Stout Issues

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mgortel

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Location
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I am a huge fan of Guiness.....probably my favorite beer...I love stouts.

I have tried brewing several stouts all-grain.......Dry Stouts and Sweet Stouts....even a extract stout before I did all grain....and I have to say I have not been impressed with any yet. They are ok....but nothing to get too excited about. I realize it will never taste like Guiness.

My latest sweet stout is ok....but still just not quite whatr I want.....been in the bottle for 6 weeks......and still not quite as good as I was hoping....perhaps the stouts need to age longer in bottle? Any feedback guys?

BTW.....I am drinking Nut Brown and Hefewizens I brewed previously while brewing an Irish Red today....cheers!
 
I have brewed multiple stouts and I'm pretty impressed with most of them. Possible water issue / mash Ph? What's the recipe? To me guinness is the lower end of my list of stouts I enjoy. Maybe breed a different recipe?
 
Thanks for response....here is some additional infor on my water and latest brew....

My water profile (from Ward laboratories test)

Ph 7.5
Sodium 43
Potassium 2
Calcium 26
magnesium 13
Total hardness 113 (CaCO3)
Sulfate 9
Chloride 93
Carbonate <1
Bicarbonate 28 (HCO3)
Total Alkalinity 23 (CaCO3)

My latest recipe was a sweet stout: 5.5 gallon, OG= 1.062, FG = 1.023
9 lbs 10 oz pale malt
15.5 oz black patent
11.7 oz Crystal (80)
7.8 oz chocolate malt
1.33oz E Kent Goldings (60 min boil)
1 lb milk sugar (lactose)

Wyeast 1099 (Whitbread)

Mashed 151F

Boiled 60 mins

Fermented at 64-65F, at last few days of primary went up to 68F (3 weeks primary, then bottled)
 
The one thing that I found with stouts that I have done is they almost always have to be under hopped. without under hopping them they will take on some of the hop flavor, even when put in at 60 min. Also, a malt to add a nice bready flavor flavor goes a long way to add some dimension and round out the flavor. Rye also helps when added in a small amount, just adds a little "zing" and a little more flavor.
I dont know, I mean, I am a huge fan of stouts with lots of different levels of roasted malt and caramalt levels.
Also, I ferment my stouts at higher temps, with a fruitier yeast. Belgian yeast is great for stouts I think
 
mgortel said:
Anyone see any issues w my water profile or recipe above?

That seems like a huge amount of black patent, which I don't find to be a very pleasant taste. It tastes like charcoal to me. Roasted barley is kind of essential for a true stout, and adds a nicer flavor, in my opinion, with much of the color of black patent.

If you're trying to clone Guiness, you'd want a low OG dry stout with a bit of soured beer added back in, I believe. A sweet stout isn't going to taste much like Guiness, although it can still be a great beer.
 
ong....thanks for the response and feedback. On the sweet stout I was not trying to do a guiness (as a guinesss is a dry stout).....just was posting my latest stout recipe.....thank you for comments on black patent though.....good info.

Like I said.l....I dont hate the stouts I have done but I think they can be much better.....any comment on waiting for the beers to "mature" longer in bottle....does that have any effect.....obviously I can try that and see......
 
NO...I have not done anything with pH estimates or looking at that......maybe that is my issue......any advice, spreadsheets, etc is much appreciated!
 
My stouts and porters usually go from meh to wow somewhere between 2 and 3 months in the bottle. They are slow to mature and when they do it seems to be like flipping a switch. JMHO

I hthought I had seen that type of post and info before,,.....thank you.....I will let my latest brew go for another month or so in bottle and hopefully that helps! Thanks!
 
NO...I have not done anything with pH estimates or looking at that......maybe that is my issue......any advice, spreadsheets, etc is much appreciated!
Kind of surprised you got the lab report and didn't use it in a spreadsheet. There are several out there. EZwater and Brunwatter are popular.
 
Thanks...I will look into that......I have played around with water additions in the past (Gypsum, chalk, etc.)...but will look at those for specifics on my next stout......
 
I know stouts and porters are similar but I'm also thinking the black patent may be a problem. With that amount I would think time would help mellow it a bit and you may enjoy it more, recipe seems good other than that much black patent. Personally with a stout I shoot for at least .5 lb roasted barley and like 4 oz black patent for color some times. Maybe mash a bit higher 155ish unless it's a dry stout then the 151 seems fine.
 
That water could easily be a problem for dark grists like stout. The alkalinity may be insufficient to buffer the mash pH drop. But, this water has a lot a similarity to the water from the Wicklow Mountains that Dublin's Guinness brewery uses to brew.

The Guinness method is to mash the base malt and the roast malt separately. Their local water IS NOT ideal for brewing a stout since it is relatively soft and non-alkaline. The local water is well suited to mashing the pale base malts in their beer. They create the Guinness Flavor Extract using the separately mashed (steeped) roast malt bill to add the flavor and color that is the signature of their stout. GFE is known to be 'soured'. But I contend that it is probably just tart due to the acidity of the roast grains and the low alkalinity water they are steeped in.

The stout style may have originated in that Irish region, but its likely that it was originally brewed in areas with much higher water alkalinity. The areas to the north and west of Dublin have that type of water. Guinness just figured out how to do it with low alkalinity water. While this method can work, I still find there are better tasting dry stouts than Guinness. Using water with the proper alkalinity can produce a fuller body and roast flavors without having to resort to a high percentage of flaked barley and roasted grains.

I agree with an early post in this thread that the bittering level should be slightly lower in a stout. The roast character is another form of 'bitterness' that is used to balance the malt flavor. Therefore, a slight reduction in the BU/GU is OK for this style (not that the ratio is very valuable).
 
So I downloaded spreadsheet Double-R recommended...and entered my information from my latest sweet stout and water profile (preliminarily......is that a word?).....I know I need to read up on the site to make sure I understand....anyway, ends up predicting a mash pH of 5.0.......well below the recommended 5.7

So I can add Chalk (CaCO3) to get it up to pH 5.7

Some more reading and understanding on my part is in order..... :mug:
 
Actually I think I want to be in the 5.2-5.5 range right?? Not 5.7 for pH
I don't know that spread sheet so it is hard to tell. 5.4 - 5.6 at ROOM TEMPERATURE is kind of the target for home brewers. We don't want to ruin expensive probes at mash temperature. The mash pH will fall as the temperature rises. Without knowing the spreadsheet I don't know what mash temperature it is geared at. Since it recommends 5.7 we can 'ass' 'u' 'me' it is at room temperature though.

Pickling/slaked lime, calcium hydroxide, is the preferred method of adjusting your pH up though. Chalk doesn't dissolve well and you have to load up the mash with extra which makes in unpredictable and possibly affects beer flavor.
 
Heya mabrungard....thank you for feedback. The information on your site is great and the spreadsheet VERY nice. Looks like my mash 5.0 pH definitely could be problem....stouts I have done have not been "smooth" more of a tart aftertaste which looks like the low pH of my mash due to water profile is the issue. Looks like I will need to add some chalk net time I brew a stout

Thanks all for feedback!
 
Good luck with the chalk. Unless you are taking the time to dissolve it into the water with CO2, chalk does not provide reliable alkalinity. The CO2 dissolving process takes days. Any brewer is better off using lime to supply alkalinity to those mashes that require it.
 
Good luck with the chalk. Unless you are taking the time to dissolve it into the water with CO2, chalk does not provide reliable alkalinity. The CO2 dissolving process takes days. Any brewer is better off using lime to supply alkalinity to those mashes that require it.

Thank you...i assume this would be pickling lime then? Also, can I add it to water ahead of time in kettle before putting in my mash tun....or should I add the pickling lime directly to the mash and stir in there???

Oh yeah...and where to get pickling lime??? Grocery store maybe???
 
Thank you...i assume this would be pickling lime then? Also, can I add it to water ahead of time in kettle before putting in my mash tun....or should I add the pickling lime directly to the mash and stir in there???

Oh yeah...and where to get pickling lime??? Grocery store maybe???

Yep, pickling lime or slaked lime. Same thing. You can sometimes find it in the canning supplies section of some stores. I had to ask the manager of my store and they directed me to it. It was well hidden.

I suggest adding it directly to the mash since it will drive water pH sky high if added to only the water. It shouldn't really be a problem if the water has low calcium content, but it still makes sense to moderate the pH effect by adding directly to the mash.

By the way, make a lime water solution with distilled or RO water if you can only weigh out lime in coarse units like ounces or whole grams. Then you can add portions of that solution to add smaller amounts of lime with higher accuracy. For instance, add an ounce to 1 liter of water. Then add a tenth of a liter of the solution to supply a tenth of an ounce of lime.
 
Along with your pH, the amount of black patent in your recipe is pretty high. My milk stout recipe is pretty similar and that is when I found I do not like black patent at all. After 3-4 months in bottles the flavors have gotten much better and it is quite enjoyable now. Next stout I make with used de-bittered black malt, pale chocolate, and roated barley for color. Maybe a bit of special-B because I really enjoy that one in darker brews.
 
OK...since I am an Engineer by profession....I have been obsessing over this and over-analyzing it...lol:D

Couple follow up questions:

I would plan on calculating how much Pickling Lime I need based on water report, etc....but, I will also check my mash pH before adding any pickling lime....to make sure I do not overshoot

1) When checking initial pH of Mash....how long after mash in should it be checked?
2) Once I add some pickling lime to bring pH up....how long does it take to react....i.e. how long should I need to wait to recheck pH to see if more is needed?

THanks!
 
Do you only drink Guiness? Or do you try a lot of different styles of stouts? (Dry, sweet, oatmeal, American) I ask cause in my opinion Guiness is a very good dry stout but also very simple. Maybe the stouts you are making are way more complex than Guiness and if your comparing them to guiness, it might be why your not happy about them. Also as pointed out, thats a lot of black patent. Try and brew that beer again but cut the black patent in half and see if its the black patent your not happy with. I personally never try and go over 4 oz of black patent.
 
I like different stouts.....Troegs java Head is a good one as well....got some potency in that one.

The amount of Black Patent being to high seems to be the consensus on this post ...definately reduce that if I do another Sweet Stout.

But when I calculated my mash pH for that recipe it came out to 5.0....way to low....I want to adjust that up on next stout.

ANyone have any favorite stout recipes they can point me to..??? I was thinking of trying Biermunchers Ode to Arthur Dry Stout.
 
OK...since I am an Engineer by profession....I have been obsessing over this and over-analyzing it...lol:D

Couple follow up questions:

I would plan on calculating how much Pickling Lime I need based on water report, etc....but, I will also check my mash pH before adding any pickling lime....to make sure I do not overshoot

1) When checking initial pH of Mash....how long after mash in should it be checked?
2) Once I add some pickling lime to bring pH up....how long does it take to react....i.e. how long should I need to wait to recheck pH to see if more is needed?

THanks!

Yep, we think about stuff way too much!

Whether you check pH or not has to do with how confident you are that your water quality is actually where you say it is with the water inputs and that the grain is typical. I use RO water, so I am reasonably sure that the water quality is consistent. But I do still check pH with my freshly-calibrated meter. The mash pH prediction has been very consistent with the reading. But if you are concerned about the water or grain quality and don't have a good way to check pH, then add only about 3/4 of the lime. Ending up with a mash pH that is a little low is better than ending up a little high. Although if you are targeting a typical 5.4 mash pH, the difference is not likely to significantly affect the beer.

I use a RIMS, so I'm moving liquid around. It distributes the lime quickly throughout. If you are mixing, then do it very well and then draw off a Grant or two of wort and recycle it through the mash. That will help make sure its distributed.

Lime works instantly. It reacts with every proton donor it comes in contact with. The only thing limiting the time it takes for the pH to stabilize is how well the lime is distributed through the mash. With my RIMS, checking after 5 min is enough of a wait.
 
IIRC Guinness uses a special yeast and they reharvest that yeast from every batch. So i think that gives their beer a twist that would be very hard to duplicate.
For me, i'm so used to stronger stouts and RIS, that Guinness is almost watered down. Have you tried the Guinness Extra Stout, or Guinness Foreign Stout? Both of them are pretty awesome and more stout than the original!
 
I have not tried those other Guiness Stouts...but have tried other stronger (7-8% ABV) stouts and do like them....one of which is Troegs Java Head....

I will have to try the stronger Guiness ones as well...

I am reallly looking forward to giving another go at a stout using the feedback on this thread.....I ordered a pH meter and appropriate water additives....so I will make sure my mash pH is correct this time.....and also watch my sparge pH....or just lower the pH upfront to 5.5 to 6.0 so I dont have to worry about it going above 6

Thanks everyone....now to finalize a recipe... :D
 
Would you like a Guiness recipe for a partial mash I use? I can give you my best interpretation of the all grain version if you'd like. That way, you can brew it and compare it to a regular Guiness and see how they're different (though I'm not claiming the recipe I use is a perfect match).
 
Would you like a Guiness recipe for a partial mash I use? I can give you my best interpretation of the all grain version if you'd like. That way, you can brew it and compare it to a regular Guiness and see how they're different (though I'm not claiming the recipe I use is a perfect match).

Sure that would be great!
 
Ok here is my go to stout recipe for 10 gallons. I have a few bottles that are 3 years old (last tasting was at the two year mark) My wife and I drink one on our anniversary and I can say that at the 2 year mark it was fantastic. The beer really needs at least 6 months in the bottle to even be tame. However, 4 years will probably see the beer peak and start going the other way. Usually when I make it, it is gone in less than a year (dang extended family drinks it all). If you are wanting a Guinness style you need nitrogen and a year min in the bottle. Also how you pore the stout can change it. I do a "high pore" (about 4 inches above the glass)to try and degas the beer as much as i can and put a nice cascading head on it like a Guinness. Hope that helps.

24 lb P a l e Ma l t , 2 R o w , U S
3 lb 5 oz C r y s t a l 8 0 L
2 lb C h o c o l a t e Ma l t
1 lb 10 oz Be l g i a n A r o ma t i c
1 lb 6 oz C a n d i S u g a r , D a r k
12 oz Bl a c k ( P a t e n t ) Ma l t
12 oz C a r a f a I I I

1.5 oz magum (60min)
1.5 oz Perle (60 min)

2.5 oz SWEET oragne peel (10 min)
3 Vanilla Beans chopped (10min)

1.5 oz Heavy toast french Oak Chips (soaked in 1.5 Oz Glenlivet scotch for 3 days then put into secondary for 7 days, it really easy to over do it, and the scotch flavor will mellow with time)

Belgian Ardennes Yeast

154F mash temp
76% Mash Efficiency

ABV 9.1%
 
My stouts and porters usually go from meh to wow somewhere between 2 and 3 months in the bottle. They are slow to mature and when they do it seems to be like flipping a switch. JMHO

I made an oatmeal stout and it was fairly tasty about 3 weeks after bottling. Shared them with friends and family and no complaints. Found an extra one in the back of the fridge 3 months after bottling, cracked it open and HOLY CRAP! It was the best stout I've ever tasted. I was so excited and couldn't believe I made it or that it had aged into something so delicious and different than what it was just 2.5 months ago. I was also bummed that my friends and family go the young tasting version and hadn't tasted it like I just had.
 
SO it sounds like I should be aging my current batch of Sweet Stout in the fridge...not at roomtemp? It has been at room temp 5-6 weeks....so well carb'd....
 
SO it sounds like I should be aging my current batch of Sweet Stout in the fridge...not at roomtemp? It has been at room temp 5-6 weeks....so well carb'd....

I leave mine at room temperature until a few days before drinking it. I like to let it mature all it will at room temp but have enough refrigeration time to get the CO2 dissolved. Then I might take it out and set it on the counter for half an hour or so to warm a bit because that is where all the flavors are.:rockin:
 
Water chemistry aside, my stout tastes more like Guinness if I add an inch of water to the glass. This is not an exaggeration, Guinness is just very watery tasting to me.

Seriously, try a stout with some water in it. I want to know if I'm the only one who likes it.
 
SO it sounds like I should be aging my current batch of Sweet Stout in the fridge...not at roomtemp? It has been at room temp 5-6 weeks....so well carb'd....

I think that aging ales in a refrigerated environment does not allow the yeast and oxygen to mature the beer, yes there is some oxygen still in the beer after fermenting. Think of wine aging, it is cellared from 55 to 73 degrees F. the temperature determines max shelf life. The higher the temp the shorter the life, the lower the temp the longer it takes to mature. refrigerating the beer at 38 would pretty much stop all maturing.

Hope that helps
http://www.wineperspective.com/STORAGE TEMPERATURE & AGING.htm
 
Water chemistry aside, my stout tastes more like Guinness if I add an inch of water to the glass. This is not an exaggeration, Guinness is just very watery tasting to me.

Seriously, try a stout with some water in it. I want to know if I'm the only one who likes it.

Guinness dry stout is a light beer. Is it possible that your stout recipe produces too high a gravity?
 
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