Gelatin vs cold crash

I've always just cold crashed and never used gelatin because I've heard gelatin strips some flavors from the beer. What's your opinion on this?
Has anyone experienced ill effects of using gelatin?

I rarely use gelatin just because I'm lazy but I used to use it all the time. It will certainly speed up how long it takes for the beer to become clear but it will get just as clear by just waiting. I never used it on IPAs because I did feel it stripped some of the hop flavor.

See:
http://brulosophy.com/2015/01/05/the-gelatin-effect-exbeeriment-results/

I believe I lose some hop character from the beers I crash and add gelatin to.

After primary I drop the temp as low as I can (varies between mid 50's and low 30's depending on fermenter size). Then I fine with gelatin and wait 24-48 hours, then keg. I do this with all of my beers; pale ales, belgians, kolsch, double and triple IPA's.

Interesting question - does gelatin leave extra residue or some sort of thick sludge at the bottom of the fermentor? With my setup, I bottle right from primary, and while I already tilt it so the trub collects more at the back, I wouldn't want any more stuff to have to avoid getting into my bottles. I see where Marshall Schott (and I am sure many of you) leaves an inch of beer in the primary when racking out, but I can't do that - even in my little LBK, an inch of beer is at least a bottle, and I struggle to get a full case (24) of 12oz bottles as it is.

I guess I am trying to say, I am interested in using gelatin, but don't want to screw up anything I already have going.

The trub layer looks a little more "chunky" when I use gelatin (which is every batch these days). I don't have any trouble racking clear beer off of that layer. It really isn't any different than racking without it.

For reference I rack from primary (dry hop in primary if I'm dry hopping) to bottling bucket and into bottles. Or directly from primary into kegs depending on what I'm doing with the beer.

Thanks! I guess to be sure, I will just have to try it on a batch and see.

Dixon9717 said:

I've always just cold crashed and never used gelatin because I've heard gelatin strips some flavors from the beer. What's your opinion on this?
Has anyone experienced ill effects of using gelatin?

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I'd put the flavor loss in the beer mythology category. If you do use gelatin chilling the beer well beforehand is pretty much a requirement. One of the things gelatine will help floc out of the beer is chill haze but you have to create it first for the gelatin to do its thing. If you feel, as some do, that gelatin reduces the hops a bit then add a little extra hop to the next batch.

Gelatin is super awesome. I'm going to start using it on every batch just like Schott. Works wonders. You might want to reintroduce racking to your process though, if you'd previously given up on racking to secondaries, as it will keep the goo out of your bottles or kegs.

BigEd said:

I'd put the flavor loss in the beer mythology category. If you do use gelatin chilling the beer well beforehand is pretty much a requirement. One of the things gelatine will help floc out of the beer is chill haze but you have to create it first for the gelatin to do its thing. If you feel, as some do, that gelatin reduces the hops a bit then add a little extra hop to the next batch.

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If gelatin is used in an IPA where there is a heavy presence of haze forming desirable hop-oils they will be removed with great effect.

No myth. Just simple fact. The oils in suspension cause haze (to style and not a flaw). Removing them removes the haze and any flavor or aroma they would otherwise have imparted. It's just preference as to what you want. Personally I'm happy to sacrifice some hop oils for clarity, others are not.

It's not a case of being able to have your cake and eat it too in that instance.

I cold crash all my beers and use gelatin on the vast majority. I want clear beer, even IPA's.

dmtaylor said:

You might want to reintroduce racking to your process though, if you'd previously given up on racking to secondaries, as it will keep the goo out of your bottles or kegs.

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Nope. Not a valid reason to use a secondary vessel. Careful racking and ample time/cool temperatures to allow settling of particulate will suffice.

Primary Only Beer

I use it sporadically based on style. For example, I dont cold crash or use Gelatin on wheats. I will cold crash and not use gelatin on IPAs, and use both cold crash as well as gelatin on lighter beers (lagers etc).

I would suggest that those who claim to lose hop flavor and aroma to do side by side test for yourself with brews that are brewed very near each other. That's the only way to find out for yourself if it makes a difference.

I always cold crash, and I use gelatin if I need the beer to be finished clearing fairly quickly. Otherwise, I likely have the time to just let it cold crash a bit longer.

Gavin C said:

Nope. Not a valid reason to use a secondary vessel. Careful racking and ample time/cool temperatures to allow settling of particulate will suffice.

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I've experienced gelatinous goo in a sufficient number of secondaried/tertiaried/quaternaried batches of brew now (3 or 4) that I think an extra step in between gelatin and bottling/kegging is not such a bad idea if it will prevent recurrence. Keep in mind that a small amount of the gelatin actually floats and/or remains suspended in the beer, even if aged for a good couple of months as I have done, so an extra step will get more of this out.

dmtaylor said:

I've experienced gelatinous goo in a sufficient number of secondaried/tertiaried/quaternaried batches of brew now (3 or 4) that I think an extra step in between gelatin and bottling/kegging is not such a bad idea if it will prevent recurrence. Keep in mind that a small amount of the gelatin actually floats and/or remains suspended in the beer, even if aged for a good couple of months as I have done, so an extra step will get more of this out.

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Why would it get more of it to drop out?

dmtaylor said:

Keep in mind that a small amount of the gelatin actually floats and/or remains suspended in the beer, even if aged for a good couple of months as I have done, so an extra step will get more of this out.

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No it does not in my experience remain suspended or floating. That would sort of defeat its entire purpose.

This sounds more like an error in your method of gelatin prep to me.

Also as a side note there is no such thing as a tertiary or quaternary vessel. There may be multiple rackings from secondary to secondary however.

Primary-secondary-secondary-secondary.......-secondary- final packaging.

You're all right, I'm all wrong. God I love these interwebs.

Happy brewing.

joshesmusica said:

I would suggest that those who claim to lose hop flavor and aroma to do side by side test for yourself with brews that are brewed very near each other. That's the only way to find out for yourself if it makes a difference.

I always cold crash, and I use gelatin if I need the beer to be finished clearing fairly quickly. Otherwise, I likely have the time to just let it cold crash a bit longer.

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Yep, I do double brew sessions. I feel it is a trade off between aesthetics and aroma, the ones I crash and add gelatin to, I'll try to amp up the late additions to compensate.

dmtaylor said:

You're all right, I'm all wrong. God I love these interwebs.

Happy brewing.

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I believe you but it seems that you are an outlier case regarding this? How much are you putting in? 1 teaspoon is the norm as far as I know.

Gavin C said:

Nope. Not a valid reason to use a secondary vessel. Careful racking and ample time/cool temperatures to allow settling of particulate will suffice.

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Nice clarity Gavin.

If you take the time to do a good cold crash (I do 5-7 days at 35*F) and are decently careful with the siphon, gelatin doesn't gain you much more clarity, if any. The crash also helps to firm up the yeast cake and effectively eliminates the need to rack over into a secondary if the only reason is to clean up cloudy/gunky beer.

If the added gelatin is visible and floating, the water it was dissolved in was too hot.

Thanks for all the input. Since I usually cold crash at 35*-40* for 3-7 days depending how quick I need it done doesn't sound like gelatin is really a benefit for me. One more question though.
If gelatin is used in primary how would that affect harvesting the yeast?

dmtaylor said:

You're all right, I'm all wrong. God I love these interwebs.

Happy brewing.

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Nobody's trying to win a right/wrong contest. I simply asked why you think racking it multiple times would work over just letting it sit.

Although I have to concur with Gavin, that if your gelatin is floating, it's possible you didn't constitute it correctly.

TheBigLebrewsk1 said:

Yep, I do double brew sessions. I feel it is a trade off between aesthetics and aroma, the ones I crash and add gelatin to, I'll try to amp up the late additions to compensate.

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I completely understand where you're coming from. But that highlighted word is a major problem for me in coming to a conclusion.

Dixon9717 said:

Thanks for all the input. Since I usually cold crash at 35*-40* for 3-7 days depending how quick I need it done doesn't sound like gelatin is really a benefit for me. One more question though.
If gelatin is used in primary how would that affect harvesting the yeast?

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If you're only able to cold crash for 3-4 days, I absolutely believe and can attest to gelatin working. If you can cold crash for a week or even longer, then, as I said before, I don't see any need to add it.

If you're wanting to harvest the yeast from the bottom, I would say it's also not a good idea to use gelatin. It will make it much harder at least to try to scrape the gelatin from the yeast and doing it that way. At that point, you're likely risking an infection.

slym2none said:

Interesting question - does gelatin leave extra residue or some sort of thick sludge at the bottom of the fermentor? With my setup, I bottle right from primary, and while I already tilt it so the trub collects more at the back, I wouldn't want any more stuff to have to avoid getting into my bottles. I see where Marshall Schott (and I am sure many of you) leaves an inch of beer in the primary when racking out, but I can't do that - even in my little LBK, an inch of beer is at least a bottle, and I struggle to get a full case (24) of 12oz bottles as it is.

I guess I am trying to say, I am interested in using gelatin, but don't want to screw up anything I already have going.

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I meant to respond to this last night, but forgot.

I would suggest investing in a bottling bucket as your next piece of equipment. I always rack pretty much to the bottom. I tilt the bucket, and once I see that it's starting to pull up some of the trub, I stop. It's not even a full-bottle's worth that's left. Also you have the added benefit of being assured the sugar is mixed in properly, and not having to fill every single bottle with sugar. Also, the amount of time that it takes to bottle nearly 5 gallons makes it so that any trub you do accidentally pick up, will likely have time to settle back out if you've cold crashed.

But if you're thinking you'll lose too much, the 12oz bottle you mentioned, why not just brew the batch with that in mind?

joshesmusica said:

I completely understand where you're coming from. But that highlighted word is a major problem for me in coming to a conclusion.

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Absolutely, it is only my opinion based on my experience. One must find his own truth, young Jedi.

joshesmusica said:

If you're only able to cold crash for 3-4 days, I absolutely believe and can attest to gelatin working. If you can cold crash for a week or even longer, then, as I said before, I don't see any need to add it.



If you're wanting to harvest the yeast from the bottom, I would say it's also not a good idea to use gelatin. It will make it much harder at least to try to scrape the gelatin from the yeast and doing it that way. At that point, you're likely risking an infection.

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Thanks for the "clarification"

joshesmusica said:

I would suggest that those who claim to lose hop flavor and aroma to do side by side test for yourself with brews that are brewed very near each other. That's the only way to find out for yourself if it makes a difference.

I always cold crash, and I use gelatin if I need the beer to be finished clearing fairly quickly. Otherwise, I likely have the time to just let it cold crash a bit longer.

Click to expand...

Have you done any side by side experiments to prove that there isn't a loss of flavor or aroma?

Gavin C said:

Also as a side note there is no such thing as a tertiary or quaternary vessel. There may be multiple rackings from secondary to secondary however.

Primary-secondary-secondary-secondary.......-secondary- final packaging.

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While the terminology is admittedly ambiguous and contentious, I don't think anyone actually uses the terms as you've described, Gavin. Indeed, the term "secondary" itself is misleading, as it is short for "secondary fermentation," and of course there is no actual fermentation occurring at that point in the process. It is merely a conditioning step, or sometimes dry hopping. Big breweries call them "Brite tanks" because it is used to allow the beer to clarify ("drop brite"), while simultaneously carbonating.

Nevertheless, if one insisted on referring to the conditioning vessel as the "secondary" vessel, it would indeed make sense to refer to any subsequent transfers in kind. i.e, the tertiary vessel, quaternary vessel, etc., regardless of the futility and pointlessness of such transfers.

joshesmusica said:

If you're only able to cold crash for 3-4 days, I absolutely believe and can attest to gelatin working. If you can cold crash for a week or even longer, then, as I said before, I don't see any need to add it.

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I disagree. I've kegged beers in the past where even after 2 weeks of sitting undisturbed in a keg at 32° F, it was still hazy. I purged the keg, popped the lid, added some gelatin (properly prepared, obviously), and 2 days later, the beer was crystal-clear.

I think it probably depends very heavily on what's causing the haze. Certain compounds will drop out on their own relatively quickly, while others will remain stubbornly in suspension, unless dragged down kicking and screaming by gelatin.

joshesmusica said:

If you're wanting to harvest the yeast from the bottom, I would say it's also not a good idea to use gelatin. It will make it much harder at least to try to scrape the gelatin from the yeast and doing it that way. At that point, you're likely risking an infection.

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What on Earth are you talking about? Scraping gelatin from yeast? Infection? How much gelatin are you using?

I use a half-teaspoon in a 5 gallon batch. This amounts to virtually nothing on the bottom of the fermenter. I've successfully repitched yeast recovered from gelatin-ed batches multiple times. There's no "scraping" involved, and certainly no increased risk of infection. The gelatin does not impede the yeast from getting back to work, largely because there's not enough of it (1/2 teaspoon vs roughly 500 mL of yeast?) to make a difference.

kombat said:

While the terminology is admittedly ambiguous and contentious, I don't think anyone actually uses the terms as you've described, Gavin. Indeed, the term "secondary" itself is misleading, as it is short for "secondary fermentation," and of course there is no actual fermentation occurring at that point in the process. It is merely a conditioning step, or sometimes dry hopping. Big breweries call them "Brite tanks" because it is used to allow the beer to clarify ("drop brite"), while simultaneously carbonating.

Nevertheless, if one insisted on referring to the conditioning vessel as the "secondary" vessel, it would indeed make sense to refer to any subsequent transfers in kind. i.e, the tertiary vessel, quaternary vessel, etc., regardless of the futility and pointlessness of such transfers.

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In wine and cider making multiple rackings are common on the homebrew scale. This is where the terminology I mentioned is most valid, although it applies to any homebrew venture where the brewer uses multiple rackings.

On the commercial scale I completely agree, different terms for different kit. Primary to bright-tank being so common as to be almost ubiquitous.

Gavin C said:

In wine and cider making multiple rackings are common on the homebrew scale. This is where the terminology I mentioned is most valid, although it applies to any homebrew venture where the brewer uses multiple rackings.

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I'll confess I use gelatin for my ciders more than anything else. I'll also confess that I've probably been using too much. I see here that some folks are using as little as a half teaspoon in 5 gallons. Personally I'd be using a whole tablespoon in 5. So this might explain some of the gloop I've experienced, especially in my ciders, which I swear to you have a thin skin of bubbly jello on top before racking to tertiary or quaternary.

The laid back lazy man's method works well for me, just letting time, temperature and gravity clear my beers. Occasionally gelatin gives me an extra option to speed things up, like when I'm in a hurry to get the beer looking clear fast. Or for clearing the Kolsch beer I've recently kegged, so that it pours squeaky clean, as the style guidelines suggest.

This might be of use to anyone stumbing on this thread.

I use gelatin on most of my light colored beers when I keg them. Below is a photo of a recent batch of Munich Helles fermented with Wyeast#2308. I dropped the trub before fermentation began & dropped the yeast when it got close to final gravity. I cold crashed for 5days then added gelatin. I could/should have crashed for longer period, but needed the vessel for next batch. This was the first time I added gelatin to my conical. I liked the results. There was certainly more yeast in there that I thought, but then again I did rush it.

I always use gelatin and cold crash. However, I've got a couple of batches now that I've split in order to do a controlled gelatin test. Both batches had exactly the same hops / dryhops. All of them are in kegs now, carbonating, and I should be able to do a aroma test in a week or two. I'll take pics and post here (if I remember )

5g Pale Ale w/gelatin, 5g Pale ale without
5g Dark Rye Pale Ale w/gelatin, 5g Dark Rye Pale ale without

ShizuokaBrad said:

Have you done any side by side experiments to prove that there isn't a loss of flavor or aroma?

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I haven't personally, no. Not set up to do that just yet.

Check out the brulosophy link above if you're interested.

Higher amounts of gelatin does remove hop oils and therefore reduces hop character. The same is true for filtration. This has been proven via gas chromatography/mass spec. That said, what really matters is the usage rate. It depends on your individual brewing process and wort protein levels, but a safe amount is around 8-10ppm. Same with biofine.

helibrewer said:

After primary I drop the temp as low as I can (varies between mid 50's and low 30's depending on fermenter size). Then I fine with gelatin and wait 24-48 hours, then keg. I do this with all of my beers; pale ales, belgians, kolsch, double and triple IPA's.

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Do you transfer between stages

Hey @passedpawn, did you ever reach a conclusion on this experiment of yours?

Cheers!

passedpawn said:

I always use gelatin and cold crash. However, I've got a couple of batches now that I've split in order to do a controlled gelatin test. Both batches had exactly the same hops / dryhops. All of them are in kegs now, carbonating, and I should be able to do a aroma test in a week or two. I'll take pics and post here (if I remember )

Click to expand...