AG'ers: Do you freeze wort for starters?

All-Grain brewers -- do you freezer your wort and store it for your starters? I got into a discussion with someone last night and they think that there are few AG brewers who DONT do this. I think the exact opposite -- there are way more that make starters from extract or from "live", recently cooled wort (NOT previously frozen).

Please vote, I'd like to get an idea just out of curiosity.

No way. The bags leak and you end up with a sticky mess in the freezer. Ask me how I know... If you want to save wort get a pressure cooker w/ a 15# weight and can it. Then you can store them in your cupboard.

i do occasionally.....never had a problem so far.....

Zamial said:

No way. The bags leak and you end up with a sticky mess in the freezer. Ask me how I know... If you want to save wort get a pressure cooker w/ a 15# weight and can it. Then you can store them in your cupboard.

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Interesting. Also, what do you mean the BAGS leak? You were thinking I meant store wort in bags? Honestly, that was never what I meant. I'm guessing the guy I was debating with meant storing in a borosilicate flask or other hard storage structure.

But yeah.....BAGS......yikes.

fpweeks said:

i do occasionally.....never had a problem so far.....

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Gotcha. Yeah I'm sure it's safe if you take precautions and make sure it's really sealed, but it's just.......weird, if you ask me. So when this guy told me that I'd be hard pressed to find an AG brewer who doesn't, I immediately disagreed, strongly. I'm sure it works out fine for him, and for you, but it just seems really strange, and I don't personally think that many people do it. So far my poll verifies that opinion, but we're 5 mins in so we'll see.

I don't freeze wort, doesn't make sense to do so. I make a batch of starter wort a week even if I'm not brewing. I just can it and put it in the fridge.

Pressure canning...best method.

yep, just pop it in an old pepsi bottle and freeze till needed.

Am I the only dummy that makes a starter from DME, boils, cools and pitches yeast each time? The whole process takes, maybe 20 minutes depending on how long it takes to get to pitching temperature. And at $13.50 for a 3 lb bag of DME we are talking $0.28 an ounce. So, a $1 to $2 per starter and not having to have canned/bagged wort stashed throughout the house is fine with me.

What are the 'best practice' methods for storing/making starters in advance?

What I've been doing to great effect is planning for extra wort, maybe a half gallon or so, and collecting that in Ball jars instead of putting in the fermenter. Then, while I'm cooling, cleaning, etc., I put the jars in a pot of water, with enough water to cover them. I make sure they get a full boil for 15 minutes, take them out to cool (canning tongs are very helpful), and boom--sterilized wort, ready for my next starter. Starters should have a gravity of about 1.045, so if you are making a higher gravity wort, dilute in the jars before boiling.

RmikeVT said:

Am I the only dummy that makes a starter from DME, boils, cools and pitches yeast each time? The whole process takes, maybe 20 minutes depending on how long it takes to get to pitching temperature. And at $13.50 for a 3 lb bag we are talking $0.28 an ounce. So, a $1 to $2 per starter and not having to have canned/bagged wort stashed throughout the house is fine with me.

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I used to do it that way and I'm sure that's how most still do. I found it to be a major PITA, though, so I have moved on to pressure canning. I found that often during the week I just wasn't in the mood to deal with boiling and cooling wort after working all day (I'm kind of lazy that way), even though as you stated, it only takes about 20 minutes or so. It's much easier for me to pop open a jar of wort and just toss it in. Takes all of about 2 minutes. I'll never go back to the old way.

Did it once. Made a mess, took up freezer space that is better utilized by hops nestar: , and didn't save me anytime. It may have saved me a couple of bucks, but my time is worth more than that to me. I know some love doing it. To each his own, but I voted NO. I see pressure canning maybe saving time while making the starter, but how much time is used canning the wort?

Hammy71 said:

I see pressure canning maybe saving time while making the starter, but how much time is used canning the wort?

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Not much, really. My usual batch is 12 quart jars and 12 pint jars. Maybe 30 minutes to weigh out the DME and add water. Takes 3 loads in the pressure canner, each of which take about an hour from flame on to flame off and another hour or so to cool. The main advantage for me is that I can batch my time at the canning process so that I don't have to spend time later when I need to get a starter going, and the total time spent canning is less than the combined time of having to boil and cool wort for individual starters.

has anyone used the final runnings off of their sparge? I am a noob at starter batches for yeast and I currently use DME but now my mind is churning, If I used the final runnings off of my Tun wouldn't that be a low gravity starter? So even if i am doing a high gravity beer I could just use the final runnings which should be a low gravity. I am going to try this now. Would there be any advantage to using the same sweet wort in a starter as you used in a beer, ie keep that sweet wort for next time you brew that beer? From reading up on starters they are not supposed to affect the beer taste just wondering if there is any advantage. If there is no taste difference then I would imagine it would be better to use dme because you could produce an exact same starter with no flavor at all? Again I am a noob to this so I have no idea

72Chevelle said:

has anyone used the final runnings off of their sparge?

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What you are describing is perfectly fine and a great alternative. The main issue is the time lapse between saving your wort and making your starter. A week or two in the fridge would be okay, but longer than that and you need to be concerned about bacteria growth.

LLBeanJ said:

Not much, really. My usual batch is 12 quart jars and 12 pint jars. Maybe 30 minutes to weigh out the DME and add water. Takes 3 loads in the pressure canner, each of which take about an hour from flame on to flame off and another hour or so to cool. The main advantage for me is that I can batch my time at the canning process so that I don't have to spend time later when I need to get a starter going, and the total time spent canning is less than the combined time of having to boil and cool wort for individual starters.

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15 psi in the pressure cooker for how long? And I would imagine very little headspace left in tear after filling? Like 1/4 of an inch?

I can a lot of stuff, so this sounds like a great alternative to boiling each time I need a starter. I should be able to use the final rubbings from a sparge and then top off with dme I'd the gravity is too low, correct?

Would the canning pasteurize the wort if you just used the final running? Or would it still need to be boiled?

15 minutes @ 15 PSI.

I fill pint jars with 40 grams DME and 350 ml water. Quart jars are 80 grams DME and 750 ml water. My fridge has an auto fill water dispenser, so it's just a matter of entering the fill amount and pushing the dispense button to get a consistent fill from jar to jar, which saves time over manually measuring and filling, though I'm sure that once you've measured one, you could just eyeball the fill level on the rest.

I would think it would be perfectly fine to add DME to your final runnings if you need to bring the gravity up some.

MotorcycleMatt said:

Would the canning pasteurize the wort if you just used the final running? Or would it still need to be boiled?

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No boil needed. When I can with DME, I just add the DME to the jar, fill with the water and proceed to can, as the canning process will kill the nasties. Using wort from the mash would be no different.

I don't know anyone who freezes, but some who can. I do neither, generally use slurries and then if it's not in my library I will do a starter with dry extract.

nickmv said:

All-Grain brewers -- do you freezer your wort and store it for your starters?

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No, but I freeze second runnings and spent grain for bread making.

LLBeanJ said:

I used to do it that way and I'm sure that's how most still do. I found it to be a major PITA, though, so I have moved on to pressure canning. I found that often during the week I just wasn't in the mood to deal with boiling and cooling wort after working all day (I'm kind of lazy that way), even though as you stated, it only takes about 20 minutes or so. It's much easier for me to pop open a jar of wort and just toss it in. Takes all of about 2 minutes. I'll never go back to the old way.

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Same here. I have never tried freezing wort for use as starter. But I did just recently buy a pressure cooker, and although it is only an 8 quart model I really like being able to can 3 quarts of starter wort that can sit on the shelf. I add 3 oz (by weight) of DME to 1 quart of filtered water and then pressure cook at 15 psi for 15 minutes.

I do like the idea of pressure cooking sparge runoff but that would require that I do it relatively quickly after my brew session. And quite frankly I am usually beat and tired after a brew day. So I use DME. If I had a bigger pressure canner I would probably think about during a couple gallon batch of all-grain wort just for starters every once in awhile.

kpr121 said:

If I had a bigger pressure canner I would probably think about during a couple gallon batch of all-grain wort just for starters every once in awhile.

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I did this once. Never again. I think it took me about 3 hours to get the wort by the time I got all set up, mashed, and cleaned and put everything away everything, that it just wasn't worth all the effort to save what amounted to about $5 in DME. And that was without the cost of propane to heat the mash water figured in. So, I'd say best case is that I saved about $3 and wasted 3 hours doing it.

Do yourself a favor and stick with DME. Even if you added it on to your normal brew day, I'm not sure it would be economically feasible unless it was strictly 2nd or 3rd runnings.

I can my wort. It's just too easy.

LLBeanJ said:

I did this once. Never again. I think it took me about 3 hours to get the wort by the time I got all set up, mashed, and cleaned and put everything away everything, that it just wasn't worth all the effort to save what amounted to about $5 in DME. And that was without the cost of propane to heat the mash water figured in. So, I'd say best case is that I saved about $3 and wasted 3 hours doing it.

Do yourself a favor and stick with DME. Even if you added it on to your normal brew day, I'm not sure it would be economically feasible unless it was strictly 2nd or 3rd runnings.

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I was thinking it would be something to do when I didn’t have time for a full brew day but wanted to scratch the brewing itch. Since I buy grain in bulk sometimes I just want to burn through the last of a sack. And I have an all electric setup so it wouldn’t be as expensive as using propane. I would think it would only take me 2 hours tops.

But yea, DME is still way easier and I probably won’t ever actually do a starter only mash.

kpr121 said:

I was thinking it would be something to do when I didn’t have time for a full brew day but wanted to scratch the brewing itch.

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Hey, that's cool. Do whatever makes you happy.

I did it to save a few bucks and to get away from extract, but quickly figured out that my logic was somewhat misplaced.

I will occasionally take my final runnings let it cool, fill a gallon size ziplock bag and throw it in the freezer. Then when I need a starter I boil it down a bit and pitch yeast......

The cheap in me made me do it......but it's probably not worth the chance if a disaster in my freezer!

Light DME. I make a 1600ml starter with 1/2 pound of light DME for every batch. The flavor contribution for 6 gallons is negligible if even present at all. Takes all but 30-45 minutes to have it on the stir plate.

E-Mursed said:

Pressure canning...best method.

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+1 pressure can and then store in pantry.

Call me lazy, I keep a bag of DME in the Cupboard for starters.

AFTER my mash out at 168F and I am waiting for my boil to start, I throw in some ice cubes and cold tap water that I treated with a camden tab. I let this sit for 60minutes or longer, drain and boil it for 15 minutes or until my gravity is at 1.030. Then chill that so I do not get all the crud in the canning process. Bring free starter wort inside and can it after the yeast pitch. I do not always do this but like to when I can.

Yes, I brew 10 lbs of 2-row to 1.040, bag it up into 1 litre portions, and freeze it in plastic bins so they make nice square bricks.
This is WAY cheaper than buying DME all the time, and a lot more convenient.
Then when I'm ready, I pull out what I need, thaw and boil it, then cool to pitching temp.

acidrain said:

Yes, I brew 10 lbs of 2-row to 1.040, bag it up into 1 litre portions, and freeze it in plastic bins so they make nice square bricks.
This is WAY cheaper than buying DME all the time, and a lot more convenient.
Then when I'm ready, I pull out what I need, thaw and boil it, then cool to pitching temp.

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If I end up ever freezing my wort, this is how I would do it.

RmikeVT said:

Am I the only dummy that makes a starter from DME, boils, cools and pitches yeast each time? The whole process takes, maybe 20 minutes depending on how long it takes to get to pitching temperature. And at $13.50 for a 3 lb bag of DME we are talking $0.28 an ounce. So, a $1 to $2 per starter and not having to have canned/bagged wort stashed throughout the house is fine with me.

What are the 'best practice' methods for storing/making starters in advance?

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I usually freeze wort for starters, just out of wort that was left behind in the MLT during a fly sparge. I boil it while I start my wort boiling, then cool it and store it in a tupperware pitcher that I have. It holds 2 quarts. It's pretty easy to have 1.030-1.035 just by boiling it.

When I go to use it for a starter, I just boil it for a minute and then cool and pitch my yeast.

It's not really that much of a time or money savings, but it means that I don't have to worry about keeping DME on hand.

I just scale one of my house lager recipes up a few gallons and collect the wort in mason jars pre boil. I have a table top burner and a 16 quart pressure canner on my brew system I use to can the jars while I'm boiling the rest of the batch. No extra time and no special brew session for starter wort. I just started doing it this way and has saved allot of time.

I just started freezing wort. I was sitting there one day watching all my second runnings run down my driveway, and decided I could save those for starters. I just run off into ball jars and freeze those. So far its worked pretty well.

Call me lazy, but I collect and freeze the leftover second runnings in a tall, skinny Tupperware container. Save it from one brew, use it on the next beer's starter.

Boom, done, over.

AmandaK said:

Call me lazy, but I collect and freeze the leftover second runnings in a tall, skinny Tupperware container. Save it from one brew, use it on the next beer's starter.

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ditto except I no chill -- so I boil, cool and pitch the second runnings wort as a final top off for my yeast starter. I decant, add this, throw it on stir plate and pitch next day.

I collect some extra final runnings into PET juice or soda bottles and throw em right into the freezer. Unthaw and boil for 15-20 mins when making starters. This has worked real well, one less thing to worry about buying/having on hand!

nickmv said:

All-Grain brewers -- do you freezer your wort and store it for your starters? I got into a discussion with someone last night and they think that there are few AG brewers who DONT do this. I think the exact opposite -- there are way more that make starters from extract or from "live", recently cooled wort (NOT previously frozen).

Please vote, I'd like to get an idea just out of curiosity.

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No. I save my "tailing" malt and mix it together until I have a "brew". Then afterward, without the boil, Fill two cases of quart mason jars. From ebay a few years ago, I aquired a couple of large pressure canners, I "can" the run. IMO, the time spent on this is more than retuned with expediance and a properly prepared starter (yeast nutrients, low hops, Ph, etc). Just sayin'....