Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

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I brewed the recipe around page 58 this last weekend. I was concerned about the graham crackers lowering the mash temperature so blended them in with the two cans of pumpkin and roasted both for an hour in the oven. The graham cracker aroma filled my house while cooking it and after letting it cool off to around 160 i added it in the mash and the mash temp didn't change a degree. During the sparge process all the runoff smelled intensely of graham crackers, and i was hoping that the boil wouldn't boil off the awesome aroma but the post-boil chilled wort gravity sample smelled just like a freshly opened bag of graham crackers. I have the spices and vanilla bean soaking in vodka now which i will add to the keg by taste but I have a good feeling about this one. I'll update when its finished.
 
bulldawgbrewer said:
I think I've found the secret to cloning this beer: Pumpkin Pie Extract.

I've tried several clone attempts with different variations on recipes in this forum, and the big thing I've noticed is that all of them produce good pumpkin spice ales, but none have the aroma or flavor of Pumking. I work at a brewery and we use a lot of extracts in our flavored beers from Silver Cloud Estates with great results, so I looked through their website and sure enough they have a pumpkin pie extract. I've been pulling pints out of my already kegged Pumking clone and adding drops of this stuff and I gotta tell you, its got the Pumking flavor and aroma in spades. I'm going to do some more sampling with different strengths of this stuff, then I'll be sure to post how much per gallon I end up using.

A link to the extract website:
http://www.silvercloudestates.com/product/Product.aspx?id=807

So any thoughts yet on how much of the pumpkin pie extract to use per gallon? I have thia ordered and on the way
 
I ordered the pumpkin pie extract too, i did gdlaws recipe but mine ended up like pumking clone on steroids im at 12.2% abv today. Pretty much pushing the limits of us05. The taste is very good but not sure if ill use the pumpkin pie extract on this batch, I have to make another batch to test it.
 
I get the diecetyl butter flavor, as well as graham cracker, and no off flavors if you don't over-do it. I haven't yet done the full batch, I'm waiting on it to carbonate in the keg right now. I wanted to add a little at a time after carbonation to make sure the aroma isn't overwhelming. When adding the extract to the flat beer before kegging, I was getting great aroma and flavor with around 5 drops per 12oz of beer. I tried doing more, but it goes from great to overwhelming really quickly so be careful. I'll probably scale up 4 drops per 12 oz to start, stir it up, pour a sample, try it, repeat, and go from there with small additions until its right.
 
bulldawgbrewer said:
I get the diecetyl butter flavor, as well as graham cracker, and no off flavors if you don't over-do it. I haven't yet done the full batch, I'm waiting on it to carbonate in the keg right now. I wanted to add a little at a time after carbonation to make sure the aroma isn't overwhelming. When adding the extract to the flat beer before kegging, I was getting great aroma and flavor with around 5 drops per 12oz of beer. I tried doing more, but it goes from great to overwhelming really quickly so be careful. I'll probably scale up 4 drops per 12 oz to start, stir it up, pour a sample, try it, repeat, and go from there with small additions until its right.
I want to use this at bottling, I bought a 4oz bottle. Maybe 1oz for 5 gallons? That website has some awesome extracts! I'm wondering if this is where cigar city gets some of theirs. They also have cookies and cream extract mmm.
 
bulldawgbrewer said:
I get the diecetyl butter flavor, as well as graham cracker, and no off flavors if you don't over-do it. I haven't yet done the full batch, I'm waiting on it to carbonate in the keg right now. I wanted to add a little at a time after carbonation to make sure the aroma isn't overwhelming. When adding the extract to the flat beer before kegging, I was getting great aroma and flavor with around 5 drops per 12oz of beer. I tried doing more, but it goes from great to overwhelming really quickly so be careful. I'll probably scale up 4 drops per 12 oz to start, stir it up, pour a sample, try it, repeat, and go from there with small additions until its right.

How are there extracts made differently than Capella's? It's still artificial right?
 
How are there extracts made differently than Capella's? It's still artificial right?

They have a natural version as well as an artificial version. I'm not sure how its made or how it differs from Capella's...all I know is that we use a lot of their other extracts (not the pumpkin pie) at our brewery (Terrapin) for one-off's and if it works for a microbrewery then why not a homebrewer. I plan on doing the full-batch extract process on Monday, so I'll post my results then.
 
They have a natural version as well as an artificial version. I'm not sure how its made or how it differs from Capella's...all I know is that we use a lot of their other extracts (not the pumpkin pie) at our brewery (Terrapin) for one-off's and if it works for a microbrewery then why not a homebrewer. I plan on doing the full-batch extract process on Monday, so I'll post my results then.

Its monday lol. Just looking forward to your next post.
 
I have read this entire thing today...whew. (Tried Pumking for the first time yesterday and wanted to cry that we only bought one bottle...) I am going to prep everything we need to attempt the recipe on page 57/58. I may tweak a few things based upon other comments, but even if its not exactly Pumking, I will be happy with a delicious pumpkin ale.

If anyone that brewed this wants to update on the end results...much appreciated :)
 
I'm going to attempt one of these this weekend hopefully. Thanks for all of the information! I'll report back afterward.
 
I pulled a sample of my 12 abv% gdlaws clone and added a drop of the silver creek natural pumpkin pie extract. Aroma was incrediblely pumpking, but not so sure about the taste ( could be that i needed t add more extract). Im excited about using it on the entire batch next weekend when i bottle it.
 
For those of us using quality vanilla extract rather than beans soaked in vodka, what's equivalent to two beans in 5 gallons? 2oz?
 
If you are going the pumpkin pie extract route are ANY spices needed during the boil? I feel that this would be the best way to dial in your flavor profile.
 
Its monday lol. Just looking forward to your next post.

Sorry im late! I used 2.67mL for 5 gallons. Results will vary due to different recipes, OG, FG, bitterness, etc...so I would start with 2mL and taste, then add .25mL steps until its right.
 
Its about 20 drops per mil so if you dont have an accurate small syringe you can go off of drops--5 drops for .25 mils
 
We now have two members agreeing on the Silver Cloud Estates pumpkin extract. So, can we confirm that this is the secret to Southern Tier Pumking?
 
ErieShores said:
We now have two members agreeing on the Silver Cloud Estates pumpkin extract. So, can we confirm that this is the secret to Southern Tier Pumking?

LOL, heck no! Several guys said the Capella's Graham Cracker Extract was the secret, and that was a complete dud. If 5-6 guys get good results from the Pumpkin Extract and post recipes identifying other spices they used, then we'll be making progress. Until then, Pumking is NOT cloned. :)
 
Ok... I can finally chime in on this since I'm actually drinking one right now. The stores just got them in today.

Here's my thoughts. The bottle doesn't have anything on it that mentions natural or artificial flavor. Is it not required to be on the lable if a flavor made in a laboratory via natural or artificial means is used? I know the shocktop apple wheat says "natural flavors" in order to get that honey crisp apple flavor. So unless I'm wrong, I don't think they use any of the flavors mentioned in these posts: Graham cracker, butter nut, pumpkin pie...

On the other hand I do feel the nose is a bit artificial meaning I don't think they're getting it from grain alone, so there is something. I also get the dyacetyl others claim. So butter is there, but I think the main flavor profile you're wanting to copy is:

BUTTERED RUM.

In the nose I get the notes of a SWEET RUM aroma. I'm wondering if they extract their spices with rum and use enough rum to add the flavor as well as alcohol. I feel that's how they get the higher abv that contradicts their Plato numbers?

Overall the flavor is there, but to me it's so overwhelmed by an unpleasant bitterness. Maybe age will help? I got three bottles, so ill let the others age a bit.

It does get better as it warms

Over all I feel like I'm drinking a cold butter rum. I also feel it's a bit off the mark for what I look for in a pumpkin ale.

But I feel if you concentrate on producing high dyacetyl and use rum to extract your spices, you'll get this cloned.

Pumking spice profile from their website:

vanilla, clove, allspice, cinnamon, nutmeg

Here's the ingredients for one of the butter rum recipes I found that use allspice.

1 small slice soft butter
1 tsp brown sugar
*ground cinnamon
*ground nutmeg
*allspice
*ground clove
*Vanilla extract
2 oz dark rum
Hot water

It's all there...

I think everyone's been over complicating this recipe.

Use Ringwood to get the dyacetyl (I think they filter out the yeast to keep the dyacetyl present, so this may be a challenge to obtain for the average HBer)

Stick with what info they have. Those above spices (there is no ginger btw)

two row and crystal (since they only use two grains).

Then add rum to get the ABV to 8.6/9%

Split the batch up into Gallons

With a seperate tincture of all the spices, experiment with the levels of spices.

I'm pretty confident that will get you the results you're looking for.

My 2¢

Good luck guys!

Edit: I had a thought. I know this may be silly, but Harry Potter came out in 2001. Pumking has been brewed since 2007. Maybe the inspiration to this beer was the Harry Potter "Butter Beer." This came to mind when I typed, "buttered rum beer," into google. just a thought.
 
Anyone thought of mashing with Nilla Waffers? DQ Pumpkin Pie Blizzard rocks.

Yes, I mentioned it a few posts back. I ended up making a pumpkin pie graff and mashed with nilla wafers. It's still fermenting, so haven't been able to test it yet.
 
insanim8er said:
Yes, I mentioned it a few posts back. I ended up making a pumpkin pie graff and mashed with nilla wafers. It's still fermenting, so haven't been able to test it yet.

Missed that, long thread;) Definetely report back.
 
Made the recipe on page 58 of this thread yeasterday. Not sure what the hell I did...but my end OG was way high 1.104ish. I may have boiled just a little too much, but I still ended up with just over 5.25 gallons. The wort tastes amazing, but I am a little concerned with the high gravity and how it will work with my yeast. I did use the ringwood strain, but I am not sure if my starter was large enough for the extra 20 points on the gravity.
 
This might be a dumb question, but should I strain anything off between the boil and the fermenter or do all the spices go into the fermenter?
 
This might be a dumb question, but should I strain anything off between the boil and the fermenter or do all the spices go into the fermenter?

I think most recipes call for spices to be added to the last few minutes (flameout) of the boil. It would be very difficult to strain out fully-combined spices....let it go into the fermenter.
 
waldzinator said:
I think most recipes call for spices to be added to the last few minutes (flameout) of the boil. It would be very difficult to strain out fully-combined spices....let it go into the fermenter.

If you're kegging, I'd highly recommend making a tincture with the spices and adding them to cold, carbonated beer. This gives you the most control possible. Start off with less than you think you'll need, then add and taste. Repeat until you have the desired spice level reached. It's super easy to over spice and its easier to add more than to let it age and mellow.

You could probably even do this in a secondary if you don't keg. This way you can determine how the spice plays off of the fermented beer.
 
I also followed stblindtiger's recipe. Changed a few things and used 1.5oz Watkin's vanilla extract in the keg as well as 1/4tsp ground clove in vodka (skipped it curing . I have to say the clove was way too much and completely overpowered the beer. I ordered some silver cloud estate pumpkin pie extract in an attempt to salvage the 5 gallons.
 
I also followed stblindtiger's recipe. Changed a few things and used 1.5oz Watkin's vanilla extract in the keg as well as 1/4tsp ground clove in vodka (skipped it curing . I have to say the clove was way too much and completely overpowered the beer. I ordered some silver cloud estate pumpkin pie extract in an attempt to salvage the 5 gallons.

Glad to know...I haven't put the clove in yet and was going to soak in with the vanilla/vodka mix..so maybe I will put in 1 clove to keep it light.
 
After years of making Pumkin ales i strongly urge you to not add the spices the last 5, fermentation is really going to alter their purpose. (they'll taste slighlty different and be less potent).

Add the spices to the secondary, keg, or botteling bucket. My best pumpkins have been done this way
 
Unfortunately clove goes a long way... Sometimes you find out after its too late, for me too much clove makes my tongue numb... I use less than 1/8 tsp for my batches...
 
After years of making Pumkin ales i strongly urge you to not add the spices the last 5, fermentation is really going to alter their purpose. (they'll taste slighlty different and be less potent).

Add the spices to the secondary, keg, or botteling bucket. My best pumpkins have been done this way

I'm kinda at the other end of the spectrum, although I will admit that I was unaware ST didn't boil their spices. I prefer a bit more subdued flavor, at least from some of the stronger spices (cloves, for instance). I suppose a case can be made for boiling some, and creating a spice tea with the others for secondary. In true spirit of "cloning" Pumking, it probably makes sense to not boil them.
 
Wish I would have realized this beforehand :(

You'll probly end up with a good beer, but it won't be as close to pumking as you'd like. Been there.

Here's the deal, I've done alot of pumkins and I wish someoe would spared me the expiramentation before my first batch.

Boiling the spice is not ideal, you don't know how the final product will tast. Don't do it.

Adding the spice at ANY time before the yeast is done working, is not ideal. The fermentation process can and will alter the strength of your spice addition. Don't do it.

Instead, brew a normal brown/amber ale, pitch and let it ferment out. I suggest using some Maltodextrine that will give you the creamy body/mouthfeel ST Pumking provides. 2oz's per 5 gallons has been my addition. Add your spice tea (all of your spice's added to water, about 2 cups (that was previously boiled and has since cooled)) to your racking/botteling bucket or keg and ever so gently stir in. taste it. If you want more, add more, etc. Do not stir hard and oxygenate the beer.

This way, you have total control over just how "pumkin pie'y" you want your brew. Throwing it in last 5 or at flameout is just gambling and hoping it turns out - after flubbed batches I don't gamble anymore.
:mug:
 
This way, you have total control over just how "pumkin pie'y" you want your brew. Throwing it in last 5 or at flameout is just gambling and hoping it turns out - after flubbed batches I don't gamble anymore.
:mug:

+1

I try to tell everyone this. I make tinctures for every spice I use separate. I draw several samples in measured amounts and experiment with the doses. Once I find whats right, I scale it up. Take notes, so you know how much to use the next go. There is a lot less experimenting/wasting that way.

I'm about to brew an orange cream stout. Ill make a solid proven batch of milk stout then at kegging ill add my flavors. I have an orange extract and vanilla bean extract working its magic in the closet now. I also have all the pumpkin spices and a black pepper one going too. It only cost $12 for some vodka.

Plus, doing flavors this way makes you feel like a mad scientist. I need a lab coat for christmas.
 
My pumking clone is fermenting away...damn lid on the bucket keeps bulging even though there is an airlock with blowoff tube attached... I have released CO2 at least 2 times a day the last 3 days! (I'm trying to prevent a "caboom!" But so trying to keep everything sanitary.
 
Here's the deal, I've done alot of pumkins and I wish someoe would spared me the expiramentation before my first batch.

Boiling the spice is not ideal, you don't know how the final product will tast. Don't do it.

Adding the spice at ANY time before the yeast is done working, is not ideal. The fermentation process can and will alter the strength of your spice addition. Don't do it.

Instead, brew a normal brown/amber ale, pitch and let it ferment out. I suggest using some Maltodextrine that will give you the creamy body/mouthfeel ST Pumking provides. 2oz's per 5 gallons has been my addition. Add your spice tea (all of your spice's added to water, about 2 cups (that was previously boiled and has since cooled)) to your racking/botteling bucket or keg and ever so gently stir in. taste it. If you want more, add more, etc. Do not stir hard and oxygenate the beer.

This way, you have total control over just how "pumkin pie'y" you want your brew. Throwing it in last 5 or at flameout is just gambling and hoping it turns out - after flubbed batches I don't gamble anymore.
:mug:

AAAAAHHHHHHH I just did this on Saturday and hadn't checked this forum in a few days, wish I had! I added spices at flameout. I was planning however to check taste when putting into secondary and possibly adding some spices then, and maybe again at bottling.

Here's my recipe;

Recipe: PumJoker TYPE: All Grain
Style: Spice, Herb, or Vegetable Beer

---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------

SRM: 12.9 SRM SRM RANGE: 5.0-50.0 SRM
IBU: 35.0 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 0.0-70.0 IBUs
OG: 1.088 SG OG RANGE: 1.030-1.110 SG
FG: 1.023 SG FG RANGE: 1.005-1.025 SG
BU:GU: 0.396 Calories: 275.9 kcal/12oz Est ABV: 8.7 %
EE%: 72.00 % Batch: 5.00 gal Boil: 5.70 gal BT: 60 Mins

---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------

Total Grain Weight: 17 lbs 15.6 oz Total Hops: 1.00 oz oz.

---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 5.6 %
14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 77.9 %
1 lbs Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.6 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.2 %
1.00 Items Pumpkin (Mash 0.0 mins) Other 5 -
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 22.09 qt of water at 167.5 F 152.0 F 60 min

---SPARGE PROCESS---

Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun, rinse with 2.85gal gently stir, let sit for 10 min, then drain) of 168.0 F water

---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------

Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.079 SG Est OG: 1.090 SG
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.75 oz Magnum [13.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 29.9 IBUs
0.25 oz Sterling [6.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 4.5 IBUs
1 lbs Organic Coconut Sugar [Boil for 10 min] Sugar 6 5.6 %
4 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) [Boil for 10 min] (0 Sugar 9 1.3 %
2.00 Items Cinnamon Stick (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 10 -
0.50 tsp Pumpkin Pie Spice (flameout) Spice 11 -
0.25 tsp Allspice (flameout) Spice 12 -
0.25 tsp Cardamom (flameout) Spice 13 -
0.25 tsp Nutmeg (flameout) Spice 14 -

---NOTES------------------------------------
EPIC FAIL!!!! Forgot to add graham crackers to the recipe and thus forgot to add them to the mash!!!

This was my first all-grain and I would say it went pretty well, other than not adding the graham crackers (which i forgot to add to my recipe) and the fact that my efficiency was down at 65%. I need to mark my pots so I know how much water is in them perhaps get a sight tube for the boil kettle. Unfortunately my boil kettle only holds 5 gallons so that made the strike amount of 5.215 gallons unattainable. Also, my mash temp was a little unstable, fluctuating between 150 and 162ish. I don't really know what was causing this, I was stirring roughly every 10 min so the temp should equalize pretty quickly. I'm thinking of getting a more accurate thermometer, one that has a smaller gradient so it's easier to tell what the actual temperature is.
 
mallob9 said:
AAAAAHHHHHHH I just did this on Saturday and hadn't checked this forum in a few days, wish I had! I added spices at flameout. I was planning however to check taste when putting into secondary and possibly adding some spices then, and maybe again at bottling.
This is an area where you won't find complete agreement. I would much rather add additional spices to the end of the boil to make up for flavor fading with fermentation etc. in the past ive made a spice tea at bottling and added a little then tasted until I had it where I wanted it only to have the spices become very bitter in the bottle. I just had a bottle of last years pumpkin ale and the harsh bitterness has finally faded. Again this is personal preference I'm sure many will disagree but I will never again add spices at bottling. I do have high hopes for this pumpkin pie extract I'm adding at bottling in 3 weeks as it smells amazing.
 
Imho this beer is cloned, pumpkin pie extract is their secret. Tasted it side by side. Good job bulldogbrewer!
 
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