Yuri goes big with steam! (new boiler/point of use water heater)

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First, the standard safety disclaimer...
Please, DO NOT emulate my system without the proper safety devices in place! I am knowingly modifying a large pressure vessel and working with 220VAC at high amperage in close proximity to water. A boiler of this size could easily explode with INCREDIBLE energy (the Mythbusters did an episode on exploding water heaters that is almost mind-boggling). I have a safety blow-off valve installed to avoid such dire consequences. The bottom line: high powered electrical devices + water + high energy = potential for disaster. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME unless you are very confident and competent with working with all systems/forces involved.


Many of you likely remember my old boiler - a 5 gallon Cornelius keg on its side with a 6000W water heater element installed through the lid. I loved the results, but I HATED that boiler. As with many Cornies, it didn't seal without pressure, so it would routinely leak. I found myself struggling with it on multiple occasions. Also, it only had about two minutes worth of steam output before it needed a few minutes to recover. So, I went back to the drawing board, begged for a couple of 1/2 bbl kegs in the classifieds (thanks, Boston!), and now I have results!

First, I modified a 1/2 bbl straight-sided Sanke keg to accept a 5500W water heater element by welding a 1" FPT stainless lock nut to the bottom (from Bargain Fittings):

elementfitting.jpg


Then I modified a Sanke spear to accept a 1/2" NPT coupler:

modifiedspear.jpg


...and attached my old boiler rig (a horrid mish-mosh of brass/copper/bronze/stainless fittings and adapters):

fittingsinstalled.jpg


Here's the resulting 1/2 bbl boiler:

newboiler.jpg


I attached the output to another series of fittings that allow fresh water to come into contact with the steam (I call this the "point of use" system):

pointofuse.jpg


It got 15 gallons of water up to temp in about an hour:

uptotemp.jpg


...and it works like a charm!

spargewater.jpg


Once it was up to temp, I experimented with it for about 10 minutes. The pressure never dropped below 12 psi, even at full output. For reference, the tap water temperature was about 80° F (it's summer in south Texas!).

I was able to achieve a faucet-like pour of 150° F water. When I throttled the water flow rate back a bit, I could achieve a 1 qt/min flow of 170-180° F water, which is easily enough flow of high-temp water for fly sparging (thus eliminating an HLT from my system).

When I was done messing around with my new "toy" (term used quite loosely), I removed the power and opened the valves completely. It off-gassed for well over 10 minutes (and that's with NO INSULATION!).

My vision:
This will be the heat source for strike water, temperature infusions, and sparge water for brews up to 1/2 bbl in volume. I should even be able to recirculate the mash through the "point of use" portion in a RIMS fashion. I plan on routing both fresh water and a recirculating line to the "point of use" rig. I also plan on routing a steam line directly to a manifold inside the mash tun. That design should afford maximum flexibility to the system.

Side note:
As it turns out, a friend of mine has been lurking on HBT and reading up on a lot of my DIY stuff. Just today, he called and asked about steam mashing. I told him to come on over and check out the new rig in progress. He's now looking into a pressure cooker for a steam driven five gallon AG system.

Bummer:
As with most of my recent projects, the initial post promises great things, but the end results will likely be a bit delayed. I've gotten really busy with life, work, and the like, so brewing has taken a back seat. This boiler WILL appear again, but it may not be for a little while. My goal is to brew with the new rig by sometime this fall.

A further disclaimer:
Note, this is not necessarily an original idea. kladue uses a very similar system to run his rig. I'm not sure how big his boiler is, but the concepts are much the same. Thanks, kladue, for all the input over the years!
 
I saw some of your youtube videos the other day and it was the first time I saw a steam system. The concept makes sense to me in that steam is a gentle heat that is also very hot. But the whole system design makes me confused. I'm glad you understand it and seems that it works awesome for you. Congrats on the great upgrade.
 
An additional note...the welds you see were made with a Lincoln Square Wave Pro 175 TIG unit using 100% argon with a 3/32" 2% thoriated tungsten electrode sharpened to a fine point, all back-gas purged. They aren't perfect, but they're certainly acceptable. Don't accept anything less from a so-called "professional" when having fittings welded to your keggles and fermenters.
 
You might reconfigure the tee so the water enters from the side and the steam from the end, extend end of steam dispersion tube to end of the tee and cut slots in the steam dispersion tube. The turbulent flow from side entry should help tame the noise from steam injection. Looking forward to seeing your sucessful implementation of steam injection into liquid method for water and wort heating.
 
Do I understand correctly that it heats to 250F which would be 15psi. I realize the keg and fittings you used are more than adequately rated for that pressure. Are there any parts that are borderline for such a pressure? Just curious and ignorant.
 
Yeah, I'm surprised at how well stainless holds heat. If I fill a corny up with hot water it'll stay warm all day long.

Great looking rig Yuri. I'm always impressed with your unique ways. :mug:
 
I shoot for 10-12 psi which equates to about 240° F. The safety valve pops at 15 psi.

Everything in the system is more than adequate to handle the pressure generated. I'm guessing that I could pressurize it to over 50 psi before anything would fail.

I'm not really sure what you're asking about with the "borderline" question.
 
By "borderline" I just didn't know if there were any parts on the system that were near a failure rating of 15psi. Maybe a part I can't see. I just don't know what all parts you had to use for this. I realize the pipe fitings and everything else that I can see in the pics are more than capable of 15psi. Just curious.

I wish I could borrow your brain and Bill Gates money for 24 hours. I would have a great setup. :D
 
Is there any immediate problem with using the standard sanky coupler and attaching that to your keg? I might worry about the seals but was the problem finding anything to even connect to the coupler?

Also, when it comes to hammering, would an arrestor help in this situation when used with steam?
 
I could've used a Sanke coupler, but there's an awful lot of thick rubber seal material involved that I was afraid would impart some foul flavors. Also, I only have one Sanke coupler, and I wasn't about to go buy another when a $3 stainless fitting was really what I wanted in the first place.
 
Are you running the element on a controller?

I guess I don't quite get the use of steam yet. I mean, I read the threads about applying steam heat to the mash to step up temps or maintain but has any consideration been given to automation like a RIMS/HERMs would afford? I suppose a solenoid valve on the steam supply triggered by a temp probe in the mash would be workable.

One could argue that an element that big could just be used to heat the sparge water directly and since you've already committed to having a 1/2bbl vessel, it would hold the water anyway. At the end of the day, you've got a huge amount of energy stored which gets wasted right?

You could also just run your tap water into a RIMS tube with the same high power element and get your on-demand sparge water. No tank involved, no residual heat wasted.
 
Yes, the entire system will be run using an Arduino microcontroller. It will be just as automated as any RIMS/HERMS system out there, and I'd like to think it'll be a little more flexible.

I used to run a HERMS, and I didn't like it much. It was finicky, step mashing took forever, and it required the use of a pump for every operation.

With steam, the mash can be directly heated to achieve pretty rapid temperature changes. Add the pump back into the mix, and steam powered RIMS-style recirculation becomes possible. With a steam manifold in the boil kettle, some of that stored energy can be imparted to achieve a quicker boil. In all cases, steam will never scorch the wort like a RIMS tube or direct flame can. At the end of the day, I'll have some hot water left over for cleaning (I used to heat a few gallons in the HLT for that purpose, anyway).

So, I'm fairly convinced that this system provides all of the advantages of direct heat + RIMS/HERMS while eliminating some of the disadvantages. Sure, I still have a third vessel in the rig, but I'm convinced it adds a lot more functionality than a simple HLT.

A good friend of mine in New Mexico had been brewing with a HERMS rig for many years. When he heard about my steam setup, he read some of the related threads on HBT and used the info to design a simple pressure cooker system. He was amazed with the performance in comparison to his old HERMS getup. I don't think he even bothers getting the heat exchanger out anymore.
 
Yuri I have two questions.

1/ Re heat distribution in the mash.
I also tried a corny based system, but vertically. My main problems with the system were getting the steam distributed evenly, without hot spots. Is this a problem for you, or how do you avoid it, and did you ever get anywhere with your steam injecting rotating paddle idea?

2/ Re temp control of mash.
Are you planning to use the inline steam injection in this new unit to heat and ramp the mash? How will you control that, since I imagine an on/off solenoid might not be ideal (since a rapid on/off might trash the solenoid, and a long on and off might cook your enzymes)?

Cheers.
 
I dunno. With today's widespread availability of well modified malts, is it even necessary to step mash? Almost all malts available here in North America are well modified. I could see step mashing if one were using European Malts which are under modified and do not lend themselves to infusion. I just seems like alot of extra trouble simply to step mash. JMHO
 
You can also drink instant coffee, but.... I think there are subtle differences in the brews when you step. I think, and know from experience that a decoction changes a recipe for the better. Steps can help with head retention, as well as many other aspects of the mash compared to single infusion. Not saying there is anything wrong with drinking instant coffee or single infusion, but why not try stepping if you can?
 
This is straight off the top of my head, but I was under the impression that as temperature rises, stainless steel looses a massive amount of it's strength. (Think shiny putty)

In steam circles (boats, trains etc) SS is regarded as an extremely risky steel to use. So please check up on this in case I am right.

The water in a pressurized boiler can expand to about 800 times its original volume, so a keg exploding will take out half the street, remove nearly all of your skin immediately, and take a lot of mopping up :eek:

You will have to do some research to verify this, but please do some sort of check with other steam guys in your area to double check.

I am no longer a member, but check out the steam boat association of great Britain, as it is one of their regular warnings, and they have been playing around with steam related things for many decades, and they are almost all old buggers with hats on, who have seen it, done it, and nearly been killed by it, so tend to know a thing or two between them..
 
You can also drink instant coffee, but.... I think there are subtle differences in the brews when you step. I think, and know from experience that a decoction changes a recipe for the better. Steps can help with head retention, as well as many other aspects of the mash compared to single infusion. Not saying there is anything wrong with drinking instant coffee or single infusion, but why not try stepping if you can?

Being honest, I have not tried a beer that was step mashed nor have I tried step mashing for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I guess if I lived in Europe where the malts are under modified I would have no choice. My RIMS system is nowhere near fast enough to try a mash step. Even if it was I am not sure if the "Subtle" differences are enough to make me want to try it. It sounds like the steam system described in this post is the best way to do a step mash and I am not going to re-engineer my system anytime soon. Besides that, steam scares the living Chit out of me.
 
With steam, the mash can be directly heated to achieve pretty rapid temperature changes. Add the pump back into the mix, and steam powered RIMS-style recirculation becomes possible. With a steam manifold in the boil kettle, some of that stored energy can be imparted to achieve a quicker boil. In all cases, steam will never scorch the wort like a RIMS tube or direct flame can. At the end of the day, I'll have some hot water left over for cleaning (I used to heat a few gallons in the HLT for that purpose, anyway).

So, I'm fairly convinced that this system provides all of the advantages of direct heat + RIMS/HERMS while eliminating some of the disadvantages. Sure, I still have a third vessel in the rig, but I'm convinced it adds a lot more functionality than a simple HLT.
Just spotted this thread. Nice build Yuri -- I am very jealous of your talent?

I agree with your assessment of steam infusion. I built at recirc system for my equipment but haven't used it much (not much brewing in the last year for me, unfortunately). Anyways, I concur that steam infusion recirculating mash systems (SIRMS?) have all the advantages of traditional RIMS OR HERMS but with few disadvantages. Scorching is entirely eliminated and heating with steam is MUCH faster than with a HERMS. It can be easily controlled with solenoid valves for automation much more easily than controlling flame control on a direct-fire system because there is no thermal inertia for which to compensate.

A BIG advantage of steam systems is that you can step mash in coolers. The combination of precise temperature control and the insulation of a cooler (without the thermal inertia problems of big steel kettles) translates to the most precise mashing control possible.

The biggest downside to steam heating is that you must have a recirc system or be prepared to stir like crazy while heating, otherwise you will generate hotspots in the mash, perhaps to the degree of negatively affecting enzyme viability (at least locally).

Anyways, I am definitely subscribed to this build -- hope you get back to it again soon, Yuri.

:mug:
 
Yorg, directly injected steam makes hot spots unless the mash is stirred. I plan on stirring it if I use the manifold in the mash tun. When recirculating with the inline portion of the system, I have a needle valve to control the steam output. A solenoid valve will get the steam going, but I'll need to manually adjust the needle valve in order to fine tune the temperature and flow rate. My original intent was to completely automate the system, but that is going to be FAR too costly. The boiler will be automatically maintained, and there will be a few solenoid valves to help regulate the mash and start the sparge, but some manual tweaking will definitely be involved.

Sawdustguy, this system isn't necessarily all about step mashing. It will get my strike water up to temp, maintain the mash at a steady temp, heat and supply my sparge water, AND have the bonus of being able to quickly achieve a step temp.

silverbrewer, I'm using pressures and temperatures far less than those experienced in a locomotive or engine application. My system is definitely safe for the temperature and pressure it generates. If I were in need of a 200+ psi boiler that could reach temperatures approaching 400° F, I'd change the design significantly (or abandon the idea!).
 
You will have to do some research to verify this, but please do some sort of check with other steam guys in your area to double check.
..

maybe you should do some research!

becase you are wrong about ss boilers
this is only 15 psi
and a sankey keg is thicker that most stove top SS pressure cookers.
a sankey key has a working max psi of 60 psi and that means by law it has to be safe at 2x that lvl so it can handle 120 psi
 
Yuri,

I'm in the process of figuring out how to build an automated system similar to what it sounds like you have. I was planning on a herms, but i think i like the idea about steam. It looks like the pictures have disappeared though, so i'm wondering if you could point me to some more pics of your setup? I think that would answer most of the questions I have lol

Thanks a bunch!!
 
Yuri,
I have a brew pot with a heat exchanger that I am looking to apply steam as a heating source. I am trying to decide if i want a return line for the condensate or just let the condensate drip off. I like your idea of using the keg as a steam generator, which I probably will use. I was told that I could keep my exchanger higher than the steam generator, (along with a one way valve) gravity would return the condensate to the steam keg. Using that kind of setup it would be a closed system pressure cooker (with gauge and pressure relief) with heat exchanger at a higher level. One thing that I am worried about is if the one way valve and gravity will be enough to keep the steam flowing. Do you have any suggestions for making a system like that flowing and possibly even something to keep it flowing without being higher than my steam keg, or any other suggestions for safety devices that would eliminate problems?

IMG00301.jpg


IMG00302.jpg
 
maybe you should do some research!

becase you are wrong about ss boilers
this is only 15 psi
and a sankey keg is thicker that most stove top SS pressure cookers.
a sankey key has a working max psi of 60 psi and that means by law it has to be safe at 2x that lvl so it can handle 120 psi

Maybe so, but if something goes wrong it could be a major bummer. Run your hand over a small 250+*F steam leak once and you will understand what I'm saying. Explosions are not the only risk. I freely admit that DIY steam boilers scare the hell out of me.
 
It looks like GreenMonti's pictures are gone, here is a a link to Sanch's build thread with a flash boiler https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/sanchs-official-all-tri-clover-rig-build-242040/index4.html. With steam for boiling the primary problem will be how much steam you can generate, which is directly related to the heat source. If trying to use electric water heater elements, it would be more efficient to just install them in the kettle to eliminate losses. With the flash boiler the burner under the boiler is the limiting factor, 100K Btu burner in a 6" tube is what is currently used, for a net heating yield in the range of 10 - 15 Kw. This approach is controlled by varying the burner flame, not the water flow or steam pressure. While the burner flame can be controlled electronically with a mass flow controller and pid controller with voltage or current output, it is not simple or cheap.
 
Yuri, I was wondering what was your maximum pressure that you achieved on this set up?
just wondering if it creaks any when the psi picks up?
 
Any updates on this topic? Were you able to replace your HLT altogether? I may have missed it in the previous post but the water that you were using as sparge water was it pulled from the steam vessel itself or circulated in via an outside water source?
 
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