Gross! Tannins anyone?

OK so I might have my first dumper. It's a beer I brewed about 5 weeks ago. Yeah, yeah i know... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/never-dump-your-beer-patience-virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/

But it really does taste like Satan's anus. I'm not sure if it is tannins or DMS or both...or neighter. There is no mold or infection but it just has this overwhelming really nasty hard to describe taste kinda like vomit.

First the recipe

:::10 gallons::::

Malts:
25# Pils
1# Wheat
1# Munich

Hops:
2.0 oz Warrior 60 minutes
1.5oz Saaz 30 minutes
1.5oz Saaz 10 minutes
1oz Saaz 1 min

Yeast:

Pacman

Brewing Notes:

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For this beer I did a decoction mash. I did a protein rest at 125 and a thick decoction. Brought decoction up to 155. Rested for 20 minutes and then boiled for 20 minutes. Returned decoction to main mash and mashed at about 150 degrees for 60 minutes. I batch sparged very slowly with near boiling water. Thermometer read 190 degrees during sparge.
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I am wondering if maybe I got some tannins from not doing the decoction correctly? Or maybe from sparging too hot? Or both? Also, there is lots of Pilsner malt and I only did a 60 minute boil so there might be some DMS?

Can anyone offer some advise as to what the hell happened here? Is it worth it to rack this and wait it out?

Yeah normally I sparge at 170. I blame this on the fact that I had a BBQ and was drinking all day and left the sparge water on the burner too long and then I was too lazy to cool it down before sparging...

Well, I think you'd be a fool to dump it without giving it time. I mean there are over 100 stories on there about waiting and letting bottle conditioning and time heal it.

You would be surprised the magic that can happen.

I've have plenty of beers that taste like grainy iced tea at 5 weeks, and was smooth as silk at 8 or more...

If you are tasting it in secondary especially.....

You have the info, the rest is your choice.

If you dump you have a 100% chance of not drinking it, if you save it now you have a 50% chance of it turning out drinkable, if not downright the best beer you have ever had.

I have had some damn nasty beers that I walked away from, and I STILL haven't had to dump one yet, no matter what I did to it.

OK Revvy. I took your advice. I racked to a secondary and am going to forget about it for several months and report back. This smelled so bad it almost triggered my gag reflex. I have a weak stomach from working at an IHOP as a teenager, but that's another story..

Ya, as others stated, sounds like the high temperature sparge is the problem.

Gelatin finings are very good at removing excess tannins from beer. After your beer hits terminal gravity, I recommend using two teaspoons (4x normal dosage) of unflavored gelatin dissolved in 170F water and cold crashing the batch (if possible).

If the gelatin doesn't save it, you're probably out of luck.

I'm not sure I buy the high temp theory. I sparge with 190ish (sometimes higher, somtimes lower) water to get the grain bed up to 168. Unless we're saying the mash was up to 190, and not the water you were sparging with. I guess that's where I'm not clear.

+1 on gelatin finings. It's a cheap way to try to save the batch, but 'smells like vomit' is more likely DMS.

michael.berta said:

OK Revvy. I took your advice. I racked to a secondary and am going to forget about it for several months and report back. This smelled so bad it almost triggered my gag reflex. I have a weak stomach from working at an IHOP as a teenager, but that's another story..

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Um, I think you have missed the point of the never dump your beer thread....secondary is not the place where it is going to "cure" it.

That's not where the people in my thread talk about.... needs to be bottled or kegged under pressure...In fact, sorry to say I don't believe there is anything wrong with your beer, except the. If you are judging a beer in primary, or secondary, you are really prematurely judging your beer.

I caution anyone to not make premature judgements about your beers UNTIL YOU HAVE FINISHIED THE ENTIRE PROCESS, all the way to bottle conditioned.....Then if after the three weeks minimum for normal grav beers, THEN you think about socking it away for weeks or months.....

Your beer has a huge journey to go through, it goes through a huge amount of biochemical transformations, and one of the most important is that little bit of fermentation that happens in the bottle.

Heck most of my all grain beers ALWAYS taste like Iced tea in primary, and many til 6 weeks in the bottles.....that's why judging a beer as being astringent or anything for that matter , is like calling the race over by judging the first horse to take off at the starting gun, not crossing the finish line.

Maybe Revvy has a point, but hoping that something that smells like "vomit" gets better is pretty optimistic. Beer does improve with conditioning, but something so foul it gags you isn't going to win any awards, no matter how long it's aged. I'd wait and see, but wouldn't bother bottling it if it's not much improved in a month. Why waste your time and energy on a probably dumper? That's what I'd do, anyway.

Maybe it's a lambic? I often gag when I taste those...




Just saying.

Perhaps he is mis diagnosing his beer...he uses the word Tannin twice...So I am going by that an assuming he has at least read the definition of what tannis are....

SO does the beer taste like Iced tea? Or bitter grains? Bitter (astringent)?, THAT is tannins....If it is something other than that, then it is not tannins.

The best pale ale I've ever brewed smelled and tasted like vomit after 2 weeks in the primary. I'm sure I pitched stressed yeast. It wasn't until after the yeast fell out and the beer cleared that it tasted better and then later delicious.

When you say you "batch sparged slowly", I'm confused. Fly sparging is something you'd do slowly. There really isn't a speed in batch sparging unless you mean that you left it sitting for a while. 190F on the sparge isn't all that bad and I doubt the overall mash hit over 175F.

It doesn't taste like tea or bitter grains; it tastes kinda like barf. I only have 4 corny kegs so I don't really have the option of kegging it for several months to see if it goes away; that's why I racked it to a secondary. I could definatly crash it with gelatin for several months and keg it down the road.

This might be a good exercise for me in how to disagnose and what to do with potentially troubled batches.

I batch sparged at approx 1 quart of wort per minute. Basically I lautered the first runnings into the boil kettle. Then added all the sparge water. Let it sit for a few minutes. Then drained it at a quart per minute.

I found this about getting rid of DMS (if that's actually what my problem is):

If you keg your beer, you can artificially scrub out DMS using CO2. This is best done before carbonating. If you have a lager, allow it to warm to room temperature first. Then, switch around the ball-lock fittings on your keg so they are backwards. Hook up the long dip tube (labeled "out") to the CO2 tank. Prop open the pressure relief valve. Then carefully allow CO2 to bubble through the beer. Slow down if it starts to foam out. Occasionally sniff the gas as it exits the keg. You should be able to smell the DMS at first, and then notice it fading with time. After the level has dropped, switch the ball locks back to their usual configuration. Then carbonate as usual.

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Anyone tried this? Or is some RDWAHAHB in order...

michael.berta said:

I batch sparged very slowly with near boiling water. Thermometer read 190 degrees during sparge.

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Kilted Brewer said:

I'm not sure I buy the high temp theory. I sparge with 190ish (sometimes higher, somtimes lower) water to get the grain bed up to 168. Unless we're saying the mash was up to 190, and not the water you were sparging with. I guess that's where I'm not clear.

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Slow sparge, near boiling, looks like it was the bed temp at 190 during sparge? That would do it.

michael.berta said:

It doesn't taste like tea or bitter grains; it tastes kinda like barf.

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Well, that does not sound like tannins. Leave it alone and see of it clears up, but I've never had a beer that tasted like vomit get better.

Just to update this thread. I ended up dumping this around November 1st. It still tasted like vomit..

Thanks for closing the loop, Michael.

I'm guessing it was a lactobacillus infection. Lactobacillus sometimes smells like a cross between vomit and crap.

wetherel said:

I'm guessing it was a lactobacillus infection. Lactobacillus sometimes smells like a cross between vomit and crap.

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Nice!!!!!!