first partial mash

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unionrdr

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Well,I'm off on that PM cascade pale ale kit I got from midwest about a month ago. Had to crush the grains in an old,small food processor (2.5-3C size) at 3 pulses of about 3 seconds each. What bugs me is their instructions said o quart water per pound of grain. Ok. But then it says 1 gallon total. From what I've read here,I made it about 5.25 gallons,since there's a total of 5 lbs of grain.
156F temp to start on the mash water,add grains,& it's supposed to go down to 151-153F. No more than 155F in bold print. I'm heating the mash water now with a floating thermometer hung on the side with 3-4 twist ties made into a hangman's noose. Works well. Ihope my amount of water works ok. I used distilled water with no chemicals added. I thought it'd be ok this time?...
 
5.25 gallons is going to be a very, very thin mash. Typical mash quantities would be about 1.25 quarts per pound, so about 6.25 quarts or just over 1.5 gallons for 5 pounds of grain. You'd then normally sparge with something like twice the amount of mash water, if you follow the usual rules, or whatever you feel like (in my particular case, I usually just sparge with whatever I need to reach my boil size).

I think you may have trouble if you use such a thin mash, so if you haven't already added the grain, you may want to dump some of that water.
 
OOps,typo,my bad. I dumped in 1.5 gallons of the distilled water. Too many numbers bouncin around my head trying to remember what I've been reading on here. So 1.5G should be right on the money?
What I questioned of their instructions was 5 lbs of grain,check. 1 quart of water per pound? Ok,but not the amounts folks use on here. They said to use 4G. Made it 1.5 gallons for 5lbs of grain. I think the sparge amount was 1.5G vs the 4qt they said to mash with. I may go for 1G sparge. How's that sound?
 
Yep 1.5 gallons is right on the money. I personally would go with the 1.5 gallon sparge. I am assuming your going to add some extract since it is a partial mash.
 
Yeah,they gave me this lil ol' 3lb milk jug lookin thing with breisse gold LME. I was going to follow my usual proceedure insomuch as using only half the LME in the boil,maybe 1/3. All three hop additions are cascade,1oz each. It's supposed to be as good as or better than SNPA. It just struck me as odd that they 1st say to use 1qt water per pound,then say use 1G of water with the 5lbs of grain. I can't believe they missed that in the space of 2 sentences. Gotta go check my temps again...
* Mash water temp shot up to 170F while on here. Turned temp on stove from 5 down to 2. Down to 150,added grains,went down to 146F. Turnwed heat up to 3.5,will check in a few minutes to see if I get the 151-154F needed. 1 hour mash.
 
Glad to hear the 5.5 gallons was a typo!

I've been doing PM for a while now. I like to have a 3.5 gallon boil, so I calculate things out for that. Remember that you'll lose a lot of the water to the grain, I got about 3.3 gallons out of 4 gallons mash+sparge last weekend. In my case, I had 7.5 lbs of grain, so that was about 2.5 gallons mash / 1.5 sparge for about 1.33 qt/lb. No doubt more sparge would have done some good, but I'm doing BIAB and this is the best I can manage. Got so-so efficiency (still working out what it was...)

For these, I boil using only the mashed wort, and then I do all my extract with 15-20 minutes left. Adding extract is annoying, so I like to do it only once!
 
I'm havin trouble maintaining the 155F mash temp. Wants to shoot up to 160,so I turned it down & I had 156F last I checked a few minutes ago. Iwas going to ad 1/3 to 1/2 the 3lbs of gold LME when it boils after hot break. Now idk..maybe all late addition? They say to add it all at boil,but I don't do that with LME.
 
The biggest issue here is not the high mash temp or the off mash ratio... it's that you used 100% distilled water with no chemicals added for a beer with a decent amount of mashing grains in it. I would be wary of low mineral content aside from what's already in the portion of extract. The body and flavor might come out very flat/lifeless.
 
Congrats for takin' the dive, man! Honestly, if all you're looking at is that one 3.3# jug of LME, I'd add it at knockout. No need to muss and fuss with 1/2 and 1/2. Should be a good beer, that's a good kit!
 
So would spring water have been better for this? I did indeed just say f'it & jumped in. nuthin left to it but to do it,Says I. Hopefully,the 3lbs of gold LME will add something of mineral content back to it. The instructions don't really talk about that aspect of it.
It's supposed to be as good or better than SNPA,which I really like. All very high marks from comments on the kit on midwest's site. So I thought this was the best PM kit to judge the outcome by. It seems I need a 2nd floating thermometer as well,one for ther mash tun & one for the HLT. (fancy words for my BK (5G) & a 2nd stock pot (3G) for heating 1.5G of sparge water). Better go check temp again.
 
Spring water doesn't have that much mineral content either. More than distilled for sure, but not much at all.

You will have beer. It all depends on how high your standards are. I doubt it will be better than SNPA. You will notice differences in body and flavor for sure. Water quality and mineral content is a very important (and often overlooked) factor when designing a partial mash or all grain recipe.
 
Dang sparge water wasn't hot enough when mash was done. Grains in the collander on top of the BK with a lid over the collander. Not much help I guess,but better than nothing. I had such high hopes for this beer too. Now I gotta study this additive stuff to boot. Oh well...so much for this.
 
Nah, don't sweat it man. My first few mashes were frustrating, missed strike temps, sparge temps, murdered mash temps. The beer turned out well. You won't replicate SNPA, from what I understand water chemistry is very crucial to replicating any beer. But, the recipe is for a solid pale ale, which it will be. Couple of batches, and you'll have the process down. I noticed going from extract to PM that it was like starting over, same when I started brewing all grain. The processes are different enough that the first time will give you some struggles. Hang in there, you're making beer.
 
Yeah,it's like being a beginner again fer sher. Question is,how good of a beer? I was doing pretty darn good with extracts. The wort does smell darn good though. Like bready caramely goodness I got from using cooper's OS cans with Munton's DME's. So idk...this might just be good anyway. I do love pale ales the most,& have used a few different hops in them. This one uses all cascade for bittering,flavor,& aroma additions. Can't wait to get the sparge done & start the boil. Dang,I got the DT's like a noob again. Can't wait also till it's in the fermenter. Then it's beer me time!...
 
No sense worrying about anything now, just learn some lessons for the next one.

Couple things I've learned over 4 or 5 PM batches:

- Stir the mash REALLY well before taking a temperature reading, and measure it in several places. It does not equilibrate as fast as you might expect, so it can be a 5 degree swing from the middle to the top.

- Adjust temperatures SLOWLY. If you need to bump up 4 degrees, better to make two 2 degree steps than to try to do it in one and then overshoot (I personally add hot water rather than direct firing, because I don't want to melt my nylon bag for BIAB)

- Keep good records of the temperatures you hit and refer to them next time. If you came out 10 degrees low on your sparge, remember to adjust your strike temperature up for next time. (This one is killing me, but I have had pretty good results with 158° batch sparges)

- Middle of the road mash temps (152-154) are key during this phase in learning. That way if you miss high or low, your error just means you get a drier or sweeter beer than you expected. If you're trying to mash at the very high or low end of the enzyme active range, missing might mean a more serious problem.
 
I am keeping notes on burner settings vs temps measured. Good way to put my new electric burners to the test. Boy.are these cheaper burners (than GE) great. Heat up faster & more evenly. But are harder to maintain temp than the old ones. Got to a boil in 15-18 minutes from mash temp of 155F on "9". Gentle rolling boil on "8". Did bittering addition a couple minutes ago. I decided per nordeast to save the LME for flameout,as usual with my extract batches.
I figured since I wound up with about 2.6 gallons of wort after the 1.5 gallon sparge @ 155F,that I'd get good hop utiilzation this way. Besides lighter color & no mailard reactions from re-boiling the LME. Good to learn that the new burners will boil 2.5 gallons plus of wort in my 5G BK. It surprised me that the 3" of hot break onl lasted about 15 seconds! Wow,never had one come & go that quick.
 
invest in a digital thermometer - they will be much quicker to show your temp when you are trying to dough in and nail your temps plus will be more accurate at measuring different spots in the mash since the temps aren't always uniform

a good trick to help maintain your mash temp once it's reached is to either wrap your pot in a sleeping bag or place in a preheated oven (usually the warm setting is sufficient) it's a PITA to try to maintain mash temp using a burner, esp with a floating thermometer. it's easier to add ice or boiling water as needed to lower/raise the mash temp but even a few degrees fluctuation won't have too much impact
 
I am keeping notes on burner settings vs temps measured. Good way to put my new electric burners to the test. Boy.are these cheaper burners (than GE) great. Heat up faster & more evenly. But are harder to maintain temp than the old ones. Got to a boil in 15-18 minutes from mash temp of 155F on "9". Gentle rolling boil on "8". Did bittering addition a couple minutes ago. I decided per nordeast to save the LME for flameout,as usual with my extract batches.
I figured since I wound up with about 2.6 gallons of wort after the 1.5 gallon sparge @ 155F,that I'd get good hop utiilzation this way. Besides lighter color & no mailard reactions from re-boiling the LME. Good to learn that the new burners will boil 2.5 gallons plus of wort in my 5G BK. It surprised me that the 3" of hot break onl lasted about 15 seconds! Wow,never had one come & go that quick.

Oh yeah, you'll start seeing breaks like never before man. Thick, quick and violent. Just wait til you see the "brain" in the kettle after chilling!! :rockin:
As far as "how good", well..... I know you were pretty adept at turning those Cooper's kits into good beer. And in a pretty creative way. Considering that, once you've got the process down, you'll be blowing your own mind with your homebrew! You have so much more control, and choice of ingredients. Not to mention, even the freshest extract isn't fresh compared to the wort you make at home with fresh grain.
I think you'll end up quite impressed with the beers you're making.
 
When I was doing partial mash, I found that once I hit my temp I would pull the pot off the burning and wrap it in a heavy blanket with a lid on. If I started at 155 then at the end of an hour the temp would be about 152.
 
Yeah,the old GE burners maintained steeping/mash temps better,but didn't heat up as quickly or evenly as these new ones do. But the new ones don't maintain temps as easily. I had the floating thermometer lashed to the side of the kettle with 3-4 twist ties formed into a noose lashed to the kettle handle. I would like one of those digital thermometers though. Use it for the mash tun & the floater for the HLT.
It'll be less strewssful once I learn these new burners to maintain temps more easily. Got the flavor addition coming up in some 10 minutes. I can smell the wort all the way in my man cave in front of the house.
Boy,I can't wait till beer time. This is tuff when you have bad hips & a L2 disc goin south. But the aroma is def worth it. I think I must be doin at least pretty good,as the wort does have that familiar pale ale wort kinda smell I'm used to. But I have to say,it smells...well...cleaner than the recombinent extract versions I've been doing.
 
I like to have both types of thermos in the mash. I keep a floater in the tun, and have and instant digi probe to double check and to take readings in random spots. Really though, once you get the process down, you'll have a method to dial in temps and won't have to check all that often.
And yeah man, I love the way cascades smell in the boil. One of my favorite hops for sure!
 
Yeah,the combo of fresh wort & cascades smell so darn good. Just wow. I can still smell it in the ol'man cave now. I put the aroma addition in at 2 minutes per instructions. The flavor one at 15. Might change that next time,but we'll see.
Yeah,I did spend a lot of time,money,& experimenting to make good beers with cooper's beyond the kits. Hey,sounds like a cool book title "Beyond the Kits". Hmmm...maybe this year sometime I'll start writing again,used to love that.
And thans for the encouragement guys. This was terra incognita again. I guess 007 was right when he said "never say never...again". I alsdo broke presedent & poured a tall boy. Needed one after a few hours of this. It's been steeping with the aroma addition off the heat & covered for 15 minutes,per my usual process. Just can't walk away from all that knowledge up this point. Added all the gold LME at flame out as well. What a purty color & smell.
 
Well,the ice bath is finally going down below 90F. Left all three hop sacks in the BK after a 15 minute coverd steep,since the aroma addition was only 2 minutes,per instructions. It's finally down below 90F in the ice bath now. I'm callin it at 75-80F. I've got 3G of cold distilled water in the fridge since yesterday afternoon. God,I hope this come out well.
By the by,I got the wort down to 75F as per usual. Into the FV & aerated. Creaming yeast now (US-05) for 20 minutes in 1.5C of warm water. Strilizing hydrometer atm. Wort color atm looks like I'll get my usual amber orange color. Smells good with the cascades.
 
Well,the FV temp is back up to 72F as of this morning. US-05 was re-hydrated,but no action yet. I was able to burp it once,so it's workin anyway. Color loks good so far,smell of bready,caramel wort with that great cascade aroma as well.
 
Well,dang. I Hope the water I re-hydrated the yeast in wasn't too hot. It was a bit warm,but not steamy at all. My quick check thermometer went south,so I guessed late at night. Stirred & pitched at 8:43pm. Still nothing...it's usually blowin off like mad by now. It was fermentis US-05.
 
It's def a bit warmer atm. Never had the safeale 05 take this long. Gee,I hope I didn't make my first yeast mistake. I put a lot of time into all the crushing,mashing,etc yesterday. It all smelled so good,I was kinda proud I got it pretty good. I gave it a few swirls just in case.
By the by,those new burners from amazon heated from mash temp to boil on "9" in 15-18 minutes. Cut the heat to "8" when it boiled. got a nice,even boil without more than .5G boil off in one hour. I did manage to hold 155F for the majority of the hour.
I started to wonder if I got conversion after the sealed grains were in the fridge for a month...
 
Nah, you got conversion man. Next time, after the mash, taste the wort, if it's sweet, it's good. You can do the iodine test too if you want to double check.

IME with us-05, it usually kicks off quickly, but I've had it take 12-18 hours before, 24+ hours once, which worried me, but it ended up being a beast and I got ~81% AA on that batch.

I feel your pain though, the first PM batch I did was like starting all over again. Same when I went AG. I sweated every little thing until I was drinking the beer. You'll be all good man.
 
I certainly hope so. Talk about terras incognita. I feel like a bloody noob again. But it did smell caramely bready sweet,just didn't taste it. Cleaner smell,& the hops smelled more like the way they'll end up when conditioned. Extract pale ales I made didn't have that same quality of smell as the fresh made wort does. Interesting observation,that.
 
Well,it's day two & no visible fermentation at all. Might just go to JW Dover & get a new packet of US-05 to pitch. Don't want the wort going moldy or other. Damn,never had this problem before.
 
Just took a look through the airlock grommet hole. Also took SG sample. OG was 1.044,now 1.034. But by taking a peek,I see some foamy,large yeast rafts...maybe mixed with some cold break by the look of it.
Seems like it knocked off 10 points before going belly up. The wort still smells sweet though,so it's likely OK. JW Dover opens at 10am,so I'm gunna get another packet of US-05 to get it going again before it goes bad. My thoughts anyway...?...
It's still cloudy/silty as well. Taste is unusually good & clean,but just a bit sweet. All cascade made for some nice bittering with the flavor already. At least that's cool. Just need to jump start it to keep it that way.
 
Not totally sure I understand everything you have described, but it sounds a lot like you pitched your yeast and two days later the gravity dropped about 1/3 of the way from start to finish. (Starting at 1.044, I expect you to drop to 1.005-1.010.)

What makes you think there is an issue? Sorry if I am misunderstanding the concern.
 
Well,my quick check thermometer went south,so I had no way to tell temp of rw-hydration water. Too cool or too hot & dry yeast cells die off. It was just below very warm to almost hot when I pitched the yeast in that 1.5C of water. 22 minutes later,I pitched it. Forgot to check temp strip on FV. Was 72F by morning. That was yesterday.Today,still no action,& the yeast was floating on the top with some foam.
So by the time I got back from JW Dover with the yeast & had lunch,the floaters had sank & about 1/2" of foam was present. I pitched the dry yeast packet anyway,stiring it in with a sanitized paddle & re-sealed. What yeast was left alive wasn't doing much,never a bubble. Pitching yeast cream,the blow off should've been goin nuts. It always did before.
 
walk away from the fermenter and let it do it's thing :)

yeast don't always behave the same way, you have active fermentation going on - you only risk contaminating it, oxidizing etc if you keep opening it up or add more yeast
 
This was a new event for me. Never had these problems up to this point. I'm sure the extra yeast will be fine,as the cell count on the 1st pitch was pretty low. It just seemed from experience that it might take a little too long to get going normally again. Didn't wanna take the chance it would turn south. I only openned it once to re-pitch. I'm not one for openning & worrying. But this one just acted like it was bad from the start.
But yeah,it's on it's own now...
 
I agree with Terrapin and Freisste, it sounds like it's fermenting just fine. It's just not going b@lls out or anything. It's a third of the way done in ~a day or so, that sounds like it's right on schedule for a 5 day fermentation, which is what seems the norm with 05.
 
When we used 05 before,it was starting the bloop bloop by 7am. Machine gunning by lunch time. Nada here,so I thought this must be my turn for something out of the usual to go wrong. I'm pretty sure it was about done,stalled,etc,since the top was clearing up & most of the yeast was clumped up & floating. It didn't look like it was going to continue,so I pitched again. I don't think it'll hurt anything,since that 1.044OG should winf up between 1.008-1.010. But the aroma & flavor are def hell & gone better than extract alone. And the cascade bittering does seem to add to the same as flavor & aroma additions. Man,what a difference.
 
You may or may not be ok, but I'd go ahead and repitch. It's unlikely to hurt anything as long as you're careful.

In the future, if you can't be sure of the rehydration temp, maybe just dry-pitch instead?
 
Now, you know that bloop bloop (or lack thereof) is meaningless. From the sounds of it, the clumping, dropping and foam rising, that everythings going as normal. Yeast will congregate in small colonies on top as they reproduce, the colonies will then drop into the wort and go at it, causing the krausen to form.
I think man, that since the PM was a new process for you, you're way overthinking this now, during fermentation. I know that you're usually very much an RDW guy, and it seems that you're really stressing this one. I totally understand, I'm exactly the same way, but do yourself a favor and relax. At least until primary is over. I hate to see ya so worried over what seems like, if anything, a mildly delayed start to fermentation buddy. RDW and HAHB (or a Stroh's and a shot of vodka). :mug:
 

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