Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

oregonbrew541 said:

I really recommend using malic acid to add tartness I think you should give it a try just on one batch please! Malic acid is actually derived from Apples. It is apples natural tart flavor and even adds a more distinct apple flavor.. I also prefer not using and sulfites/preservitives in any of my brews

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I've had citric acid, malic acid, and the acd blend all recommended to me in the past. The blend seems to be the most common and works in all situations. I use malic acid because one of my friends is allergic to citric acid. It works well in all sorts of beers, meads, and ciders. Malic acid is not specific to apples though. It's in almost all non-citrus fruits.

This is my first time experimenting with making cider. I took a reading on the 18th after it stopped bubbling and got .991. Today I got the same reading. Time to bottle and add sugar for carbonation?


I was wondering how long it can sit in the fermenter before it goes bad?

CvilleKevin said:

Red Star - Cotes de Blanc – I just tried this with pasteurized, unsweetened juice. It left a real bland, buttery taste.

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Kevin, this is from the original post and not seeing much else about it afterwards. I just used it on a mead and is doing fairly well; nice clean slow ferment so far. I'm curious to see what the final gravity winds up. It says it will not ferment dry but leaves residual sugar, I'm just not certain how much. I like the idea of not having to worry about tracking or cold crashing if it retains enough sugar...........Wondering if at any point you have gone back and tried this yeast again?

Wondering if at any point you have gone back and tried this yeast [Cotes de Blanc] again?

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Hey Mark - Yes, I used it on a gallon batch from the November 23rd pressing. Also did a gallon each using Premier Curvee, D47 and 71B I let them all ferment out and they all are very dry. Of the four, I liked the Premier Curvee the most at bottling time. It also had very little foam and smelled great during fermentation. The Cotes de Blanc was OK, like a dry white wine and the tannins were a little sharper than the Premier Curvee. With a higher starting gravity or lower nutrient juice, you might get some residual sweetness, but I sure didnt get any. For a dry cider, its not bad and should be a lot better once the tannins lose their edge a bit.

This juice from the Nov 23rd pressing turned out to have a fairly high nutrient level. Most of the apples were from an old orchard that is being restored and it turned out that the trees got a lot of fertilizer last year - so everything fermented out really fast. Even though it was in the low 50s, all the keg batches went from 1.058 to 1.010 in about 9 days, which is half the usual time for this season. I didnt have time to crash them for another few days and by then most of them were nearly dry. 0.002 or 0.004. Of these, the Brupaks at 1.002 tasted the best for a dry cider. Finished that keg a few weeks ago. The next dry one to put on tap will probably be the S04, the rest are all a bit too tannic. In retrospect it probably would have been better to have 10-15 percent Arkansas Black instead of 25 percent in the mix.

Latest pressing was on Dec 22. Stayman, Pink Lady, Gold Rush and Winesap. Than juice also had a higher nutrient level than normal and fermented faster than usual also - about 2 weeks. This time I was better prepared and crashed them all around 1.010. These are all clearing now. The Gold Rush apples were more tart than I expected, so its probably a good thing I didnt let these get too dry.

I've done a few batches with WLP005 this season that have come out well. I had really good luck with it before in test batches, but the first keg batch I did was taken over by wild yeast and fermented out before I could crash it. This season I sulfited the WLP005 batches first, and that seems to help a lot. I'm drinking one now from the Cortland Gala Jonathon pressing. I used half a dose of sulfite before the pitch. I month later, it was just barely noticeable, and when I kegged it in November, I wasnt getting any sulfite. I just put it on tap a couple weeks ago and it tastes great. It reminds me a lot of the Brupaks batch from the same pressing.

Can I do mead at lower 50's?

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Woozl - I've never made mead, so dont have any recommendation on the yeast, but I'm sure there are plenty that would work for a mead at low 50s, depending on how high a gravity you have to start

I was wondering how long it can sit in the fermenter before it goes bad?

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If your sanitation is good, not a lot of head space, no exposure to acetobacter, the cider can usually stay in the primary for many months, and over year if you rack it off the trub.

Hey Kev. Nice to see another brewer on here in the Central VA area. Picked up a couple 1 gal. glass cider jugs (with cider in them) from Fresh Market today. I really wanted the jugs for splitting batches of beer, but I couldn't bear to buy an empty jug for about the same price. So now I have this nice Roanoke Va unfiltered, pasteurized apple juice and of course I want turn it in alcohol.

I've been trying to sift through the info here. I want to bottle carbonate my batch. I read that for a 5 gallon batch fermenting 4 and adding the remaining 1 gallon as backsweetener was a good ratio. Or backsweeten to 5-8 gravity points above FG then bottle. There's also a lot of people online that give the impression that there's no real great way to calculate and once its bottle carbed you have to pasteurize the bottles or they're gonna blow. Seeing that we have all kinds of calculators for beer carbonation, I was just wondering if you had a calculation or hydrometer method that would get it carbed without blowing up any bottles. Is it as simple as a 1 to 5 ratio?

I'm planning on doing a 1 Gal. batch BTW. Sorry I didn't state that right out.

SamLynchburg said:

Hey Kev. Nice to see another brewer on here in the Central VA area. Picked up a couple 1 gal. glass cider jugs (with cider in them) from Fresh Market today. I really wanted the jugs for splitting batches of beer, but I couldn't bear to buy an empty jug for about the same price. So now I have this nice Roanoke Va unfiltered, pasteurized apple juice and of course I want turn it in alcohol.

I've been trying to sift through the info here. I want to bottle carbonate my batch. I read that for a 5 gallon batch fermenting 4 and adding the remaining 1 gallon as backsweetener was a good ratio. Or backsweeten to 5-8 gravity points above FG then bottle. There's also a lot of people online that give the impression that there's no real great way to calculate and once its bottle carbed you have to pasteurize the bottles or they're gonna blow. Seeing that we have all kinds of calculators for beer carbonation, I was just wondering if you had a calculation or hydrometer method that would get it carbed without blowing up any bottles. Is it as simple as a 1 to 5 ratio?

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I would use one of the beer calculator that allow for different sugar inputs such as DME and honey. I'm sure there is a real equation out there that will tell you how much to add as well. You would theoretically be able to calculate how much to add based on the attenuation percentage of the fermented part of the batch, but that's more complicated than I want to make it for myself. Good luck

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I was just wondering if you had a calculation or hydrometer method that would get it carbed without blowing up any bottles. Is it as simple as a 1 to 5 ratio?

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Well, if you want a dry cider, you can just ferment it dry and then add the same amount of priming sugar that you do for beer.

If you want a sweet bottle conditioned cider, it gets more complicated, because all apple sugars are fermentable. You can ferment dry, add a non fermentable sugar and priming sugar, but that doesnt taste very good IMO. You can use nutrient reduction so that the yeast shuts down before consuming all the sugar, but that takes a lot of practice and consistent low nutrient juice. Or you can do what most folks do, which is to bottle with some residual sugar and pasturize after you have the desired level of carb, following the instructions in the sticky.

Or, if you have the ability to force carbonate, you can use cold crashing (which also takes a bit of practice) and/or sterile filtration to get rid of the yeast before all of the residual apple sugar is gone and then force carbonate.

Or you can ferment it dry, prime and bottle it, and when it's carbed, sprinkle in a little Truvia and gently stir. Sounds stupid, but it works. I've done 5 batches of cider...still a noob...but 4 are carbonated and every one is different. I pasteurized one batch...and one bottle broke. The easiest, by far, was the Champagne yeast, fermented out and primed/bottled. But it is dry. I have used a soda bottle with a screw cap as a test bottle to see when the carbonation is right. Of course a glass bottle and plastic bottle aren't going to carb exactly the same, but it's close enough. You also have to guess a little after you've opened the screw cap a couple of times, you've lost some carb and it just won't be close anymore...so you just have to drink it!

CvilleKevin said:

Hey Mark - Yes, I used it on a gallon batch from the November 23rd pressing. The Cotes de Blanc was OK, like a dry white wine and the tannins were a little sharper than the Premier Curvee. With a higher starting gravity or lower nutrient juice, you might get some residual sweetness, but I sure didnt get any. For a dry cider, its not bad and should be a lot better once the tannins lose their edge a bit.

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Kevin, appreciate the feedback and the updates on the juice runs. Working hard to make sure workload can support me getting some good juice in the next run. Suffering through store bought juice for now. I also meant to ask if you had ever tried Young's Cider yeast. I ordered some last time I got Brupaks and it is now working on 3 gallons(2 gallons cider and frozen concentrate to boost the OG to 1.078) Will let you know how it turns out. Only info I can find on it: "This Bayanus strain of yeast has been specially selected for its ability to produce exceptional crisp and refreshing ciders." EC-1118 is the only other Bayanus strain I could get info on.

FYI I just ordered some more Brupaks with the new owners. Process seemed okay so far, will let you know when it gets here.

I also meant to ask if you had ever tried Young's Cider yeast.

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Yes, a few years ago I tried a bunch of yeasts from the UK, including Young's Cider yeast, which makes a good dry cider. I was unable to stop the fermentation but it fermented out clean and was nice for a dry cider. Young's also makes an Ale Yeast, which I liked better for cider. More residual sweetness. Ritchies Real Ale Yeast was another good UK one.

Kevin you mentioned a couple different methods you used with a couple different yeasts that allowed you to "stop" the fermentation (cold crashing and racking). I'm using S-04. So does that mean that I could backsweeten to bottle carb and just stick all the bottles in the fridge when they are carbed to the desired level and stop the ferm? I was planning on using a soda bottle to monitor carb level. I'm only doing a 1gal. batch right now so it would be easy to fit 8 or 9 12 oz bottles in the fridge.

SamLynchburg said:

Kevin you mentioned a couple different methods you used with a couple different yeasts that allowed you to "stop" the fermentation (cold crashing and racking). I'm using S-04. So does that mean that I could backsweeten to bottle carb and just stick all the bottles in the fridge when they are carbed to the desired level and stop the ferm? I was planning on using a soda bottle to monitor carb level. I'm only doing a 1gal. batch right now so it would be easy to fit 8 or 9 12 oz bottles in the fridge.

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Careful, that s04 is a strong yeast. If you pull them out of the fridge, they can start up again. But essentially, yes. If you keep them at fridge temps, it will stop fermentation.

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Yea I'd keep em in the fridge and just take em out to drink em.

According to my lhbs this just came out january I'll be trying it in three weeks on my next five gallon batch I'll start a new thread using applekush recipe when i do but for now has anyone used this?

On Feb 12th, we did the last pressing of the season. The juice was a third each of Stayman, Albemarle Pippen and Winesap. This was probably my favorite juice of the season. It has a nice apple aroma that hits you before the first sip and a great mouthfeel and flavor. It tastes sweeter than it was (1.054) and the finish is not as tart as the last two batches, but should be plenty tart enough to get the job done.



I added 4 oz/gal of sugar to all the batches. Since its the end of the season and the apples have been in storage for a while, I sulfited 5 batches instead of the usual 4, using half a dose of k-meta. Sulfited batches are Wy3068, Wy3056, WLP005, S23 and Brupaks Ale, I did unsulfited batches of Brupaks, Wy3056 and Notty.

S23 can get a little stinky on its own sometimes, but with the sulfite, its really stinky. This has been the first batch this year where there was a noticeable sulfur smell in the house for about the first week. Now its still noticeable in the basement, but not in the rest of the house. The sulfited versions of all the other batches are a little more stinky than their unsulfited counterparts, but you have to get really close to the carboys to notice.

I did a couple of experimental gallon batches using BRY97 yeast. One sulfited, one not. The sulfited one is pretty stinky - almost as bad as the S23 batch and its only a gallon. The unsulfited one smells great.

The apples for this pressing all came from low/no fertilized trees, so the ferment time should be a good bit longer than the last two pressings. All carboys still have both balls floating, so sgs are still 1.018 or higher. I'm hoping that it will be at least a week or two more before they are ready to crash, because I dont have any free secondaries. The carboys from the 3rd pressing (Spitzenburg, Arkansas Black, Ashmead's Kernal and Caville Blanc) are all super clear on top, but the bottom few inches of each carboy has an applesause like trub that is taking forever to compact.

CvilleKevin,

Just an awesome thread! You seriously need to write a book.

With that said, I'm very interested in understanding your cold crashing procedure better. Do you have a post in here that specifically addresses your process of cold crashing?

Thanks again for all the great contributions!

Do you have a post in here that specifically addresses your process of cold crashing?

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There are a few posts that talk about it. If you search this thread for 'cold crash' you will find a bunch, as well as input from other folks. My general process is described on page 3 and hasnt changed all that much. There is also some more detailed info on pages 15 and 16.

This is truly great info to have. To date I've been using unpasteurized apple juice. Its great to know my options now. I'm going to start getting crazy on ciders. So far I've got 3 batches of Ed Wort's apfelwein undery belt and I love it.

oregonbrew541 said:

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According to my lhbs this just came out january I'll be trying it in three weeks on my next five gallon batch I'll start a new thread using applekush recipe when i do but for now has anyone used this?

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just made a batch with this..its for sure on my list of new favorites. its very clean crisp and still sweet. I'm highly impressed and would really like you to give it a try up against others like s05 and notty. i think s05, notty, and m02 would be strong competition for each other. I have a two month old notty a 1 month old s05 and this freshly carbed mo2 all using the appekush recipe. its just hard to battle royal fresh brew with aged brew its kinda unfair so if you could test them i would really appreciate it!

Hi All, Fantastic thread of information!!

Couple of questions if I may:

1. My local orchard is pressing new season apples now, so will head down and grab a few gallons. Only thing is they only have Galas at the moment, would Galas alone (ie no other varieties) make a good cider?

2. CV, in relation to a FG value of around 1.010 for cold crashing, just wondering if that number is affected when adding sugar or honey (approx 2-3lbs per 5 gallons)? I was just wondering if adding the extra fermentables adjusts that end target FG value at all?

would Galas alone (ie no other varieties) make a good cider?

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I really like Galas as an aroma / flavor apple in a mix. As a single varietal, they are not ideal - but if its all you can get, its better than no cider. I like to mix them with a base apple like Cortland or Stayman and a more tart apple like Winesap or Jonathan. I'm assuming that you are in the southern hemisphere, in which case Cortland and Jonathan (or regional equivalents) should be ripening in a week or two if Galas are being picked now. If you dont want to wait, my guess is that you could get decent results using just Galas. You will probably need to add sugar or honey to get your sg up and let them ferment out a little drier than usual to provide a perception of acidity in the finish, since they are not very high in acid by themselves.

I was just wondering if adding the extra fermentables adjusts that end target FG value at all?

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In my experience, adding sugar up front doesnt have much impact on how balanced the cider tastes at a given FG. The main factors that go into the optimal FG for cold crashing are (1) acidity of apples - the more tart the apples, the more residual sugar you will need to balance if you want to be able to drink it quickly (2) the yeast - wheat yeasts are generally better for higher FGs, as they tend not to finish as sticky as ale yeasts which are good for middle range, lager and wine yeasts are good for lower FGs (3) your taste preference is the main determining factor

CV, thanks very much for the reply, appreciate it.
Yes, i'm waaaaay down south, in the southern most part of Australia in fact.
I've just dropped the orchard an email to ask about whether they'll be pressing multiple varieties soon, as last year I got Gala and Pink Lady.

With the Cold Crash, as you mentioned, I might track via the hydrometer, but use taste as the guide, and crash it when I feel there is a good balance between the sweetness and tartness.

Thanks for your previous tips about this, and of using yeasts such as S04, last time I used a wine yeast and let it ferment out, it was quite dry indeed. This time i'll follow your guidance and use the S04, use some sugar, and crash it earlier.

Just for further detail to my post above:
Went down to the local Orchard today to pick up my juice (15 gallons, unpasteurized).
The guys actually did a mix for me (not just Gala's as first thought), not sure of the %'s, but they did Pink Lady, Gala and some Grannies too.
Initial gravity is 1.054.

I also just went out and picked a good half bucketful of Blackberries from my property (they are later in the season, so nice and fat, softer and sweeter now), so I thought I'd split the juice into 2 batches, a straight Apple, and one with 1lb of these blackberries (i'll freeze them) added a few days before cold crashing. CV's notes on the raspberry one he did inspired me.
Do you think Blackberries would work well too?

Basic plan is:
Have just added half recommended doses of sulfite, will leave for 24 hours.
Will add approx 4oz Sugar per gallon, hopefully getting it up to 1.065
Will use S04.
Target is 1.012, so will add the Blackberries at 1.020?
Cold crash at 1.012 for 24+hrs until all clear.
Rack to secondaries, and leave for 2 days. (At this stage will add cinnamon stick(s) to just Apple batch)
Then Bottle to PETs.

I've read through the forum, but at this stage I'm not certain yet about handling the priming for carb. (Although I prefer a lower carbed cider).
With the remaining sugars from crashing at 1.012, I'm wondering whether this will create some carb via any remaining yeast.
Or whether to add some priming sugar to the secondary before bottling. (And if so, how much).

they did Pink Lady, Gala and some Grannies too

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That sounds like a good mix

Do you think Blackberries would work well too?

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I dont see why not. I havent used them, but they are similar enough to raspberries

Your Basic plan sounds good, although getting the cider to carb in PETs could be an issue. If you get all the yeast out of the cider during the crash, then there wont be any to carb the bottles, and if you dont get all the yeast, you risk overcarbing. I generally let the cider sit in the secondary for a month, so I can make sure it is still, and then force carb in a keg. That way, I can control the level of carb. If you have fridge space, then you can chill the bottles after they carb, and that will shut down S04 (just dont try to do this with a lager or champagne yeast - they dont mind the cold). You can carb in bottles at room temp, but its tricky and takes a lot of practice. You have to do a slow ferment with low nutrient juice, and have a feel for when the yeast is about to peter out. Pasteurizing, kegging, or throwing them all in the fridge when they carb (or drinking them) is a lot easier.

Quick update on my batches (as per info in posts above).
Added sugar and got the juice initially up to 1.065
5 1/2 days now into fermentation (S04, at a steady 68 degrees), and just took a sample and reading.
Very sweet still, and suprisingly to me, only at 1.050, I had expected it to progess a bit further by now.
(note - I did not add any Yeast nutrient)

Airlocks are bubbling away every 5 secs or so, and I can hear fizzing from the carboy, as well as a few larger white bubbles forming on top, so assume all ticking away still. I wouldn't say there was a huge foamy fermentation going on though.
Is this sounding ok at this stage? Or should I be expecting quite a layer of thick krauson on top?

Is this sounding ok at this stage? Or should I be expecting quite a layer of thick krauson on top?

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A 15pt drop in 5 days is a little slow for S04 at 68F, but not slow enough to worry about. With that mix of apples and S04, I would expect to see a krauson form by now, but that could be a function of the press and what sort of particulates are in the juice. Usually I see a krausen form before the airlock even starts moving, although with S04 its a fairly thin layer and it sinks back into the juice after about a week.

After reading through this post am I understanding this correctly.... I can stop fermentation by racking into a secondary with s04 or nottingham while using pasteurized cider? Or would I need to cold crash as well? I want to ferment and end up around 1.008 so I plan to bump up to about 1.060 and ferment down to about 1.010 and then rack it into a secondary and if needed cold crash to keep it at 1.008-1.010. Any idea how long it would take in the primary to get this drop? Say temp around 65.

farmskis said:

After reading through this post am I understanding this correctly.... I can stop fermentation by racking into a secondary with s04 or nottingham while using pasteurized cider? Or would I need to cold crash as well? I want to ferment and end up around 1.008 so I plan to bump up to about 1.060 and ferment down to about 1.010 and then rack it into a secondary and if needed cold crash to keep it at 1.008-1.010. Any idea how long it would take in the primary to get this drop? Say temp around 65.

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S04 and Notty are beasts. If you add pasteurized cider into the mix it may do the trick. I would sulfite and sulfate to get the maximum likelihood that the yeasts are knocked out (think wine and Mead) and then baksheesh to taste with the pasteurized juice. Also check what's been added into the juice. Pasteurization does not necessarily mean additives. The Kirkland brand apple juice is pasteurized but has no additives at all.

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This cider says the contents contains 100% juice from pressed apples. No preservatives no sugar added. When reading through the beginning of the post it says that stopping fermentation can be done by racking alone. But it also talks about cold crashing and racking. So I am trying to figure out if it is one or the other or both to stop fermentation. I am not familiar with sulfite or sulfate except in brewing chemistry for sulfate and sulfite a I see on wine labels. Original poster says you are able to stop fermentation and avoiding the need to back sweet.

I can stop fermentation by racking into a secondary with s04 or nottingham while using pasteurized cider? Or would I need to cold crash as well?

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It depends on the juice. If it has a low enough nutrient level (mature standard rootstock trees with no fertilizer), then you can often stop either pasteurized or unpasteurized juice with S04 and Nottingham just by racking. Cold crashing is more reliable though and can be used to shut down a more vigorous ferment. Even cold crashing is not 100% reliable though. I crash and let sit in secondaries at room temp for about a month afterwards, to get some extra clearing and also to make sure the ferment does not start back up. If it does, I crash or rack again. Some of the commercial guys crash and sterile filter afterwards, so that the yeast are 100 percent removed following the crash.

Any idea how long it would take in the primary to get this drop? Say temp around 65.

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At 65F, it should take you 10 to 20 days, depending on the nutrient level in the juice. Commercial juice tends to have a higher nutrient level, ferments fast and is harder to stop. Fresh pressed from older orgainic (no/low fertilized) orchards is easier to work with.

I would sulfite and sulfate to get the maximum likelihood that the yeasts are knocked out

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That works, but the downside is that your cider will taste like sorbate. Some people dont mind the taste. Before you add sulfite and sorbate, I would recommend putting a little bit of sorbate on your tongue and taste it. That taste will remain in your cider and unlike sulfite, will not dissipate over time. If you dont mind the taste, then sulfite/sorbate is fairly reliable.

farmskis said:

This cider says the contents contains 100% juice from pressed apples. No preservatives no sugar added. When reading through the beginning of the post it says that stopping fermentation can be done by racking alone. But it also talks about cold crashing and racking. So I am trying to figure out if it is one or the other or both to stop fermentation. I am not familiar with sulfite or sulfate except in brewing chemistry for sulfate and sulfite a I see on wine labels. Original poster says you are able to stop fermentation and avoiding the need to back sweet.

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Okay, I have a lot of non-cider experience with these two yeasts. I would never trust racking of the yeast came to stop either of them as they will still be in suspension. Cold crashing to below about 50f should stall them, but not all of the yeast will drop out of suspension so it could and likely would restart fermentation if brought back above 60f with any fermentable sugars in the mix. If you chill it and keep it cold then you will be fine. I personally have used potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulphite for still meads. I don't have a keg for carbonation so I do dry carbonated meads like champagne. Look into stove top pasteurization for sweetened carbonated cider. Just know there are risks to doing this too.

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CvilleKevin said:

That works, but the downside is that your cider will taste like sorbate. Some people dont mind the taste. Before you add sulfite and sorbate, I would recommend putting a little bit of sorbate on your tongue and taste it. That taste will remain in your cider and unlike sulfite, will not dissipate over time. If you dont mind the taste, then sulfite/sorbate is fairly reliable.

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A better method is to blend an appropriate amount into a cider as putting it directly on your tongue will not give the same sensory experience. I don't find that the flavor stays in my products when used in appropriate amounts. Just my opinion though.

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Quick update - day 9, and now at 1.038, so fermentation is continuing, albiet slowly. Taste-wise, still very sweet but can now start tasting the very slight apple 'tang' introduced from the fermentation. Lovely fresh apple aroma and flavour.
So I'm assuming unless I have a complete halt in fermentation, i'll just keep letting it work away slowly.

So I'm assuming unless I have a complete halt in fermentation, i'll just keep letting it work away slowly.

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Sounds like a plan. A 27 point drop in the first 9 days does seem a little slow for S04 at 68F, but not slow slow enough to worry about. I wish I could get my early season ferments to go that slow, as it makes it a lot easier to hit a good target FG when its not fermenting quite so fast. Its possible that your orchard uses even less fertilizer than the place where I get my juice, which would make for a slower ferment. If that is the case, you should have an easier time than most, getting the ferment to stop where you want it.

CV, thanks again for the info. I do know that the orchards in this area tend to particularly focus on being organic as much as possible, so you may well be right, they might not introduce many fertilizers etc
I'll provide another update later, purely out of interest of how this particular juice behaves.

I know i'm getting in on this thread about 6 years too late, but for anyone who is still listening: Acetobacter causes vinegar production, NOT pasteurized juice. Acetobacter(as afore mentioned, the bug that takes over dominance after saccharomyces dies out, and produces vinegar.) infections are caused by a handful of things: Poorly sanitized and sterilized brewing equipment- SO, clean your crap thoroughly. Also, Acetobacter requires oxygen to survive. There is 1 good way to ensure your serving bottles are oxygen free: Bottle a bit before you have reached your target FG(Dont bottle at too high a gravity or the bottles could inadvertantly explode.) The yeast left in suspension will metabolize any free dissolved O2 and create a sophisticated, sparkling appearance. :rockin:

YYEEAAHHH, I think...... I just posted to the wrong thread. Sorry.

CvilleKevin,

I looked back to check but cannot find any mention of why you started using K-met. So, why did you?
I have been using the cold crashing method for over a year and only had minor problems. What kind of storage times are you getting on bottled cider (what temp are your bottles at)? Have you had any problems with secondary fermentation or bacterial infection. Have you been able to limit the oxygen in your system to limit Acetobacter action?

Thanks for any answers you can provide.

Ron

I looked back to check but cannot find any mention of why you started using K-met. So, why did you?

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I started using k-meta again on about half of my keg batches, to get better longevity. With no k-meta, the ciders taste a lot better in the first three months, but would often get a little too acidic in the 9-18 month range.

What kind of storage times are you getting on bottled cider (what temp are your bottles at)?

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I usually keep bottles for 6-24 months. A few that are 36 months or more. I just finished one from 2008 that was pretty good. Storage temp is room temp in a basement with no air conditioning, so varies throughout the year from 50 to 90 degrees.

Have you had any problems with secondary fermentation or bacterial infection.

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Not in a while. If I am trying something new, I will use clear square swing top bottles, because those break more easily. That may seem a bit counter intuitive, but if a secondary fermentation does start up, I'd rather have it break the bottle sooner than later. I havent had one break in a long time though. Last winter, I moved my bottle crates up against a wall, so there was no way they could get direct sun. Where I had them before, they could get sun if I didnt keep them covered, and I lost a few on hot days when I forgot to put the cover back on.

Have you been able to limit the oxygen in your system to limit Acetobacter action?

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Mostly. I'll use my CO2 tank to blow some CO2 into the empty carboy before a rack, will blow a little into the previously full carboy when it is on its way down, and top off with CO2 if there is any headspace. Not quite as good as a completely sealed system, but seems to do the job fairly well and is easy enough.

For the past couple seasons, my main problem hasnt been Acetobacter, but what is probably a wild yeast or bacteria, which after 9-18 months will give the cider more of an acidic bite over time. Its not the acetic acid from Acetobacter though, more of a malic or citric taste, and it usually fades after another year (but who has time for that?). I'm pretty sure that it is some organism that the ale yeast is not killing during the main fermentation, as it seems to be associated with only some pressings (usually later season) and using k-meta before pitching seems to keep it from happening. Its also an individual taste thing. I brought a few 18 month bottles to a party last night and one of them was too sharp for me. Other folks liked the extra tang, which was like an exaggerated granny smith taste, so the bottle was gone in no time, but I prefer something smoother.