IPA's not within BJCP style guidelines

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red131

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I live on the west coast and so our IPA's are ridiculously hopped. I have heard the discussion on other forums of wanting to create a new BJCP category called West Coast IPA because it generally doesn't fall within the IPA style guidelines specified by BJCP.

In the past, I have judged quite a few of these "West Coast" type IPA's entered under category 14B. And honestly they were some of the best beers I have ever tasted taking best of show many times in competitions.

Now the reason I bring it up is because most these IPA's were so over hopped, that they technically did not fall within the style for a traditional American IPA specified by BJCP.

So in all honesty, these beers should have been docked points for being entered in the wrong category right?

What are your thoughts?
 
That the guidelines need to be more loose or just have more selections/styles which need to be updated in my opinon as well. Im pretty shure my English(style) Ipa either got disqualified or majorly docked. I didnt want to enter it as a specialty beer. Even commercial craft beers are not in those guidelines for the style listed-alot.So I dont get it. Whatever though. Beers today are not traditonally styled per style ,but in genneral they are that style but just varied within those styles. Or should I say they are still those styles but outside of those stlye guidelines.
 
The only time I stick to BJCP guidelines is if I'm brewing for competition. Those are also the only beers that I bother entering.
 
As a side note, I've never really liked delimiting East/West Coast anything. I understand the generalization, but using terms like that really does reveal a persons limited exposure to beers on a national level (in regards to the U.S.) especially when there are brewers in the central, northern, and southern United States who are doing the same thing. Regional pride is important, and I respect that, but even Mitch Steele said that the English were making IPAs of similar strength to what we have today. On the main topic, how high are the IBU's in these beers anyway? 14C is 120 IBUs! RateBeer states Pliny is 100, and I've read that it has tested much lower.
 
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you talking about IPAs over 70 IBU? There is a category for that: Imperial IPA.

My 2 cents is I am sick of the west coast attitude. You guys annoyed me with the whole "Cascadian dark ale" thing (a "style" invented in Vermont) and personally I think IPAs over 70 IBU taste like garbage. The whole extreme everything is so 1996 Mountain Dew ad.

If we want to talk about changing guidelines, I think a better concern is putting English IPA in the English pale ale category, because I have yet to see an English IPA win the IPA category. It's really a totally different beer than American IPA and won't stand out against them.
 
nukebrewer said:
+1 Being a "hop head" is like being someone who likes really hot food. After a certain point you're not doing it because you like it, you're doing it so you can say you did it.

You obviously don't get it. Drinking 100+ IBU beers has nothing to do with saying you did it, its about enjoying the way it taste. Not everyone likes hop bombs, and that's fine, but just because you don't like something doesn't mean everyone else doesn't too.

Regarding the comment about English IPAs being in another category, I agree and think its an excellent idea.
 
You obviously don't get it. Drinking 100+ IBU beers has nothing to do with saying you did it, its about enjoying the way it taste. Not everyone likes hop bombs, and that's fine, but just because you don't like something doesn't mean everyone else doesn't too.

It's about the more, more, more attitude everyone takes in regard to hoppiness. There is a threshold past which the human tongue can't perceive additional hop bitterness or flavor. But the average consumer doesn't know this and that's how brewers get away with selling a beer that has a supposed 2500 freaking IBUs.
 
The desire to have greater and greater IBU beers with a 2-row and crystal malt base does strike me as a competition to see who can eat the hottest pepper.
 
I've never really liked delimiting East/West Coast anything. I understand the generalization, but using terms like that really does reveal a persons limited exposure to beers on a national level (in regards to the U.S.)

I'm pretty sure it isn't a regional pride thing. The term comes from the idea that the style was created on the west coast. It could be just as easily called CalIPA or San Diego Style. It's just a moniker that tells a consumer what they are getting. If you buy something called a West Coast IPA you pretty much know what that is, just like getting an English IPA. Or a Belgian IPA. I've had em from all over the country and all over Britain and the rule pretty much holds true.
 
To help clear things up, these contestants are entering 5% to 7% ABV beers with 100+ IBU in the American IPA (14B) rather than the Imperial or specialty category simply because they don't quite add up to the imperial status. Because they tasted so good, judges were looking the other way.

In my original post, I had said 14C which caused confusion down the rest of the thread. I meant 12B (I have corrected this in the original thread)
 
It boils down to Guide Lines or General Rules that a group of people made up to define categories of beer. There is a constant change going on in beer and what the guide lines are now will have to be adjusted or BJCP should have a category for Traditional styles and then the "Ish" catagories. IPA is the perfect example White, Black, Imperial, Brown, or original. Rules for food and beer where ment to be tweaked and made better for your taste. Come on it is BEER!!!!!!!! Relax and Have one or five and enjoy it. But if it is a compatition there should be adjustments made for new changes in the beer world cause to judge new styles according to old standards is like wareing your great grandparents clothes they won't fit.
 
It's tough because IBUs between the two styles overlap, and in both cases judges generally prefer a LOT of hop flavor and aroma, and the big differences between them, ABV, is not always easily distinguished.

The judge has to be aware of the risk of running too high in the ABV area, and if it's a dry and crisp IIPA it may be hard to tell. Usually an IIPA is thicker feeling and hotter. Other than that, they are very similar. And truth be told, I suspect a lot of judges in this category aren't necessarily going to ding an IPA for being too big.

IMO the hoppiness of all American craft beer has crept upward the past several years. What used to be pretty bitter and hoppy is "meh" to a lot of people nowadays.
 
Regarding the comment about English IPAs being in another category, I agree and think its an excellent idea.

The problem I see with that is then English IPA's are very likely to win the category more often than not. In my experience, judges have a predisposition to anything that's bigger.
 
And that was one of my arguments with another club member. My IPA's are within style, but would lose in a competition because it's not massively hopped.

I feel that it isn't fair that I brew a perfect IPA that is within style, yet the IPA with the most hops (and that is out of style) takes the trophy. And to go further, I was seeing judges score beers poorly saying that an IPA should have been entered in as a pale ale. The overly hopped beers (that were out of style) were setting the bar way to high so every ale under it was being incorrectly judged.

Anyways, i'm done ranting. Thanks for listening all!
 
And that was one of my arguments with another club member. My IPA's are within style, but would lose in a competition because it's not massively hopped.

I feel that it isn't fair that I brew a perfect IPA that is within style, yet the IPA with the most hops (and that is out of style) takes the trophy. And to go further, I was seeing judges score beers poorly saying that an IPA should have been entered in as a pale ale. The overly hopped beers (that were out of style) were setting the bar way to high so every ale under it was being incorrectly judged.

Anyways, i'm done ranting. Thanks for listening all!

But the IBU:GU ratios on 100+ IBU IPAs are way off I think. Here's a standard IPA recipe that I brew all the time:

12 lbs two row
0.75 lbs c-20
OG: 1.065
IBU: 65

That recipe is styled after Ranger, my favorite IPA. It's a showcase for hops; the malt only provides a backbone. To me, that's a bitter beer. If I took it to 100 IBU, it would taste bad. I think it would score lower if I did.

You are going to get judges who score beers according to their ideas of what they like in a beer. One time I entered my dubbel in a comp and it scored a 31. The comments made it clear that these judges preferred a sweeter American-style dubbel. I like a drier, more restrained dubbel. Next comp I entered it in, it scored a 45 and got a gold. Don't sweat it. Just keep entering and you will find some people who like your beer. Honestly, I would think most people would prefer an IPA brewed to style over an imbalanced one.
 
I just got a 33 on my English IPA in the OrganicHomberewsCompettion.ONe of the judges didnt "prefer" and like my hop choice .Really I was debating on entering in in American IPA. Didnt get docked as bad as I thought. No flaws also. I just thought it was more of a American version of an English IPA, and it didnt taste all that American in my opinon,mainly due to yeast choice. More of a hybrid,if I stuck to the basics I probably would have got an even higher score. It tasted good and I knew it,thats what matters. How many of these current successful breweries really stick to guidelines,anyways?
 
I think you have to remember that judges don't know a beer's IBU's or ABV. Those numbers are guidelines but it really is all about perception. You could have a 100 IBU (at least on paper) IPA but it tastes like a 70 IBU IPA. The same could be said for ABV. It boils down to a brewers technique, skill, and ingredients in some cases to "fool" the judges when really a beer is technically out of style. However the judges perception is that it is brewed "to style".
 
I just got a 33 on my English IPA in the OrganicHomberewsCompettion.ONe of the judges didnt "prefer" and like my hop choice .Really I was debating on entering in in American IPA. Didnt get docked as bad as I thought. No flaws also. I just thought it was more of a American version of an English IPA, and it didnt taste all that American in my opinon,mainly due to yeast choice. More of a hybrid,if I stuck to the basics I probably would have got an even higher score. It tasted good and I knew it,thats what matters. How many of these current successful breweries really stick to guidelines,anyways?

What are you complaining about? You entered an English IPA into a BJCP competition using American hops. You shouldn't have expectations of doing very well if you're not going to stick to the style. A 33 isn't a poor score by any means. It may taste great, but if it's not to the BJCP style, than it's not going to score well.

A lot of people complain about BJCP competitions because of the adherence to the style specifics. Those specifics are there to force brewers to submit beers that fall within general specific guidelines so that the competition is focused more on each brewer's techniques and skills rather than on the specific recipe they used.
 
+1 Being a "hop head" is like being someone who likes really hot food. After a certain point you're not doing it because you like it, you're doing it so you can say you did it.

My experiences do not align with this mindset.

I hated bitter, hoppy beers when I started my craft beer journey. Now I love them. My taste just became more appreciative of them over time. They are now the majority of what I brew and buy. And I don't do it to show off. I do it because I enjoy it.

We all know from Pliny the Elder that if you use nearly a pound of hops wisely, you won't end up with a severely bitter/harsh/abrasive beer. Instead, you'll end up with the #1 rated IIPA consecutive years straight as per beeradvocate.
 
I think you have to remember that judges don't know a beer's IBU's or ABV. Those numbers are guidelines but it really is all about perception. You could have a 100 IBU (at least on paper) IPA but it tastes like a 70 IBU IPA. The same could be said for ABV. It boils down to a brewers technique, skill, and ingredients in some cases to "fool" the judges when really a beer is technically out of style. However the judges perception is that it is brewed "to style".

How would you do this? I made a really hoppy American amber a month ago and what I learned is that crystal malt doesn't really create sweetness per se, lowering the IBUs does. You can't just use a bunch of crystal or vienna/munich. Not only that, but dumping in those malts is going to make the beer too syrupy.

I suppose you could use a less attenuative yeast. But the human tongue can for sure taste the difference between a 70 IBU and a 100 IBU beer. 5-10 IBUs, sure, but 30 is going to be pretty apparent.

If I were a judge I would ding a 100 IBU American IPA for lack of balance. While I don't doubt that some people genuinely enjoy imbalanced bitter beers, they aren't in the majority.
 
bobbrews said:
My experiences do not align with this mindset.

I hated bitter, hoppy beers when I started my craft beer journey. Now I love them. My taste just became more appreciative of them over time. They are now the majority of what I brew and buy. And I don't do it to show off. I do it because I enjoy it.

We all know from Pliny the Elder that if you use nearly a pound of hops wisely, you won't end up with a severely bitter/harsh/abrasive beer. Instead, you'll end up with the #1 rated IIPA consecutive years straight as per beeradvocate.

I'm not saying that people who like hoppy beers only do it to show off. I love hoppy beers, too, but as I said in my other post, it's the gimme more attitude that a lot of people have toward hops. Eventually even Pliny isn't enough and you find yourself drinking a 2500 IBU beer when you probably only perceive about 100-120 of them.
 
I haven't met anyone like that, I'm sorry. Maybe the new craft beer drinker / cocky newb who is arrogantly insecure (I think that BIG alcohol content is more appropriate for those types). More often, I think there are just a lot of haters, complainers, and labeler snobs out there.

Drink what you enjoy!
 
What are you complaining about? You entered an English IPA into a BJCP competition using American hops. You shouldn't have expectations of doing very well if you're not going to stick to the style. A 33 isn't a poor score by any means. It may taste great, but if it's not to the BJCP style, than it's not going to score well.

A lot of people complain about BJCP competitions because of the adherence to the style specifics. Those specifics are there to force brewers to submit beers that fall within general specific guidelines so that the competition is focused more on each brewer's techniques and skills rather than on the specific recipe they used.

Maybe you misinterpreted me. I wasnt complaining at all. I do wonder however, if I would have got an even better score had I entered it in the american ipa category,though.And I am more than happy and pleased with the score-which is the satisfaction of entering it. Next time I will stick to the category with more accuracy,but just hopefully it turns out as good tasteing enough to enter. I really just did it to get some more professional feedback. And yes I did predict what would be said about what I already knew where I was pushing the style lines. So at least that gives me some confirmation of what I do know about beer.

I didnt use American hops either,by the way.I was just told to tone down the hops for the style hence what I would think would have made it American IPa,rather. I didnt orgionally brew it for the competion,either. It was a last minute decision to enter it, and not to mention it was also a 5-6 mo.conditoned beer.
 
I think Phundog summed it up pretty well. Think Pliny, on paper it's like 285 IBU or some insane number like that, tested it's near 100 (?). It's hoppy as $hit, like biting a hop, but is it bitter? Not overly so. More like a mild bitterness that comes from loads and loads of flavoring hops. I almost always over shoot IBU on my IPA according to the BJCP, but I get the majority of those IBU from flavor addition, not the bittering shot. In fact, I've even done a few with no "bittering" addition, all flavor/aroma but with alot of IBU from those adds. The perception is not of a bitter beer, but of lots of hops flavor and aroma. On paper, those beers aren't "to style", but to the drinker, they are. BJCP judges are drinkers.
 
Ultimately, I think the BJCP guidelines are a good thing, but it isn't a measure of a good beer, per se.

Consider the competition more like a dog show; just because someone has entered a pure bred, doesn't mean that its a "better" dog than the mutt down the street.

The only problem that I see with the ultra high IBUs in an IPA category is that the judges taste buds will get worn out by too much hop. Other flavors in a more complex beer will be diminished.
 
How would you do this? I made a really hoppy American amber a month ago and what I learned is that crystal malt doesn't really create sweetness per se, lowering the IBUs does. You can't just use a bunch of crystal or vienna/munich. Not only that, but dumping in those malts is going to make the beer too syrupy.

I suppose you could use a less attenuative yeast. But the human tongue can for sure taste the difference between a 70 IBU and a 100 IBU beer. 5-10 IBUs, sure, but 30 is going to be pretty apparent.

If I were a judge I would ding a 100 IBU American IPA for lack of balance. While I don't doubt that some people genuinely enjoy imbalanced bitter beers, they aren't in the majority.

An example would be I like to First Wort Hop all of my IPA's. On paper it increases the bitterness but to my palate, and others, it tastes less bitter because the bitterness is smoother. I know some people even calculate the FWH IBU addition as a 20 minute addition. Someone else was talking about Pliny or other well made Imperial IPA's.....on paper the IBU's are through the roof. I have had traditional IPA's that tastes much more bitter than Pliny though they are only 70 IBU's. A big part of that is ingredients...specifically what hops are you using and when they are used.
 
I think Phundog summed it up pretty well. Think Pliny, on paper it's like 285 IBU or some insane number like that, tested it's near 100 (?). It's hoppy as $hit, like biting a hop, but is it bitter? Not overly so. More like a mild bitterness that comes from loads and loads of flavoring hops. I almost always over shoot IBU on my IPA according to the BJCP, but I get the majority of those IBU from flavor addition, not the bittering shot. In fact, I've even done a few with no "bittering" addition, all flavor/aroma but with alot of IBU from those adds. The perception is not of a bitter beer, but of lots of hops flavor and aroma. On paper, those beers aren't "to style", but to the drinker, they are. BJCP judges are drinkers.

Pliny is a double IPA, though. Also, it's considerably more bitter than an IPA.

A Pliny clone entered in 14 B isn't to style. I don't think it's a question of theory vs. practice, you can tell the difference between a 70 and 100 IBU beer.

If judges are scoring double IPAs entered in 14 B higher than well-brewed IPAs that are actually to style, that's not good. There's a category for them; Imperial IPA.
 
Pliny is a double IPA, though. Also, it's considerably more bitter than an IPA.

You're right. I still say it doesn't come across as a terribly bitter beer, but a DIPA it is.

If judges are scoring double IPAs entered in 14 B higher than well-brewed IPAs that are actually to style, that's not good. There's a category for them; Imperial IPA.

I agree, but the lines are blurred. A single beer can be "to style" in both categories.


I think this all is just one of the many reasons that I love IPA/IIPA/IIIPA/DIPA so much. Not only is it tasty, but it spawns discussions like this, or entire books for that matter. I'm drinking a St. Peter's IPA (English IPA), very solid beer, and to style. ;) The English struggle with keeping this style "to Style" as much as we do, more so, but for very different reasons :mug:
 
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