption rate. Grain absorption rate can be anywhere from 0.04 to 0.12 gal/lb depending on how well you drain and/or squeeze. You will need to determine the grain absorption rate for your process.

Brew on

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Yes, but do you first choose what volume to Sparge with then back calculate to figure out what your strike water volume should be (based on your prior grain absorption and boil off rate)? Priceless calculator lists 3 gallons as the default strike volume- is this a good number to start with?

I've made three biab matches so far- all bigger beers: 1.070 - 1.090.but never Sparged. My brew house efficiencies have been 67-72%. Id like to improve upon this (without making it too complicated) and also plan on making bigger bears eventually. I have a 19 gallon pot, so I don't think kettle size will be an issue for 5-10 gallon batches.

So if I chose to do a 3 gallon Sparge and I calculate that I need 9 gallons strike water, then I'll mash in 6 gallons and at the end of 90 minutes, squeeze the bag then dunk the bag in 3 gallons of water (at room temp) for 10-15 mins, then squeeze bag and add that water/wort to the first runnings wort and start boil. Is this correct?

That seems correct. Too maximize efficiency dunk or batch sparging one should target equal first and secon second runnings, or at least close.

wilserbrewer said:

That seems correct. Too maximize efficiency dunk or batch sparging one should target equal first and secon second runnings, or at least close.

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Does "first and second running" refer to the liquid you get after each mash? First running being volume after the mash and second runnings being the volume collected after dunk Sparge? So these should be equal?

Yes, resultant runnings, first runnings should be close to sparge volume as grain is saturated already.

Say 60-40 .... strike - sparge.

So I just did a Baltic Porter with an estimated OG of 1.091 at 75% efficiency.

My grain bill was 17.5 lbs and I hung it over the kettle during the boil.

I recently stopped squeezing my grain in favor of hanging it based on your experiments with hanging vs squeezing @wilserbrewer.

I've had good luck with average sized beers, getting about 76-80% efficiency over my last 3 batches using the hanging method.

Today I was at an abysmal 59% efficiency.

My hypothesis is that the larger grain bill exponentially increases the amount of wort/sugar retained by the grain. However the crush may have been altered at my LHBS which could also account for the loss.

The next time I do a big beer I'll sqeeze and see if I get better results. I was able to get 72% efficiency the last time I made an imperial IPA with a similar grain bill size.

If you want to do actual trouble shooting, and not just speculation, you really need to measure volumes and gravity at least two points. One to calculate the conversion efficiency and another to calculate the lauter efficiency. The first needs mash/first runnings gravity and the second needs sparge runnings and volumes.

pricelessbrewing said:

If you want to do actual trouble shooting, and not just speculation, you really need to measure volumes and gravity at least two points. One to calculate the conversion efficiency and another to calculate the lauter efficiency. The first needs mash/first runnings gravity and the second needs sparge runnings and volumes.

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There was no sparge. It was a full volume mash, and I couldn't accurately measure preboil gravity because the bag was hanging over the kettle and slowly changing the volume and sugar concentration.

I was just adding my experience and I am troubleshooting it, not just speculating.

TheMadKing said:

There was no sparge. It was a full volume mash, and I couldn't accurately measure preboil gravity because the bag was hanging over the kettle and slowly changing the volume and sugar concentration.

I was just adding my experience and I am troubleshooting it, not just speculating.

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How long of a boil did you specify when you calculated the volumes for this batch?

If a 60 minute boil, check out post #15 in this thread and the associated link to see if that helps...

MerlinWerks said:

How long of a boil did you specify when you calculated the volumes for this batch?

If a 60 minute boil, check out post #15 in this thread and the associated link to see if that helps...

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It was 60 minutes, that's a good idea though, I'll try that next time, thanks!

doug293cz said:

A dunk sparge is easier to conduct in a way that gives you optimal or near optimal efficiency. Just squeeze prior to placing the bag in the sparge vessel, open the bag and stir the grains well for a few minutes, drain and squeeze the bag.

The efficiency obtained with a pour over sparge can vary widely, depending on the details of how it's conducted. You need to pour slowly and make sure that the water is distributed evenly throughout the grain mass (much like with fly sparging in a traditional MLT.)

Sparge water temp is not important for batch sparging. For pour over sparging, hot water will help the sugar diffuse into the sparge water quicker during the short time the water remains in the grain mass.

Brew on

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Thanks a ton! That's very helpful! :thumbup: :beer:

I'm guessing the water temperature doesn't matter for dunk sparge since mash out isn't needed and sugars can rinse off just as easily with room temp (70F). That the logic?

I've never done a dunk sparge, only pour over, which has given me questionable results. Probably due to my technique. I'm excited to do a dunk sparge for my next beer.

Also, with big biab beers, how much does temperature fluctuations matter? For example, if target mash temp is 154F and I vary between 150-155F with stirring and relighting to bring temp up again, could those fluctuations cause efficiency issues? My thoughts were no since there are various enzymes working at all of those ranges, but wanted to check.

Thanks!

olddirtybaird said:

...

I'm guessing the water temperature doesn't matter for dunk sparge since mash out isn't needed and sugars can rinse off just as easily with room temp (70F). That the logic?

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Correct. Kai Troester did an experiment that proved this. You can read about it here: http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/. Also, all the sugar is dissolved in water as it is created. There is never any solid sugar that needs to get dissolved before the sparge water can rinse it.

olddirtybaird said:

...

Also, with big biab beers, how much does temperature fluctuations matter? For example, if target mash temp is 154F and I vary between 150-155F with stirring and relighting to bring temp up again, could those fluctuations cause efficiency issues? My thoughts were no since there are various enzymes working at all of those ranges, but wanted to check.

Thanks!

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It shouldn't make a difference in efficiency. It might make a difference in the fermentability of the wort, especially if you get to temps over about 154°F. Above that temp, beta amylase denatures rather quickly. Since beta amylase creates the most fermentable sugars more efficiently than does alpha amylase, higher temp mashes promote less fermentable wort. However given enough time, alpha amylase can break a lot of the non-fermentable sugars down to fermentable sugars. The only way to really kill mash efficiency with temperature is to get the mash temp up above about 168°F very early in the mash, thus denaturing both alpha and beta, before most of the conversion takes place. Depending on your crush size, most of your conversion can be complete between 5 and 20 minutes (finer crush is faster.)

Just how the mash reactions proceed is a complex function of water to grain ratio, temperature, time, crush particle size distribution, pH, agitation, and maybe a few more variables. The reason to control mash temp tightly is the same reason you want to control the other mash variables tightly; that is to achieve consistency batch to batch. But don't stress out over it too much, as you will get beer even without precise temperature control.

Brew on

Thanks, doug293cz! Love seeing some data behind the sparge temp. I'm looking forward to using the dunk sparge method with my next brew, amber ale.

Cheers!