Perpetuating the myths of extract homebrewing

I totally agree with this guys point about the economy of homebrewing but it urks me that he is giving extract brewing the status that you can't make great beer. I have been doing all-grain for some time but I still think that you can make great beer easily using extract when your a new brewer as long as you have done all of the reading and have the right tools.

I read the post you linked and didn't come away thinking that you can't make good beer with extract. He mentions that by transitioning to all-grain, you may be able to bring your costs down. That's not bashing extract brewing IMO.

Anyway, you and I are in agreement that good beer can be made with good extract and good methods.

Yeah I read over it again but in the comments he still doesn't think a noob could make a good beer from the start, I guess I'm just kind of defensive right now because I have a friend I'm getting into brewing and I'm trying to dispel myths about extract brewing.

I can see that. He said that the first few batches are probably going to be sucky and most brewers start out with extract. Putting 2 & 2 together, I can see how one would infer that brewing with extract makes sucky beer. I don't think that was his intention, however.

A friend of mine at work is learning how to brew, and we've been talking alot about it. He's using extract and has been unhappy with some of his beers and really likes my beer. So, naturally, he thought that he needs to go AG to get good beer. Instead of encouraging that, I've been helping him with his process, showing him how to control fermentation temps, cool his wort quicker, pitch healthy amounts of yeast, get good extract, etc. His beers have gotten a lot better because of it. He will eventually move to AG, but for the right reasons.

I have always done extract brewing , and dad did too. Steeping grains and using quality extract and hops always yields quality brew for me.

But I have to say that AG gives a little more control and freedom. Come tax return time, I am hoping to get a cooler MT/LT and try my first AG by myself. I have helped my uncle a couple times, and I think this is my next step.

Lots of people assume you just need more expensive equipment and
more elaborate methods to make things work well. Same thing applies
to music, etc.

As with anything, these are only tools to increase potential.

Much of the underlying reasons for quality in any venture are a thorough
understanding of fundamental principles and a good deal of discipline and
practice.

0202 said:

Lots of people assume you just need more expensive equipment and
more elaborate methods to make things work well. Same thing applies
to music, etc.

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You know what I tell people like that? If you have the best golf clubs on the planet, tiger woods will still kick your ass with a set of clubs from wal-mart! :rockin:

enderwig said:

You know what I tell people like that? If you have the best golf clubs on the planet, tiger woods will still kick your ass with a set of clubs from wal-mart! :rockin:

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True dat! I don't think that when I worked at the LHBS the owner liked me telling people this, I wasn't much of a salesman always wanted to get people into the hobby on the cheap.

IMO places like LHBS should be more worried about honesty
and support than blowing the roof off their profit margin.

Just my .02 though I'm not eating based on my LHBS income.

farmbrewernw said:

True dat! I don't think that when I worked at the LHBS the owner liked me telling people this, I wasn't much of a salesman always wanted to get people into the hobby on the cheap.

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We need more sales people like this. I always tried to do the same thing in retail sales (ugh, school jobs :O ). I feel that if they feel like you were really helpful and you saved them a lot, you'll get enough repeat business to justify the initially smaller sale. I'd rather have a cheap and informed regular customer than a fool that I can dupe into blowing a few hundred in one go.

Exactly... I have a buddy of mine who is a BJCP certifed judge who does extract brews simply because he can get bulk ME at a good price and because it is simpler.

Both methods produce beer. Both methods can either produce AWESOME beer, or **** beer.
-Me

I love extract brewing - I have A lot of respect for my friends who do all grain but for me its just too much of a commitment of time that I don't have

I get very good results with extract and I ALWAYS have fresh home brew on tap

JoeMama said:

Exactly... I have a buddy of mine who is a BJCP certifed judge who does extract brews simply because he can get bulk ME at a good price and because it is simpler.

Both methods produce beer. Both methods can either produce AWESOME beer, or **** beer.
-Me

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And I've tasted it all....I have a friend who makes great Mr Beer brews even. Like I said in this blog.

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Revvy/Why_cant_we_all_get_along/

It's about the process, and the brewer NOT whether it's all grain, extract, coopers or mr beer...

In my mind, a well-brewed extract + steeping grain (or even extract only) beer with careful attention to fermentation temps, ingredient freshness, pitching rate, process variables, etc. is virtually indistinguishable from an equally well-brewed AG or PM beer.

To the OPs point, I think bloggers like that equate 'extract brewing' with kit & kilo recipes which do produce mediocre beer when brewed according to the manufacturer's instructions. A 'extract kit' assembled by Midwest, NB, AHS or Brewmaster's Warehouse is in a whole different league.

flyangler18 said:

In my mind, a well-brewed extract + steeping grain (or even extract only) with careful attention to fermentation temps, ingredient freshness, pitching rate, process variables is virtually indistinguishable from an equally well-brewed AG or PM beer.

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Which can be borne out in contests, they (at least none that i have entered) distinguish in the entry forms whether or not the beer is AG, Extract, etc, and plenty of extract beers have won.

Palmer's even said that.

Even Papazian has said that the majority of homebrewers in the world are still extract...and it's really only been since things like turkey fryers and cooler mash tuns have made AG brewing more accessible and easy for people to do it. Looking at some of the old ways it was done (like the oven/pot method of mashing) I never would have done it....

There is something to be said about a full volume boil. Partial volume boils are really exclusive to extract. If you do a full volume boil at the extract level then you do so at the peril of uncontrolled darkening and carmelization. To go back to the music metaphor, I love the austerity of Brian Eno for ambient music, but in term of the variety and fullness of musical experience, I love him more as a producer with full access to all the tools of the trade and the artists of his choosing at his disposal.

Partial volume boils are really exclusive to extract. If you do a full volume boil at the extract level then you do so at the peril of uncontrolled darkening and carmelization.

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Rob, wouldn't a partial boil with a full extract addition contribute more greatly to darkening and carmelization than a full volume boil?

But even then, you can gain greater control over undue darkening through late extract additions.

flyangler18 said:

To the OPs point, I think bloggers like that equate 'extract brewing' with kit & kilo recipes which do produce mediocre beer when brewed according to the manufacturer's instructions. A 'extract kit' assembled by Midwest, NB, AHS or Brewmaster's Warehouse is in a whole different league.

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That's a HUGE kettle of worms in Australia...Allgrain Brewers call themselves "craft brewers" over there to distinguish themselves from "homebrewers" who are Kit and Kilo brewers...Not kit and kilo extract w/grains brewers exist in some gray area.


The Jeepster's right about a full boil, but actually that's one of the tricks to make an extract batch taste better, that and other tips like late extract additions and things like that. Even laughing gnome figured that out...remember his first official "brewing" thread?

I made some "Brewin' Eno" beer labels for my girlfriend's
father recently. He is an official Brian Eno officianado.

It was as potent as minimal gets.

flyangler18 said:

Rob, wouldn't a partial boil with a full extract addition contribute more greatly to darkening and carmelization than a full volume boil?

But even then, you can gain greater control over undue darkening through late extract additions.

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I think we are saying the same thing. And yes a late addition will limit your carmelization and darkening. If the style requires melanoidins, then I think you see the conundrum.

BTW. My last post was mobile phone and sushi infused.

I will start a thread that explains this phenomena.

blowmax10 said:

I love extract brewing - I have A lot of respect for my friends who do all grain but for me its just too much of a commitment of time that I don't have

I get very good results with extract and I ALWAYS have fresh home brew on tap

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x2

I actually started out with AG but i barely have the time to do extracts and partials let alone AG. I have made EXCELLENT beers with both and with many of them i prefer the extracts over the AG.

Just really glad that someone get s the Brian Eno reference.

olllllo said:

I think we are saying the same thing. And yes a late addition will limit your carmelization and darkening. If the style requires melanoidins, then I think you see the conundrum.

BTW. My last post was mobile phone and sushi infused.

I will start a thread that explains this phenomena.

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I dig, I dig.

Of course, this also speaks to what the individual brewer's taste and aims are; I'm just hesitant to say with certainty that one process over another is inherently 'better' overall.

olllllo said:

Just really glad that someone get s the Brian Eno reference.

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Let's see, is there an Oblique Strategies card that applies here?

"Don't be afraid of things because they're easy to do"

Yep, you could say that's relevant to extract brewing.

more Strategies here

Late extract addition helps, I think full volume boils are a pain so when I do a partial mash or extract batch I just do a late addition. I really can't tell the difference between AG 2-row and DME even with my own recipes.

I'm really happy that someone put this thread up. So many people turn there nose up at extract brewing and jump into all-grain before they even begin to understand and master fundamental things like pitching rates and temperature control.

Extract and AG both make good beer; it just comes down to money, time, equipment and control.

I just recently started AG, but for the past three years I was extract w/grain, partial boil. My second batch ever was an extract ESB that placed runner-up in a local competition.

To continue a common theme, a great process will (usually) make great beer.

I am glad i ran into this thread, i was considering going AG in the enxt 6 months because i want the control and I constantly thirst for knowledge. But it seems i need to try some new things, late extract additions, full boil, and understand their impact prior to stepping up, and I am 100% ok with that!

I plan on working my extract setup until improvements in
my methods yield negligible results. Then I'll consider going
AG.

I forsee that taking a while.

olllllo said:

...I love the austerity of Brian Eno for ambient music, but in term of the variety and fullness of musical experience, I love him more as a producer with full access to all the tools of the trade and the artists of his choosing at his disposal.

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I actually prefer his non-ambient music...Here Come the Warm Jets, Taking Tiger Mountain, Before and After Science, Another Green World...these albums have formed the soundtrack of my life for 25 years.

IMHO a lot of the negative stuff about extract brewing comes from years ago when the malt was all in cans and generally had some age on it. Now you can get really fresh extract in a variety of styles. I love all three kinds of brewing and jump around from one to the other. I think that AG does give you more control over the finished products taste, but sometimes it's not for the better.

Good is a subjective word. That is always the problem with these types of threads.

I have only made one good beer in all my brewing experience. The rest have been fine and very drinkable, but to make a truly good beer is a special thing. This hobby greatly depends on your expectations coming in.

Talking up how awesome your homebrew will be is a misnomer in my opinion. To someone who drinks BMC and is just starting to dabble in different beer styles, then yes even their first brew may be fantastic to them, but I can almost guarantee that it will not be a good beer (and that is just fine). Brewing is a skill that must be learned. Just take a look at the many, many, many mediocre to bad commercial brews... making a good beer just isn't that easy.

Now, on to the cheery side. Good beer can be made with extract. IMHO, you are more limited by style and imagination, but for simple ales and whatnot, extract is just fine and can produce some delicious product.

My main point is that if you are a big beer drinker with a refined palate who has a lot of beer drinking experience, don't expect to be blown away by your first couple brews. You will likely make something drinkable and will be honing your skills for future brews of greatness. When you do brew that special batch, taking it our with you to show your beer nerd friends what you have brewed will make years of research and brewing worthi it. Trust me, that experience is golden.

Beerthoven said:

I actually prefer his non-ambient music...Here Come the Warm Jets, Taking Tiger Mountain, Before and After Science, Another Green World...these albums have formed the soundtrack of my life for 25 years.

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I had Eno, An Ending Ascent for my Wedding processional: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOgQyIMX_XU]YouTube - Brian Eno "An Ending (Ascent)" from "Apollo..."[/ame]

Extract is a beer ingredient that has a host of implied processes when using it. When it is the primary ingredient, there is a sweet spot of style that extract (and it's supporting processes) fit nicely into.



Incidentally, when extract is used in an AG process, such as a pumping up the OG on a Barleywine or priming, you never hear about "extract twang"