Can't decide B3 or Brew Magic

OK I am set on spending the cash on a system and can't weld, don't have time for the build, and want the easy route.

I can not decide between a Brew Magic system or the 1550 tippy dump with full digital from B3. The difference between the 2 are not much with shipping but I just cant decide. Anyone have any pro's and cons between them. I have searched, read and am still undecided. Thanks ahead of time

Either one will make beer as good as you are able.

Both are excellent systems. Best bet is to locate one close and do a brew in with the Owner. That is what sealed the deal for me on my decision.

I personally chose the BM because there were some things that did not "wow" me about the B3. And, at the time of my purchase, the B3 was not fitted with QD's where the BM was fitted with tri-clamps.

What level of automation do they have? What is the complete price for the B3? I know the Brew Magic is pretty straight forward with pricing, the B3 has endless options.

My system is for sale, and I think is less $$.

$4k

If it were me, I would go with the brew magic. A few microbreweries use them as pilot systems. Sabco is a solid company. Although their products are on the expensive side, they are high quality (Tri Clover fittings, plumbed with Stainless Steel etc.) with good support. I am not as familiar with the B3 system. The other diference is that the Brew Magic System is a RIMS and the B3 system is a HERMS.

Sawdustguy said:

If it were me, I would go with the brew magic. A few microbreweries use them as pilot systems. Sabco is a solid company. Although their products are on the expensive side, they are high quality (Tri Clover fittings, plumbed with Stainless Steel etc.) with good support. I am not as familiar with the B3 system. The other diference is that the Brew Magic System is a RIMS and the B3 system is a HERMS.

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IIRC, Stone and Rogue pilot on a B3.

Several pilot on a BM including Dog Fish Head.

The Pol said:

What level of automation do they have? What is the complete price for the B3? I know the Brew Magic is pretty straight forward with pricing, the B3 has endless options.

My system is for sale, and I think is less $$.

$4k

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Have you brewed anything yet to prove your concept works?

Sawdustguy said:

Have you brewed anything yet to prove your concept works?

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No, thus the wink...??

I am being quoted $5436 shipped from B3 for a 1550 with full digital, digital pilot, whirlpool chiller, and boil kettle screen. Sabco is $5703 shipped for the Brew Magic. I am leaning more towards the Brew Magic because of the tri-clover fittings, hard plumbed, its one and done without countless options like the B3. I guess I need to really decide if I want HERMS in 12 weeks or RIMS in 8 weeks

I vote RIMS in 8 weeks

Jesus, I want your problems...

Augie said:

I am being quoted $5436 shipped from B3 for a 1550 with full digital, digital pilot, whirlpool chiller, and boil kettle screen. Sabco is $5703 shipped for the Brew Magic. I am leaning more towards the Brew Magic because of the tri-clover fittings, hard plumbed, its one and done without countless options like the B3. I guess I need to really decide if I want HERMS in 12 weeks or RIMS in 8 weeks

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If you can hold off til next christmas, Sabco will throw in shipping for free.

Brew Magic, lot stronger kettles and hard plumbed.....

BM: Pro's

Touchscreen PLC
Tri-clamps
Stainless everything that touches wort
Tri-clamp heating element
Keggle kettle (less left behind)
ships capable of easy convert to NG
RIMS design (no bulk water to heat)

Cons:
No tippy dump
Touchscreen PLC (pricey with proprietary software)
Manual burner control
Manual Burner controlled step heating
Will not accomodate larger kettles
cannot whirlpool for break management

B3 Pros;

More compact design
can change to larger kettles
Ranco controllers (easy to replace)
thermocoupler controller heating of HLT
QD's
can whirlpool for break management

B3 Cons;

Vertical design, mash tun at highest point
awkward kettle valve location
must remember to disconnect controller lead when tippy dumping MLT
QD's
Must keep large volume of water at temp for mash recirc
Tippy dump latch can sieze

GilaMinumBeer said:

If you can hold off til next christmas, Sabco will throw in shipping for free.

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Nah I am ready to roll and I am even considering the 4hr drive to pick up the rig instead of shipping from Sabco. I just can't figure how Morebeer wants 800+ for shipping even for freight it seems high. I have a feeling I will get the BM but a little more research and waiting on a few responses to questions before I pull the trigger next week

Now off to plan the new kegerator build.....

What questions do you have about the BM?

GilaMinumBeer said:

What questions do you have about the BM?

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Really its just shipping info, payment info, etc....

I am assuming you have one, any recommendations, tips, for a future owner?

Hey Augie-

I was previously trying to make the decision you are making right now until i found a brewery that blew my socks off. It has some key advantages that neither the BM or the B3 has.

www.brewmation.com

It's fully electric, which I didn't really want at first, but came around. Electric is a lot cheaper per brew and you never have to refill a propane tank. I live in New York and had a hard time imagining wanting to brew in frigid weather (it was 4 degrees last night). I have read a lot here from people who custom fab'd both B3 and BM clones as well as brutus clones and many of them said that if they did it again, they would build an all electric rig. Point is, 'don't fear the low density water heater element'! It doesn't scorch the wort.

Anyhoo, check out the vids. They are of the semi-auto system, but the full auto is just -punch in your brew data, add ingredients, put the sparge arm in place, and come back later for wort chilling.

Key benefits are:
-one thing to sanitize- ball valve after boil kettle
-multiple peristatic pumps- which are like medical grade and he makes them
-so, you don't have to worry about pump priming, etc.. like other pumps
-much less $$ for full automation compared to B3 or BM
-bigger kettles -17.5 gal (not compared to the 20 gal B3, though)
-4 weeks turnaround build time (compared to 12 weeks for B3)
-automated sight level gauges
-automated burners/elements- pretty much impossible to have boilovers
-automated timing/brew schedule
-no worries about pilot lights on burners (B3 doesn't even come with pilot lights)
-the floating sparge system is pretty cool and prevents foaming in the MLT
-more capable of step infusion mashing if you want
-even a sprayer included to wash things off (powered by the pumps)
-"extremely" low profile design- 56" x 22" x 26"- especially for the volume (sits up on a table)
-more sectioned and easier to break down/move/ship

and for me,
-manufactured n the Hudson Valley an hour away from my house


Only things besides ingredients that this doesn't come with are a water filter and a wort chiller, which are options. Also, the temp logging box and PC software is an add on option, too, but only like $100.

The BM was always a little too pricey for me, so I never seriously considered it. I did consider buying a B3 and automating it at a later date. But for $3700, the semi-auto brewmation is as automated as a B3 or a Sabco and the full auto is even more automated beyond that. I am going to go to his shop and check it out in action before I buy, but I have already decided really.

I'm not affiliated with him, but just though you should check it out. Maybe you'll be as impressed as I am. Can't imagine either of the others being any more repeatable/consistent/reliable that this one and this one maybe even more so than them.

Also, nothing against a Sabco, but they sure have gotten a whole lot of mileage/free press out of breweries like Dog Fish Head using them for pilots. B3's are similarly utilized as pilots by equally illustrious breweries, so don't let that influence your decision too much towards the BM. It's just well played marketing.

I understand you want to buy the thing outright and be done with it....but for half the money you're going to spend at B3/SABCO, I guarantee you can find someone to weld together some square SS tubing and modify a few instawares pots for you. The designs are simple and the materials are readily available. You could spend the other $2500 on a complete fermentation setup, including conicals. Unsolicited advice I know, but $5500 is a lot of money....no matter how you look at it!

I don't want to take the wind out of your sails, but I have seen a Brewmation rig upclose and personal and while it is a nice rig it has some caveats of it's own. I do not like that it has to sit on a table. The table better be very strong becuase when it has wort and water in it is weighs alot. I believe it would be taller than the Brew Magic when put on a table. I also do not like the pumps. The Peristaltic Pumps are used to meter the fluids during the flow. They are made of plastic and I question their longevity at boiling temperatures. The Peristaltic Pumps are a great idea but thier implementation looks flimsy. Lastely the brewing vessels appear to be made of kitchen sink stainless steel material. It is denfinetly not the same guage stainless steel as a keggle or Mega Pot kettle. The Brewmation's big advantage for many brewers is that it is an electric brewery, but for some an electric brewery is not an advantage, especially if your home doesn't have enough electrical service to support an electric brewery. It is not a bad brewery but it is not without it's own caveats and not for everyone.

ScubaSteve said:

I guarantee you can find someone to weld together some square SS tubing and modify a few instawares pots for you.

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Thought I would go this route with single tier w/ tippy dump mechanism plans that I found here on the forums.


Got a quote for $1500 from a local TIG welder for just the stand fab with 1.5" 16th stainless tubing. Doh! Gave up on that one.

ScubaSteve said:

I understand you want to buy the thing outright and be done with it....but for half the money you're going to spend at B3/SABCO, I guarantee you can find someone to weld together some square SS tubing and modify a few instawares pots for you. The designs are simple and the materials are readily available. You could spend the other $2500 on a complete fermentation setup, including conicals. Unsolicited advice I know, but $5500 is a lot of money....no matter how you look at it!

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I remember times that I wished I had just bought a brewery while building mine. I built mine not because I couldn't afford a Brew Magic or B3 system but because I am an empty nester with some time to devote and I enjoy building things. If one doesn't have the time, know how and can afford it, more power to them to go out and buy a Brew Magic. He will be brewing immediately instead of trying to find a welder to help him out.

Thanks SDG-
I haven't seen one yet, so you bring up some good points.

1) I do like that it sits on a table. I can fab one from 2X4s and have a place underneath to store my malt mill, etc. I'll make sure it's heavy duty enough to hold 17 gal X 3. Besides, you don't have to put it on a table if you don't want to. If I put it on a table, I can gravity feed my wheeled conical which is 32" high. A brew magic looks only tall enough to gravity feed a carboy (right?) and you can't change that without using a pump. The brewmation is 26" high and the BK outlet valve is about 10" up from there, so long story short (hehe) I can have the brewmation kettles no taller than 4' high and still gravity feed my conical from the outlet. That's much shorter than a brewmagic which still needs a step stool to fill with grain.

2) I'll have to bring that up to him about the pumps and plastic- good point. I wonder though how long do march pumps last on average in comparison? Don't know. Maybe he's gotten some feedback and could change the pumps to silicone tubing? I'll ask.

3) Stainless kitchen sinks last forever (at least in my history) and that's with cleaning pots in them and banging them around. I'll check it out, but I don't know if I think that's a big issue considering that the heating elements are inside the kettles and you don't have to worry about scorching from a direct flame thru a thin all. Just take more care when cleaning not to bang them around. Wonder if the gauge stainless is any thinner than say a blichmann kettle? I know they're not so thick.

4) I have a 220 plug inside my apartment just hanging there waiting to be used by something.

I am still looking for someone who owns one on this board and was going to post the question soon before I buy. Thanks for your insight.

Questions for you:

Did you see the fully automated rig in action? All the vids are of the semi-auto. I wonder if it's worth $800 more. The full auto truly is set-it-and-forget-it brewing, but I just wonder how flexible the programming is for doing double batches, multiple step mash rests, and other tricks. The guy says he does side by side batches all the time, but I just have to check out the control box and fiddle with it.

Also, I wonder how the floating recirc and sparging compares to the swirling action that a BM recirc sees. Prob not too much an issue, but still a question.

Anyhoo, if it's full automation that you are after, you will spend much more money with a BM or a full B3 rig than the brewmation and I think that the brewmation is even more automated than they are. Also, to me, the brewmagic looks hard to clean with all that hard piping etc. But I don't have one so I don't really know.

Peace. I'll post when I go check it out myself.

Thanks for the input guys and I am taking all the points into consideration. I don't have the time to build working nights and having a job that is 75% travel. That is the main reason for my wanting to buy a built system. I am still bouncing back an forth and will think about it as my Rye IPA boils away right now.

SankePankey said:

Thanks SDG-
I haven't seen one yet, so you bring up some good points.

1) I do like that it sits on a table. I can fab one from 2X4s and have a place underneath to store my malt mill, etc. I'll make sure it's heavy duty enough to hold 17 gal X 3. Besides, you don't have to put it on a table if you don't want to. If I put it on a table, I can gravity feed my wheeled conical which is 32" high. A brew magic looks only tall enough to gravity feed a carboy (right?) and you can't change that without using a pump. The brewmation is 26" high and the BK outlet valve is about 10" up from there, so long story short (hehe) I can have the brewmation kettles no taller than 4' high and still gravity feed my conical from the outlet. That's much shorter than a brewmagic which still needs a step stool to fill with grain.

2) I'll have to bring that up to him about the pumps and plastic- good point. I wonder though how long do march pumps last on average in comparison? Don't know. Maybe he's gotten some feedback and could change the pumps to silicone tubing? I'll ask.

3) Stainless kitchen sinks last forever (at least in my history) and that's with cleaning pots in them and banging them around. I'll check it out, but I don't know if I think that's a big issue considering that the heating elements are inside the kettles and you don't have to worry about scorching from a direct flame thru a thin all. Just take more care when cleaning not to bang them around. Wonder if the gauge stainless is any thinner than say a blichmann kettle? I know they're not so thick.

4) I have a 220 plug inside my apartment just hanging there waiting to be used by something.

I am still looking for someone who owns one on this board and was going to post the question soon before I buy. Thanks for your insight.

Questions for you:

Did you see the fully automated rig in action? All the vids are of the semi-auto. I wonder if it's worth $800 more. The full auto truly is set-it-and-forget-it brewing, but I just wonder how flexible the programming is for doing double batches, multiple step mash rests, and other tricks. The guy says he does side by side batches all the time, but I just have to check out the control box and fiddle with it.

Also, I wonder how the floating recirc and sparging compares to the swirling action that a BM recirc sees. Prob not too much an issue, but still a question.

Anyhoo, if it's full automation that you are after, you will spend much more money with a BM or a full B3 rig than the brewmation and I think that the brewmation is even more automated than they are. Also, to me, the brewmagic looks hard to clean with all that hard piping etc. But I don't have one so I don't really know.

Peace. I'll post when I go check it out myself.

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I confess I did not see it being while brewing but I can say that the automation was explained to me and it seems to very good. As a matter of fact it seems that the automation is more robust than that of the Brew Magic System. As I said in my previous post, it's not a bad system and if you are looking for total automation and electric, it more than fits the bill. I just don't like it having to be put on a table. It adds unnecessary height and that is also a criticism I have of the Brew Magic and the B3. I use a Brew Magic Stand in my system and eventually will go with another, lower stand.

Augie said:

Thanks for the input guys and I am taking all the points into consideration. I don't have the time to build working nights and having a job that is 75% travel. That is the main reason for my wanting to buy a built system. I am still bouncing back an forth and will think about it as my Rye IPA boils away right now.

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I don't blame you one bit. If thats what you want I wish you the best of luck with whichever system you decide on.

Augie said:

Really its just shipping info, payment info, etc....

I am assuming you have one, any recommendations, tips, for a future owner?

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Sign up on the BM forum through the link on the Sabco site (bottom of page), and read, read, read.

Brew magic for sale on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brew-Magic-The-Remarkable-Beer-Brewing-Unit-by-Sabco_W0QQitemZ300392050757QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45f0c2f045

I was in the same position that you are back in June. I went with the B3-1550 (Full digital, IC with Whirlpool). At the time I ordered they had free shipping (My original quote was for $375 for shipping to NY, so I can't see how yours is 800).

I think B3 also has 10% off if you order in January (cutting it close).

While the savings between the fully loaded tippy dump and a brew-magic isn't a ton, it was enough that I was able to get a grain mill, and some extra carboys.

Either way I think you will be thrilled. I love my tippy dump and am just waiting for it to not be 5 degrees outside to start my spring brewing

Thanks for the link cowgo

rmullins said:

I was in the same position that you are back in June. I went with the B3-1550 (Full digital, IC with Whirlpool). At the time I ordered they had free shipping (My original quote was for $375 for shipping to NY, so I can't see how yours is 800).

I think B3 also has 10% off if you order in January (cutting it close).

While the savings between the fully loaded tippy dump and a brew-magic isn't a ton, it was enough that I was able to get a grain mill, and some extra carboys.

Either way I think you will be thrilled. I love my tippy dump and am just waiting for it to not be 5 degrees outside to start my spring brewing

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I know the shipping cost seemed really high to me and they quoted only an approx $100 saving if I shipped to a commercial address. I may have them verify the shipping

Mine shipped from Grand Rapids MI to NY. Residential Address with no liftgate so I don't know whats the deal with your quote being so high

Grand Rapids?? Wouldn't it come out of Cali? Grand Rapids is not far from here only a few hours

I was expecting Cali but when I got the UPS freight tracking number it was Grand Rapids MI

Augie said:

OK I am set on spending the cash on a system and can't weld, don't have time for the build, and want the easy route.

I can not decide between a Brew Magic system or the 1550 tippy dump with full digital from B3. The difference between the 2 are not much with shipping but I just cant decide. Anyone have any pro's and cons between them. I have searched, read and am still undecided. Thanks ahead of time

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'

The wonderful people at http://stainlesssteelspec.com quoted me this lovely unit for just a scosh under Eight Grand
http://s1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/zydaco/?action=view&current=BC-50.jpg

How does learning a few hand tool skills look now?

Honest to god, If I were in the market for a soup-to-nuts system that would be right at the top of my list.

There's a German house doing something similar for maybe a little more $$.

SankeyPankey,
I am in the same boat as you - have my eye on the brew magic and the B3 sculptures. I am fairy new to brewing (about a year) and has become a passion. I am doing AG with a make shift stand. I want a "real" brew stand and was looking more for a stand since I already have a nice heavy duty brew kettle and a keggle (my MLT is a cooler) - sort of upgrade. I can get the brew magic stand for under a grand. I thought the jump to the full Brew-Magic would be a little aggressive. I like the idea of gravity fed sparging, but don't want to be getting up and down a ladder - the Tippy is nice (but not gravity fed sparging). I wonder how fast the MLT fills with its height though.

I can afford a fully automated system - but still a tough pill to swallow! I don't think brewing is a phase for me, but nervous about going full throttle into a system. I do enjoy some minor DIY stuff, but time is a premium and it certainly isn't my forte'.

So when you posted about the brewmation I was very interested. I have the room for it, and also like the idea of it needed to be put on a table (I can easily and cheaply have a table made - the Amish do amazing work!) so I can store stuff underneath. I think I still have to warm up to brewing with electricity - it almost seems like cheating! It also doesn't have the typical brewery look. But what I love most about brewing is creating something, and not necessarily the equipment used. And to have a fully automated system that allows for great consistency and helps save on time is great. I also like not having to fill up on propane.

So I am really curious about the brewmation. Have you heard any reviews? I am very close to the Hudson Valley so would be easily able to pick it up. Any review would be great.

our systems do have lots of options, but they are all ones that lots of homebrewers have asked for over the years, and we feel that more options are better so you can have the system you want and not just the one we feel like selling you.

BrewMagic and our BrewSculptures will both make great beer. Plenty of homebrewers have brewed NHC winners on both systems, and neither one will pour gold out the boil kettle on their own without you knowing what you are doing. But they will make things easier for you to brew on, by having the kettles set up in a small footprint, quality equipment, great designs, etc. Those thing help in repeatability, which is the key for learning your system and how to brew great beer. If your SG varies from batch to batch, how can you take that next step and refine your processes?

And lots of commercial breweries use the BrewSculptures for pilot breweries - Rogue, Stone, Russian River, Hales Ales, US Davis, White Labs ...

Hard piping vs. tubing - I prefer the tubing, because you can see the condition of your lines and make sure it's clean. With the hard mounted stuff you can't, and just have to trust that they get clean.

Tri-Clover vs Ball Valve - tri-clovers are expensive and not really needed until the cold-side of your wort/beer.

Space - sure if you take the 1000 BrewScuplture (which is tall) and put it against the BrewMagic (which is flat) then yeah it's going to seem even taller. But due to our options we have flat systems as well as a compact system, the 1550. Options are good things

In response to the "pros v cons" post ... not sure where those came from, but there are a few incorrect things mentioned. The only metal that touches the wort is stainless steel, unless you recirculate, in which case the wort is pumped through the copper sparge arm. The "awkward" ball valve placement is kind of out of nowhere, since you can just turn the kettles and have the valves face any way you want. And Ive never had the tippy latch "sieze" on mine.

The kettles are really thick and very high quality - I'd put them up against kegs any day of the week. By no means are they thin.

Shipping is just what we are getting charged from UPS freight, we have no control over that.

I'd be happy to answer any questions you guys have about the BrewSculptures.

Thanks for the response Jason, I like the tippy dump system and have had several messages back and forth via e-mail and I understand that is what you are being charged for shipping and there is no control. Its just hard to swallow $800+ for shipping even if both systems come out almost equal in price with shipping. Still researching though....

Cool, glad to hear we are taking care of you. Let me know if I can help at all.

Free shipping???? LOL

Jipper said:

In response to the "pros v cons" post ... not sure where those came from, but there are a few incorrect things mentioned. The only metal that touches the wort is stainless steel, unless you recirculate, in which case the wort is pumped through the copper sparge arm. The "awkward" ball valve placement is kind of out of nowhere, since you can just turn the kettles and have the valves face any way you want. And Ive never had the tippy latch "sieze" on mine.

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On the B3 system I "interviewed" the HERMS coil was also copper. that said, on the BM I own, the RIMS chamber is also copper. New ones are all stainless. The only reason I consider this a "con" is by what you have mentioned with hoses. You just can't know the interior condition of the hard piping. I use heavy caustic cleaners for this which is why Stainless is a plus.

The valve I was referring to was the burner valve. My aplogies for not being clear.

And yes, with proper maintenance there is no resaon the tippy latch should sieze. But, if it does it's a PITA to free up.

None of this is meant to offend. And is just me own observations. The B3 is a solid system and worth every consideration. I just prefered the BM and still do despite it's flaws. And yes, it does have several too.

Augie said:

Free shipping???? LOL

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Now that is funny... :cross:

$800 is a conical or two :rockin: