Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

saq,

Thanks for this thread, this will be my next brew.

I cant seem to find the belgium syrup anywhere (all out of stock) but I can find the belgian candy sugar. Is it okay to sub sugar for syrup?

Sorry if this is a dumb question as I am sure it is.. but I havent used any invert sugars before in my brews and not really familiar with them.

The syrup is a key for the beer tasting the way it does, rocks/sugar have very poor flavor in comparison. If you don't use it you are on your own for figuring out how to make it taste the way you want.

Thanks, I wont brew it till I can get my hands on some syrup

You can order it online at a whole bunch of stores, its really common. Brewmasters Warehouse is where I got my last order from but I'm pretty sure you can also get it at Northern Brewer, Austin Homebrew Supply and others. I think both of my LHBS carry them now too.

All out of stock! I think I found a LHBS that is not so local to ship me some... thanks! I think this thread has started a shortage of Belgian Candi Syrup

The sugar that you say to add at three separate points during the boil in the traditional recipe. Is that corn/cane sugar or is that the Dark Candi syrup?

Also, according to beer calculus my OG is 1.092 as is with zero corn/cane sugar...just the 3# of Syrup and the extract. Should I stray away from adding any corn/cane sugar?

Its all dark candi syrup.

Cool.

x

Stuffs ordered. I went with no table sugar, all LME.

There is no table sugar in this beer or any variants posted in here and it is not mentioned anywhere in this thread. What is in this beer is dark candi syrup, 3lbs of it. Without the dark candi syrup you are not making anything approaching a Belgian Quadrupel, much less this particular beer.
Its like trying to make an Imperial IPA but taking out the hops, its just not going to work.

Thanks for the clarification, but yeah...that's what I meant. I just said it that way for clarification. Sorry for the confusion and for my confusion.

Now the question is about the schedule. Originally, you said one pound every once in a while. Later you said three pounds right after I turn the heat off. Which one?

I brewed this two weeks ago and had it wrapped in a space blanket during fermentation. The temp got 80+ and then naturally cooled as fermentation petered out. I tested SG today and got 1.042. I plan to put it next to the baseboard with the space blanket over the heater and the fermenter to heat the sucker up again. I am wondering why I wouldn;t have lower SG if I kept it warm - worried I'm stuck too high. Keeping my fingers crossed...

Any suggestions - seen this before? If I have to repitch, I would probably siphon out some yeast from the bottom, restart and then pitch - would that be a good idea?

Thanks.

Thanks for the recipes. Ill be getting myself an aquarium heater to try the old world version out.

Any suggestions for recipes to built up yeast for this beast?

Have you looked into the Westvleteren Blonde?

Regards

Get a stir plate and make a 2-3 liter starter. I did a new batch last weekend and did a 1.6 liter starter to try and get some more ester development.
I had the Westvleteren Blonde last week when I was in Belgium and it was pretty good but not really my thing. I have two bottles that I'll probably crack open before too long but I prefer the more traditional Belgian blonde like the Achel 8.

I just put it in the fermenter, but I only got an OG of 1.082. Would adding a little sugar do....or what?

saq I just want to say thanks for working so hard on this recipe. I just tapped mine and it is truly great. The second batch just moved wayyy up to the brew que.

FWIW I went the all grain route. I use 2 x D2 AND 1x D1, because thats what was available. My primary never got above 74 so I put it in my ferm chamber and let finish at 81. It was about 5 days in when I moved it and the gravity was half way there.

just curious what the aroma is like on this? I brewed this as a small 8 (1.062) and added about 1/2 lb. of aromatic malt. It is on the gas and about 1/2 way carbed. It cold conditioned for a long time. 5 -6 months or so.

I am trying to determine how good it is relative to yours. It tastes pretty clean up front with some funk in the middle (phenols I am guessing) with a good dry but slightly sweet finish. The aroma is not the most appealing, just a bit different. Does any of this sound close?

Saq, maybe I can send you a bottle when it gets carbed up and you can try it and see if it is close.

The aroma is rich and full of dark stone fruit (fig, date), some plum, burnt banana, cocoa, burnt sugar somewhat reminiscent of creme brulee, and belgian esters.
Lower gravity versions are going to have a less pronounced aroma but should be pretty similar.

MilwaukeeBrewGuy, all the high gravity belgians that I have brewed seem to take 6-12 weeks to get the "right" flavor. These are hot to begin with, but the flavors also largely come from the yeast itself and these yeast typically take a while to bed down and reabsorb some of the molecules that contribute to off flavors (or at least that is the way I think of it!) I bet that after a few weeks your beer will be close to the way you want it and the way saq describes it.

Hey saq, let me know if you'd be willing to let me ship you a bottle of my brew to tell me what you think. I ended up modifying it slightly to closer to a Westy 8.

i must say that I jumped the gun a bit. The beer wasn't fully carbed up. It is amazing what some time on the gas will do to a beer. Anyways, the phenolics have really mellowed in the 2 weeks on the gas.

I actually cold conditioned this for a long time. Probably 4-5 months or so.

victozamora-how did yours turn out? I also dropped mine down to an 8. What was your OG/FG?

Like saq said, with it being an 8 I don't get the real intense dark fruit flavors in mine (My OG was only about 1.062).

My OG was about 1.081, and it came out to JUST over 8% ABV. I haven't tried it yet, but apparently it was delicious. The guy that helped me brew it bottled it over break and tried it before bottling. Apparently, it was awesome. The Wort was awesome. He said it was definitely in the same style as Chimay, and he's got a pretty discerning palate so I believe him. However, I'm letting it bottle-condition until late December. I'll let you know then.

Well, guys, I cracked open a bottle last night...and it was really enjoyable. A little fruity, definite depth. It's definitely Belgian. I'm pretty proud of it, considering it was my first brew....but I don't know how it compares to a Westy.

Oh, 51 bottles came out....so I decided to try one (I got 26, my buddy got 25). Anyway, I decided to go ahead and try one while the other 25 sit in a closet for the next 6 weeks.

victorzamora said:

What do you mean by temperature control? I mean, I know the basic idea...but what would you recommend as minimum equipment to try and get as close to a Westy12 with an extract? If it requires someone that's obsessive, I'm the man for the job!

Haha, I know I must sound like an idiot. Westy12 is my first attempt to brew. I also want full Westy12 taste with no equipment AND from an extract. This isn't my first hobby, and I know I've been annoyed by people that sound like what I'm getting at.

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I did an extract version of this. I still ended up with a pretty massive grain bag, but it still fit in my 5 gallon pot. I sparged it in a smaller pot at the end. The final product was the best beer I've ever brewed. I'm sure the all-grain is far superior, but I'm really loving the finished product.

Everything is pretty much the same as the New World recipe, except this substitute:

11 lbs Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 71.4 %
instead of
13.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 74.71 %

...and I used 2 packs of the liquid yeast, because I'm lazy. It peaked at about 10 weeks.

What would you think about this beer aged a couple weeks in an oak bourbon barrel before the lagering?

Sounds yummy. Why before? Aging is aging.

Yeah true, I think Im gonna do 10 gallons of this this weekend and throw 5 into my barrel. Ill let you know in a few months what I think. I have a couple bottles of 12 I brought back this month to test beside.

For the New World version, the candi syrup goes into the boil? And if so at the beginning?

Well, if you read the thread you'll see saq talks about different addition times. Apparently he's started adding the syrup at the end of the boil, and the different addition times make for different flavors. Your choice, I guess. Maybe someone else could report on how the flavors are different.

saq, congratulations on the mounting awards! They are certainly well-earned.

Quick question; Jamil indicates in his pitching rate calc applet, (mrmalty.com), that for this gravity/volume a stir plate starter of 2.66L, (335 billion cells), is ideal. Since your recipe calls for a larger stir-plate starter of 3.8L I was wondering if you can comment on the higher versus lower pitching rate.

I pitch about 1.5L these days to get more yeast ester development. I also don't oxygenate which puts the yeast through a starved lag cycle which produces even more esters. I found my Belgian beers too clean before and with oxygen and high pitching rates so I've been moving in the other direction and its been working out well.

saq, that sounds in keeping with characteristics described in BLAM. Interesting direction toward cracking the Westy code.

I have a slightly modified Pious Traditional, (10lbs Ding-Pils 6lbs Ding-Pale), languishing in secondary now. I also under-pitched at 1.25L stir-plate under strict ramping temp control of 65-83F over 5 days. It seems like letting this rack for along period will create the best esters and phenols...

Saq, I am going to be brewing this recipe next chance I get, all I am waiting on is the Dark Candi Syrup to get back in stock at my LHBS. You are mentioning that you are making a smaller starter to get more of the esters. My question to you is this: are you doing this to get it more of what you see a Belgian being, or to make it closer to the Westvleteren 12?

I love the Westy and want to end up as close to it as possible, so trying to decide which way to go for the starter.

I do it because I like the outcome better. It does put it more in line with the real Westvleteren 12.
A man could work his whole life towards trying to make the ultimate quad and it would not be wasted.

Cool, I just wanted to make sure it was in the interest of getting closer to the real deal, and not making it towards a personal taste (I see cooking recipes completely morphed by this). Of your 2 recipes, you have the Old World that you prefer but scored lower, and I figured it was more to your taste but further from the real Westvleteren. But, as I have not tasted any of your brews, I am unable to make any real conclusions.

So after the 2 months conditioning and then the few weeks to carb up, do you need to age it longer in the bottle, or does a great deal of the aging occur during that 50F time? I know it gets better with time, but when would you say it starts to taste how it should? I am going to be moving soon, so trying to figure out my timing for all my brews that are coming up. Thanks for keeping this thread supported!

A thought, (or two), on adjunct sugars:

Candi syrups coming from Belgium originate in 'Belgium' as marked, however, are they coming from the Brouwerij Westvleteren (Vist-flay-tṙən)? My understanding was that the Trappist sugars for Westy 12 are made within Brouwerij Westvleteren. When we use D1/D2 in our W12 clone experiments are we using the genuine article?

After the initial aging period is over I keg it and start drinking it and bottle it if I feel like. It keeps getting better with age.
I'm still seeking out that perfect quad, Westvleteren 12 is more or less the top of the bunch if you ask me so I'm kind of heading in that direction.
These days I'm doing the grainbill more or less from the "new world" recipe, with 3lbs of D1 added after flameout. Do a larger sparge but still do a 90 min boil, but take about 1.5gal of the first runnings and boil it down until it starts to foam up and then add that into the kettle.

I did this on the last one and it came out tasting incredibly awesome but it finished at 1.017 which is too sweet, which I attribute to the 152 mash temp. I put some Orval and Allagash brett in it to get it to dry it out some and I'll probably add some of my brandy/french oak spiral tincture to it for some kind of Odell Saboteur spin.
I'm going to repeat that brew soon but do a lower mash temp.

Since_Uuz_Up said:

A thought, (or two), on adjunct sugars:

Candi syrups coming from Belgium originate in 'Belgian' as marked, however, are they coming from the Brouwerij Westvleteren (Vist-le-tṙən)? Based on comments from Heironomous and Jackson the Trappist sugars for Westy 12 appear to be made within Brouwerij Westvleteren rather than purchased outside. When we use D1/D2 in our W12 clone experiments are we using a close enough approximation for our syrups?

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Westvleteren (pronounced west vlay tren) did not tell Stan in Brew Like A Monk the source or treatment for the sugar they add to their brew. Considering they say they only use Belgian 2row and Pilsner malt they must be using some very darkly cooked sugar to get the color as dark as it is.

I got to visit Westvleteren when I went to Belgium on my honeymoon last October which was a really incredible experience even if you take all the beer aspects away.

Here is a picture I took of the cafe where you can get some good food and their beer.