Off flavor in the bottle and consistent carbonation issues

Williams 728
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banesong

banesong

Middle Ground Brewing Company
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Well, I now have three brews finished, with the fourth in the bucket almost ready to bottle and the fifth to brew this weekend (caveat - the first four were kits, the one to come is not). My question and concern comes from a couple of consistent issues.

1. Low carbonation: On all three of the beers, there has been a lack of satisfactory carbonation. It comes out with a little bit of bubbles, but left on it's own for more than five minutes and it is completely, irrevocably flat. I have left the bottles at a temperature between 68-71 for 3 weeks with little difference; the last batch of bottles I left for a full month with no noticeable difference in carb.

2. Off flavor: The beers, when drank fairly quickly after bottling (~2-3 weeks) taste okay. However, if left for longer than 3 weeks, the beer develops a distinctly metallic/flat flavor. I am trying with the most recent batch to leave the beers undisturbed for a full week in the fridge to make sure that the taste doesn't subside, but am worried due to the fact I have to bottle within the next few days.

So.... Are the two problems related? Is the flavor oxidation and my bottle caps are leaking? I am fairly sanitary in my procedures (or as sanitary as a new brewer can be). My bottling procedure is pretty easy - it takes my 10yo and me less than an hour to get a batch down.

What is the cause??? :confused:

Thanks in advanced.

T
 
How much Priming sugar are you using? Also how are you sanatizing the bottles? Ive also heard that brew kettles which are aluminum can give off flavors, so if you are using an aluminum kettle that could explain the metalic taste
 
Ack, meant to put this information in the initial post:

I use about 1 ounce corn sugar to 1 gallon (~ 3/4 cup by volume).

I brew in stainless that is only used for wort/beer.

I sanitize my bottles by running them through the dishwasher by themselves on the sanitizing cycle (score - didn't brew when I bought the dishwasher!). The boy takes the bottles directly out of the dishwasher and fills them, then hands them to me to bottle.

All the equipment I use is sanitized by Iodophor; I just recently picked up some star-san to see if that makes a difference.
 
If you have flat beer at week 2 and beyond there is a problem. Should not be hard to figure out if you have had 3 batches w/same problem.

To see if you are getting your caps on tight lay a few on their side. At this point I'd put a handful in the fridge to chill overnight. Then take them out and let them get warm, on their side. As they heat up, it should create enough pressure due to expansion to force out a few drops of beer out if your caps are leaking.

To carbonate you need 4 things:

1)Viable yeast. You are always going to have enough yeast in solution to carbonate unless it's been a carboy for a year. Or unless you have somehow killed the yeast with heat or chemicals.

2) Sugar. If it was one batch I'd suspect you might have forgotten the sugar (we've all done that at least once). Three batches probably rules this out.

3) Correct environment, i.e. temps and no disinfectant in your bottles. This kind of ties back into #1. I know you run through the dishwasher, but if you have a super strong chemical solution on the inside glass, it's probably going to still be left after the dishwasher, which will not get much rinsing done inside the bottle.

4) Airtight bottle / cap. Not trying to recap twist off bottles I assume?

70ish degrees is a perfect temp.

You're not going to get off flavors from an aluminum kettle. However the longer it stays flat, the more that tastes normally hidden by the bite of carbonation become apparent.

If you want to get fancy do this: Take 6 bottles of flat beer. Open them and put a few grains of dry yeast in 2, put some sugar in 2, and put some yeast + sugar in two. Recap, wait a week or two and sample. Somethings going to carbonate, unless your caps are leaking.

And also, if you decide to try this, granulated sugar of any type will cause big fizzy events almost immediately, even if the beer seems flat. Get some priming drops, or toss in a piece of clear hard candy, which is basically what priming drops are.
 
Is the metalic flavor actual metalic (like putting a penny in your mouth) or is it something different? Troubleshooting off flavors and their causes is helped a lot by as complete a description of the flavor as possible.

If it's actually metalic, what are you using for brewing water? Tap? Bottled? It's possible your tap water could contain some residual iron or other metalics that is being accentuated in the brew. Try switching to bottled water (if you're not already) and see if that helps. The other common cause of a metalic off is poorly stored grain. Are your kits extract, partial mash, or all grain? Where did you get them? It's possible that the kits in question, depending on the supplier, could have been in inventory too long or contain grain that was mishandled (ie: someone left it in a warehouse that got wet/hot). Oxidation can also throw a metalic like off sometimes, so make sure that the 10 year old isn't splashing as he's bottling (although if the flavor is showing up in 2-3 weeks that's a much less likely culpret).

As to the carbonation issue, are all bottles flat? Or are some ok and some not? Are you thoroughly mixing your priming sugar into the bottling bucket? Are you getting the caps on straight and crimping tight? Also, this seems pretty basic, but to go with the question above about not using screw off bottles, you're not trying to reuse caps, right?

Also, are you using the dishwasher for your actual dishes? I would assume that you are. In that case, it's possible the flavor you're noticing and the issues with the carbonation are both tied to the presence of residual soaps from your dishwasher detergent.
 
SKMO said:
If you have flat beer at week 2 and beyond there is a problem. Should not be hard to figure out if you have had 3 batches w/same problem.

To see if you are getting your caps on tight lay a few on their side. At this point I'd put a handful in the fridge to chill overnight. Then take them out and let them get warm, on their side. As they heat up, it should create enough pressure due to expansion to force out a few drops of beer out if your caps are leaking.

To carbonate you need 4 things:

1)Viable yeast. You are always going to have enough yeast in solution to carbonate unless it's been a carboy for a year. Or unless you have somehow killed the yeast with heat or chemicals.

2) Sugar. If it was one batch I'd suspect you might have forgotten the sugar (we've all done that at least once). Three batches probably rules this out.

3) Correct environment, i.e. temps and no disinfectant in your bottles. This kind of ties back into #1. I know you run through the dishwasher, but if you have a super strong chemical solution on the inside glass, it's probably going to still be left after the dishwasher, which will not get much rinsing done inside the bottle.

4) Airtight bottle / cap. Not trying to recap twist off bottles I assume?

70ish degrees is a perfect temp.

You're not going to get off flavors from an aluminum kettle. However the longer it stays flat, the more that tastes normally hidden by the bite of carbonation become apparent.

If you want to get fancy do this: Take 6 bottles of flat beer. Open them and put a few grains of dry yeast in 2, put some sugar in 2, and put some yeast + sugar in two. Recap, wait a week or two and sample. Somethings going to carbonate, unless your caps are leaking.

And also, if you decide to try this, granulated sugar of any type will cause big fizzy events almost immediately, even if the beer seems flat. Get some priming drops, or toss in a piece of clear hard candy, which is basically what priming drops are.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the delay, work is batcrap insane right now.

To qualify, it is not completely flat. However, it is very lightly carbonated, and will go flat after 5+ minutes out in the open. And this is at four weeks. I will try the lay it on the side trick and see what happens.

1 & 2) to my knowledge, I haven't killed the yeast and I have added the sugar. I also integrated the sugar in the bottling bucket well - in the first batch and second, I stirred gently; the third I had the sugar in the bucket first and racked the beer onto it.

3) I conditioned the bottles +- 70 degrees. There is not any chemicals (to my knowledge) in the dishwasher. With this next batch, I will skip the dishwasher on part of the batch to see if there is any difference in the final product.

4) not a twist off, not reusing caps

Depending on the result of the lay flat side test, I will try and recarb a few of the bottles to see what happens.
 
KellyK said:
Is the metalic flavor actual metalic (like putting a penny in your mouth) or is it something different? Troubleshooting off flavors and their causes is helped a lot by as complete a description of the flavor as possible.

If it's actually metalic, what are you using for brewing water? Tap? Bottled? It's possible your tap water could contain some residual iron or other metalics that is being accentuated in the brew. Try switching to bottled water (if you're not already) and see if that helps. The other common cause of a metalic off is poorly stored grain. Are your kits extract, partial mash, or all grain? Where did you get them? It's possible that the kits in question, depending on the supplier, could have been in inventory too long or contain grain that was mishandled (ie: someone left it in a warehouse that got wet/hot). Oxidation can also throw a metalic like off sometimes, so make sure that the 10 year old isn't splashing as he's bottling (although if the flavor is showing up in 2-3 weeks that's a much less likely culpret).

As to the carbonation issue, are all bottles flat? Or are some ok and some not? Are you thoroughly mixing your priming sugar into the bottling bucket? Are you getting the caps on straight and crimping tight? Also, this seems pretty basic, but to go with the question above about not using screw off bottles, you're not trying to reuse caps, right?

Also, are you using the dishwasher for your actual dishes? I would assume that you are. In that case, it's possible the flavor you're noticing and the issues with the carbonation are both tied to the presence of residual soaps from your dishwasher detergent.
Click to expand...

I have had to give a break to the beer, as work has been insane. I plan to crack a couple this weekend, will let you know more tasting notes. I brew currently with well filtered water from my tap - I will look to see if I can swing one of the next batches with bottled. My brews so far have been kits - I am going to do my first recipe this weekend. The batches came from the Homebrewery (www.homebrewery.com). The kit currently in primary (and will bottle monday) came from AHS. Don't know about that one yet. My son hasn't splashed; I will double check when we bottle next.

My bottles are not completely uniform (slight variations), but for the most part, they are not carbed enough. Again, they are not completely flat, but the get flat incredibly quickly (~5 min). I am crimping them tightly, but am going to test with SKMO's lay on the side test. I am not reusing caps or twist off bottles.

As I said to SKMO, I will try and skip the dishwasher for part of the next round. I picked up some star-san (been using Iodophor) to see if that makes a difference.
 
Good chance it’s your dishwasher. A dishwasher as a pre cleaner is fine but not as a final rinse or sanitizer. Your dishwasher will leave residue behind even if you don’t use soap or a spot free rinse agent during that wash. I would skip the dishwasher completely and use a bottle brush with some mild dish soap to wash then rinse well then soak in a sanitizer. I wouldn’t change anything else but skipping the dishwasher for now. If you still have issues then look at the water and such but I think you issue is the DW.

Good luck and I hope you get it corrected. :mug:
 

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