Some Newbie Fundamentals Questions

Hi,

I've been reading up on homebrewing for the last couple of weeks, today is the day to head to the LHBS to pick up my beginners kit! Despite reading a lot of this forum, and How to Brew, I'm still a little confused about the fundamentals I guess. If anyone would be so kind as to answer that'd be great.

1) Is 'primary fermentation' simply from the brew day until the SG readings are stable?

2) Is 'secondary fermentation' just the period after that where the yeast is still active and as I've read here on the forum "cleaning up after itself"? What exactly does that mean?

3) My kit comes with a primary fermenter (plastic bucket) and a secondary fermenter (glass carboy). From what I've read on the forum my understanding now is that you don't need a secondary fermenter per say, but it's used to limit the exposure to oxidation? Is that right, and is that the only reason? For a first brew should I use it or not?

4) Is the primary fermenter usually the plastic bucket only because it's got a bigger volume to handle the primary fermentation? You could just as feasibly use a glass carboy for this stage?

5) Finally, when it comes to bottling, (which can be any time after the SG readings are stable, but should not really be before 2-3 weeks since brewday) you need to siphon again into a third vessel to mix your priming sugars with your beer before bottling? What do people use for this?

Ok one more question or two, about equipment.

My kit comes with an airlock, but no kind of blow-off tube. It seems like getting a blow-off tube would be a good precaution right at the start?

I also need to pick up a big pot to brew in today. Should I get a one large enough to do full boils in in future (7-8g volume?), or just get a smaller one for now?

From reading here, I guess the larger ones need a really strong heat source to get them to boil (I only have an electric stove so I'm skeptical) and also do they need an immersion cooler to cool them? The plan at the start was simply an ice bath. If they need an immersion cooler I'm sticking to a smaller pot for now. What's people's advice on this?

Thanks for any insight - apologies if these are really dumb questions.

David

Oooh, sorry one more.

I live in an apartment, so it's going to be fermenting either in a closet or in the corner of a room. Whats the beer smell going to be like? If it's in a closet will everything in there end up smelling of fermenting beer?

1) Primary Fermentation is what occurs after you pitch the yeast. This is done in the initial vessel. Update: Generally, the primary fermentation is up until the specific gravity has leveled off for two or three days.
2) Secondary Ferementation is the act of siphoning the beer from the primary vessel into a second vessel. There are a lot of contradicting opinion on the matter if you need to do this, but majority will probably tell you that it is not necessary unless you are dry hopping or adding fruit. This is also useful if you want to free up the primary fermentor for another batch of beer.
3) Glass carboys like the one you have has less head space in them; so the beer will have less chance of becoming oxidized since there is less oxygen in the vessel.
4) Yes. The pail has more room so when kraussen is developed during the initial stages of fermentation there is room for it to grow and it won't escape through the airlock. You can use glass carboys to do your primary fermentation; however, it is recommend that you use a blow off tube since there is a good chance the kraussen will rise out of the carboy.
5) The "third bucket" is your bottling bucket. The reason to have a separate vessel to do this in is to limit the amount of yeast that will get into the bottles; not to mention, it is always good to have an established bottling bucket so if you have multiple batches going you do not run into the problem of having your bottling bucket unusable since you are fermenting in it.

Hey David,

I'd recommend picking up a book or two on brewing to answer your questions, plus many, many more brewing ideas. Here's a link to a good starting point though: John Palmer's How to Brew. As far a fermentation by-products, it can range anywhere from roses to bad farts depending on yeast primarily. Cheers!!!

Bear85 said:

Hi,

I've been reading up on homebrewing for the last couple of weeks, today is the day to head to the LHBS to pick up my beginners kit! Despite reading a lot of this forum, and How to Brew, I'm still a little confused about the fundamentals I guess. If anyone would be so kind as to answer that'd be great.

1) Is 'primary fermentation' simply from the brew day until the SG readings are stable?

2) Is 'secondary fermentation' just the period after that where the yeast is still active and as I've read here on the forum "cleaning up after itself"? What exactly does that mean?

3) My kit comes with a primary fermenter (plastic bucket) and a secondary fermenter (glass carboy). From what I've read on the forum my understanding now is that you don't need a secondary fermenter per say, but it's used to limit the exposure to oxidation? Is that right, and is that the only reason? For a first brew should I use it or not?

4) Is the primary fermenter usually the plastic bucket only because it's got a bigger volume to handle the primary fermentation? You could just as feasibly use a glass carboy for this stage?

5) Finally, when it comes to bottling, (which can be any time after the SG readings are stable, but should not really be before 2-3 weeks since brewday) you need to siphon again into a third vessel to mix your priming sugars with your beer before bottling? What do people use for this?

Ok one more question or two, about equipment.

My kit comes with an airlock, but no kind of blow-off tube. It seems like getting a blow-off tube would be a good precaution right at the start?

I also need to pick up a big pot to brew in today. Should I get a one large enough to do full boils in in future (7-8g volume?), or just get a smaller one for now?

From reading here, I guess the larger ones need a really strong heat source to get them to boil (I only have an electric stove so I'm skeptical) and also do they need an immersion cooler to cool them? The plan at the start was simply an ice bath. If they need an immersion cooler I'm sticking to a smaller pot for now. What's people's advice on this?

Thanks for any insight - apologies if these are really dumb questions.

David

Click to expand...

1. Basically, there is no set time for primary, but most ferment 3-4 weeks.

2. Yes, although secondary is not really necessary unless adding fruit or dry hopping. The yeast will clean up fermentation byproducts, for instance? Diacetyl. This will happen regardless if you rack to a secondary fermentor or leave it in the primary. Again, most just leave it in primary.

3. The glass Carboy is your fermenter, the bucket is for bottling. You don't need to worry about oxidation in primary because he headspace in the Carboy will be filled with co2 during fermentation, displacing the oxygen. Risk of oxidation rises slightly by racking to secondary.

4. Carboy is your fermenter, bucket is for bottling.

5. For bottling, mix priming sugar with boiled water, then dump in bucket. Siphon beer from Carboy to bucket? Taking care not to splash, and making sure priming sugar is adequately mixed. Use the bottling want and valve on the bucket to fill bottles, then cap. Store for 3 weeks at 70 degrees, then drink away.

6. Blow off tube is good to have, and they're cheap.

7. Buy a bigger pot, but be aware, you will probably not be able to do full volume boils on the stove. My electric stove can barely boil 3 gallons, and it takes over an hour to get there. A propane burner or heat stick will fix that.

8. Chillers are nice to have, but not necessary. Plenty of people just use ice baths.

Blow off tube: If you plan on using your carboys for primary fermentation then I recommend picking up a blow off tube since carboys generally have less head space. However, if you are going to be using the Ale Pails, you should be fine with just the standard airlock.

Pot: I'm the type of person that would rather buy the larger equipment now so I don't need to buy it later. That being said, this is kind of a personal preference scenario and how much you want to grow your brewing experience. If you think you are going to be doing extract boils (usually 2.5 gallon boils) for the next year, then I recommend just going with a smaller pot and investing in something bigger in a year; heck, you might have something good enough at your house. However, if you are looking to go into all-grain brewing as soon as you can, then I would recommend looking into a turkey fryer kit that will come with the burner, stand, and 7.5+ gallon pot.

Is there a spigot in your bucket?

To be a little more accurate, secondary fermentation, as used in the most of these answers is a misnomer. Secondary fermentation occurs after the initial primary fermentation, and can happen in the original fermentation vessel.

A "Secondary Fermentor" is really a clearing tank/carboy/bucket that is used to age the beer so the primary vessel can be cleaned and reused.

Secondary fermentation has nothing to do with where the beer is located. It has to do with the internal dynamics of the beer.

I would go with a 5 gallon pot unless you plan on getting a burner and brewing outdoors soon (which isn't practical in an apartment). My electric has enough trouble boiling 4 gallons, and the pot uses almost all the available vertical space above the burner that I have.

Get a blowoff tube to be safe. They're very cheap and good to have on-hand as security.

Thanks for all the answers - this is by far the most friendly and helpful place on the internet I've ever seen!

Just picked up the kit, the bucket doesn't have a spigot, so I guess that just makes the bottling have to be done with a siphon instead.

We got a 5 gallon pot so only partial boils for now, based on the advice I don't think there is any way my stove would boil a full boil sized pot.

The LHBS was out of stock of gaskets for the primary fermenter (the seal between the lid and the bucket), he said it wouldn't stop him using it, it'd just mean the air lock wouldn't bubble. Can I trust that advice and use it without risk of infection?

I think we'll use the secondary fermenter, I guess we need to use the primary bucket for bottling too.

Thanks again for all the advice, very much appreciated.

EDIT - He also forgot to give us the thermometer we'd asked for. Is it ok to try brewing without one?

Your brew will spend some time in the fermenter so you don't have to rush but why not stop back at the LHBS and pick up a bottling bucket with a spigot and while you are there, blow a few more dollars for another plastic fermenting bucket. I'm pretty sure you will find a use for it in the next few weeks. i don't drink much but I have had 3 fermenters going at once to experiment with different recipes while I had some spare time.

I don't know if your kit came with an auto-siphon or not, (some do, some don't)but if it didn't getting one will make life a lot easier. Good luck new brewer!:rockin:

Bear,

You really need a thermometer to help you to determine when to pitch the yeast. You wouldn't want to simply estimate this.

Jason

I've been using a meat thermometer (like you can get at any grocery store) for a while now and it's working out fine. It's pretty steamy to reach so far into pots of hot water and it's pretty slow at getting a reading but it's better than nothing. I wouldn't want to brew without something for measuring steeping temp/mash temp and most importantly, pitching temp.

JasonScott said:

Bear,

You really need a thermometer to help you to determine when to pitch the yeast. You wouldn't want to simply estimate this.

Jason

Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Otherwise it'd be complete guess work. I'll delay brewing until I can get my hands on one.

cms said:

I've been using a meat thermometer (like you can get at any grocery store) for a while now and it's working out fine. It's pretty steamy to reach so far into pots of hot water and it's pretty slow at getting a reading but it's better than nothing. I wouldn't want to brew without something for measuring steeping temp/mash temp and most importantly, pitching temp.

Click to expand...

That's a good idea, unfortunately I don't have one already. It'll be another visit to the LHBS looks like

If you do some of the ales I have done -- you get a sweet fruity smell. One did have sulfur (fart smell) for a short duration.

Bear85 said:

Oooh, sorry one more.

I live in an apartment, so it's going to be fermenting either in a closet or in the corner of a room. Whats the beer smell going to be like? If it's in a closet will everything in there end up smelling of fermenting beer?

Click to expand...

Just to note. I read "How to Brew" as my guide to brewing. I was getting ready to rack to secondary, but people on this list told me it really isn't necessary just let it sit for three weeks. In the five batches I have done I haven't racked to secondary and it is all fine and dandy. The secondary "ferementation" just occurs in the primary ferment.

In your case you have a plastic pail, so I am not sure whether that would be fine. I had a large glass carboy (6.5 gallons -- and I still need the blow off). Plastic may be leakier and not retain the C02 -- and from what I have read here it is somewhat porous to oxygen so leaving it in the pail for 3 weeks might not be the greatest.

My suggestion, maybe it is too late, is to get a larger glass carboy and forgo the secondary racking. I had the 5 gallon for secondary and never used it. I sold it.

I am somewhat sloppy in my techique, but it did not seem to matter.
To rehydrate liquid yeast I would boil water and the container and then put it in the fridge to cool it and pulled out to sense whether it is near room temperature to the touch. I never bothered with the thermometer.

The only care I took with the thermometer was to measure the wort as it was being heated so I would know when it might start boiling over and I measured the wort as I was chilling it to guarantee that I got the temp down to room temperature quickly.

I built my own immersion wort chiller -- I am still amazed about how well it worked.

Good luck with your venture. The most important skill you'll need is patience.

The pot size isn't what effects how long it takes to get your water to a boil. The amount of water is the main contributor to this. You can do a 2.5 gallon partial boil in a 10 gallon pot on an apartment's electric stove. It's really tough to say what would be the best pot for you to start with other than get the biggest one you can make use of. It would be great to start with a 15.5 gallon keggle but that would be very difficult to use on a stove.

If you can work with something as big as a 7+ gallon pot on your stove, I say go for it. In the future, you could install an electric element that you could run from an A/C outlet, drier outlet, or even your stove's outlet. That would let you do a full boil indoors with that pot. This would be a decent size pot for a HLT, MLT, clam bake, or crab boil. So even if you outgrow it as a boil kettle, it will still have a useful life.

I've got a 5 gallon stainless stock pot that doesn't do me much good anymore. It's a little big for my needs as a stock pot and it's about to be retired as my boil kettle.

Ok update! Figured after all the replies you might want to hear how it went.

It is now almost midnight and we just got everything into the primary fermenter (to be fair we only started around 7pm!). We had an un-hopped extract kit plus some hops.

We manage to get a meat thermometer last minute as suggested, it seemed to work absolutely fine for the purpose. Not sure how to use it to keep an eye of the primary fermanter temperature over the next few days, any suggestions?

We mostly followed the How to Brew (John Palmer) website, and mostly disregarding the kit instructions, and most of the LHBS "ignore the kit instructions and do this" instructions.

Everything went mostly well, the hot break was less than spectacular, there was foam for a bit, then less, then none. Was that it?

After we had boiled the wort for an hour, everything went a bit sloppy. I had saved up lots of ice in the freezer for an ice bath to cool the wort, but even after several ice baths, it was still around 35 Celcius.

We had followed the How to Brew instructions and initially boiled 3 gallons of water and left it to cool in the primary fermenter before boiled 3 more gallons to make the wort, but when we came to mix the 3 gallon wort into this, the water in the primary ferment was still around 40 C, hotter than the wort now was.

We ended up ditching half of the boiled water in the primary fermenter, adding the wort, and then topping up with tap water. We had no more ice to cool with, and it would have taken hours to get it cold enough to pitch the yeast. Is using tap water (right from the tap) ok? The LHBS instructions just said to do this anyway, so we figured it was, if not ideal.

Measured the SG and it was 1.040

Everything else went as expected, but we certainly learnt a few things for next time. More ice and better cooling somehow!

As I said up top, if there are any tips on how to keep an eye on the primary fermenter's temperature over the next few days that'd be much appreciated. We're in an apartment, it's sitting in the corner of the bedroom, so I'm assuming that should be more or less ok?

Thanks again for all the suggestions, even if this one ends up going down the drain it's been so much fun and I think we're pretty firmly hooked.

David

Get some icecream salt or kosher salt to add to your ice bath. The rapid melting of the ice causes a greater thermal exchange. The first time I did this I had to slap my forehead and say, "Why didn't you think of this before?"

Nothing's going to completely come together until your first brew day. Get a kit you like and follow the directions and everything will start to click as you go through the paces.