Exploring "no chill" brewing

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Just finished up my second no chill today. Also my first SMASH. Man, this no chill thing is the ****. I salute those brave homebrewers who think beyond what we were taught and believed as truth.
 
So one of the advantages of no chill is the ability to make an actual wort starter. But I have a couple of questions. I know usually you don't put hops in your starter, I didn't think about this yesterday and drained off 2 liters after the boil to my starter vessel. Do you take your starter wort before any hop additions? If so, do you account for the extra starter volume in your recipe? I guess you could just dump the whole thing back into the beer, though it has been oxidized.
 
chefchris said:
So one of the advantages of no chill is the ability to make an actual wort starter. But I have a couple of questions. I know usually you don't put hops in your starter, I didn't think about this yesterday and drained off 2 liters after the boil to my starter vessel. Do you take your starter wort before any hop additions? If so, do you account for the extra starter volume in your recipe? I guess you could just dump the whole thing back into the beer, though it has been oxidized.
Click to expand...

Some people do hop thier starters, there is no reason to worry about it, it doesnt make a lick of difference.

I pitch the whole starter, since I dont have a stir plate, it isnt oxidized anyway, it is just beer.

I take my starter wort when it is proper to do so. If I have a HIGH pre boil gravity on a big beer, I wil use the pre boil. Post boil may have too high of a SG.

If I am brewing a really small beer, I will use the post boil wort so that I am not using 1.020 wort, I am using 1.040 for example.
 
The Pol said:
Some people do hop thier starters, there is no reason to worry about it, it doesnt make a lick of difference.

I pitch the whole starter, since I dont have a stir plate, it isnt oxidized anyway, it is just beer.

I take my starter wort when it is proper to do so. If I have a HIGH pre boil gravity on a big beer, I wil use the pre boil. Post boil may have too high of a SG.

If I am brewing a really small beer, I will use the post boil wort so that I am not using 1.020 wort, I am using 1.040 for example.
Click to expand...

Sweet, once I thought about it I realized my OG was suppose to be 1.065. It was too late by then, so I dilluted it with water to tone it down. Gonna pitch my starter in a few minutes, then my second no chill is off!
 
Some ppl have been concerned about the clarity of the beer with no chill...

My no chill SNPA brewed in May is crystal clear... I am currently drinking a Centennial Blonde that was chilled normally, that has been kegged and cold for 8 months. It is not even close to being as clear as the no chill SNPA. I dont see a difference in clarity of the final product at all. My no chill beers in some cases are even clearer.
 
Ok after fermentation picked up the containers went back to their original shape, I guess the CO2 helped push them back into shape.
It's so cool in fact that I ordered two more today. The convenience of not having to worry about pitching immediately after brew day also helps lessen the time spent working after flame out. :cross:
 
Sorry I never posted pictures, but as an update, at about 2 weeks my no chill container is still holding a vaccuum which means no gas producing bacteria have come in and ravaged my wort.

I will most likley rack and pitch this weekend sometime so I can maybe brew again in another week or two.
 
I usually just pitch my yeast into my post boil wort. I don't dilute or anything. I did a 1.083 beer this last weekend. Used 1/2 gallon RWS. It was bubbling by the time I pitched it all (about 18 hours later). We are probably seriously overpitching into the starter anyway. I thought about diluting it, but forgot, and it all seems to work out well.

This is actually like this: Drauflassen - German Brewing Techniques
 
The Pol said:
Some ppl have been concerned about the clarity of the beer with no chill...

My no chill SNPA brewed in May is crystal clear... I am currently drinking a Centennial Blonde that was chilled normally, that has been kegged and cold for 8 months. It is not even close to being as clear as the no chill SNPA. I dont see a difference in clarity of the final product at all. My no chill beers in some cases are even clearer.
Click to expand...

The Blond have chill haze?

I like my beers that are supposed to be crystal clear to be that clear, so I'm really really wondering how clear these beers are when your are not precipitating a lot of protein in the cold break that is in solution and will not just fall out. Also, there is a lot more that can contribute to cloudy beer than the cold break. For example certain malts will contribute a lot more protein than others.

I know a lot of people don't care about the appearance and serve out of opaque mugs, but for those of us that do care, I'd like pictures.
 
z987k said:
The Blond have chill haze?

I like my beers that are supposed to be crystal clear to be that clear, so I'm really really wondering how clear these beers are when your are not precipitating a lot of protein in the cold break that is in solution and will not just fall out. Also, there is a lot more that can contribute to cloudy beer than the cold break. For example certain malts will contribute a lot more protein than others.

I know a lot of people don't care about the appearance and serve out of opaque mugs, but for those of us that do care, I'd like pictures.
Click to expand...

I do care about appearance, and it is BMC clear. I know, some little paper back book written in the 80's sayes it is impossible. I think those books also say that it is IMPERATIVE that you chill quickly and that you MUST add water to grain when you mash in. I am really glad that I dont blindly believe everything that I read or hear. I can see my entire house through the glass as I stand in my neighbors driveway across the street, it is as clear or clearer than any beer you have brewed, I assure you. I get asked if it is filtered in fact.

Again, it is BMC clear, and I dont chill my wort. I know people that chill thiers and they have haze... I feel sorry for those guys. If you are really wondering, I can PM you my address and you are welcome to come over and draw a pint yourself. How can you be sure any photo I send, is even of MY beer? Really.

I thought when I began this method that my beers would be hard pressed to be clear... I am finding out that is simply not true on my Hause Ale and the SNPA thus far. I have a hard time believing something written in the 80's, and an even harder time listening to people that have NEVER TRIED IT telling me, and others, that it wont work. Oh really... is that so? And you base this on?

HBT can get pretty comical when all of the "experts" come out to weigh in on a topic. I am no expert, but I dont say it cant be done, unless I have some experience with it. Now, I will let the experts take the floor and tell me I am wrong :)
 
I tried it for the first time. I brewed 10.5 gallons, filled the cube and my fermenter. The cube holds 5.5 gals. I gave the cube full to a friend that has never brewed before. We are using the same yeast, so it will be a good test. He kept the cube for a day and a half before putting it in his bucket.

I now have a 7 gal conical but still brew 11 gal batches.

Thank you!

David :)
 
Droot said:
I tried it for the first time. I brewed 10.5 gallons, filled the cube and my fermenter. The cube holds 5.5 gals. I gave the cube full to a friend that has never brewed before.
Click to expand...

I've heard of several people doing this: brewing 10 gallon batches, putting it into 2 cubes, and splitting between friends.

I had thought about extending this - you could use different cube hops and/or yeast in each half of a batch. Depending on what you brewed, you may could have 2 completely different styles from one batch - or at least related styles. Use a very neutral bittering hop - cube hop one with cascade and pitch US-05, do the other with a bunch of goldings and an english yeast - an american and an english pale from one batch. (Yeah, I know the malt should be different, that's just what I came up with off the top of my head.) Or, some saaz and beglianny yeast in one and clean american in another, etc...

Hmmm, I think they have 3 gallons cubes that would be perfect for this...

Edit:

I found plenty of 2.5 gallon cubes, no 3 gallon ones. I already have some 3 gallon better bottle I use for mead, however.
 
I find lots of uses for this no chill thing. EXACT same batch, different yeast or hops or both,. I can brew my standard 11 gal batch, ferment half and keep the other half for another time. This is my plan. Maybe have a few cubes full and ready for the dead of winter (I brew outside). Also this will keep my 7 gal fermenter going all the time. Waiting to see how long it will keep in a cube. Brewing next weekend, 1/2 fermented, 1/2 in the cube. Perhaps another part of the pipeline? Can't brew every other week? Dump a cube in the fermenter.....

Thanks for this information.

David :)
 
The Pol said:
I do care about appearance, and it is BMC clear. I know, some little paper back book written in the 80's sayes it is impossible. I think those books also say that it is IMPERATIVE that you chill quickly and that you MUST add water to grain when you mash in. I am really glad that I dont blindly believe everything that I read or hear. I can see my entire house through the glass as I stand in my neighbors driveway across the street, it is as clear or clearer than any beer you have brewed, I assure you. I get asked if it is filtered in fact.

Again, it is BMC clear, and I dont chill my wort. I know people that chill thiers and they have haze... I feel sorry for those guys. If you are really wondering, I can PM you my address and you are welcome to come over and draw a pint yourself. How can you be sure any photo I send, is even of MY beer? Really.

I thought when I began this method that my beers would be hard pressed to be clear... I am finding out that is simply not true on my Hause Ale and the SNPA thus far. I have a hard time believing something written in the 80's, and an even harder time listening to people that have NEVER TRIED IT telling me, and others, that it wont work. Oh really... is that so? And you base this on?

HBT can get pretty comical when all of the "experts" come out to weigh in on a topic. I am no expert, but I dont say it cant be done, unless I have some experience with it. Now, I will let the experts take the floor and tell me I am wrong :)
Click to expand...

Hmmm Indy roadtrip to brew with the Pol, I think I might take you up on that ;)

I only ask because it really does seem like it would be rather difficult given that we do know that the cold break proteins do not all just settle out over time, rather they are precipitated out from the cooling... and this can happen again when you go and keg your beer.. but apparently it's not all that much of an issue. I do wonder if certain grains lend themselves to this more than others.

you also had me intrigued so I referenced Brew Science, here's what they have to say on cold break:
As the wort cools it becomes cloudy as the cold break or trub separates from solution.
This material contains about 50% protein, 15±25% polyphenols and 20±30% of wort
carbohydrates (see Chapter 9). Unlike the hot break this material does not flocculate, and
occurs as small particles, <1 m, in amounts reported to be 40±350 mg/l. In the past
there was much interest in the temperatures at which cold break formation began and
whether it occurred more rapidly when cooling was rapid or slow (Hough et al., 1982).
The importance of cold break in brewing is disputed. There may be two main reasons for
this; firstly the break in worts from different grists may have significantly different
properties and, secondly, in some cases the cold break may be mixed with hot break that
was not completely removed and so effects attributed to the cold break are, in fact, due to
residual hot break. Some have reported that cold break has no influence on fermentation
rate or beer analyses while others report that cold break accelerates the fermentation rate
very significantly (Crompton and Hegarty, 1991; Dickel et al., 2002; Narziss et al., 1971;
Rehberger and Luther, 1994).
Click to expand...

Even more, and possibly more interesting:
Zinc ions and/or unsaturated fatty acids in the break could stimulate yeast
multiplication in zinc-deficient or poorly oxygenated worts (Chapters 11 and 12).
`Excess' cold break may confer off-flavours to beers, it will contaminate the yeast crop
and it may confuse the control of pitching rate, cause poor fining, and accelerate the
fermentation rate. Even where cold break removal had no measurable effects on the
brewing parameters, beers made from break-free worts were preferred (Narziss et al., 1971)
Click to expand...

This one is a little bit more up to date than a 80's homebrew book, and to be honest all in all it sure doesn't give much of a reason to knock no-chill... and possibly even preferred, but to me that would have to be tested in my own beer(if I preferred it).
 
Thought I posted the photo here of the beer already. SNPA at 34F

NOCHILLSNPA.JPG
 
Damn Pol, one picture is worth more than a 26 page thread. Once I started reading, I didn't doubt you, but that really proves it.
 
Once a month my LHBS brews up a wort in thier pico system.
About $30 gets you 5 gal of all grain wort.

They fill your pail with wort that is about 180 deg F.
You take it home and pitch the next day.

Works great every time!
 
Edcculus said:
Damn Pol, one picture is worth more than a 26 page thread. Once I started reading, I didn't doubt you, but that really proves it.
Click to expand...

Well, the one thing that I can assure you of. Unlike many on HBT, I dont claim to KNOW anything unless I have done it. Reading something in a book, isnt knowing, it is listening. Unless you have tried something, it is pure specualtion in my book. I say this because I have read many things that when put to a practical test, didnt hold water.

Thanks for believing, photos are helpful though. I am not saying that NO CHILL makes beer clearer... I am simply saying that you can have clear beer with the NO CHILL method.
 
Just finished up my 3rd No Chill beer. I don't guess this good feeling's going to go away with time. Feels great everytime to shut off the burner, drain it and commense to life.

Pol, you have saved me 6-7 hours of my life, many gallons of water and a paragraph of cuss words. I can now brew when I get off of work and be done in plenty of time for bed, after I stop by here of course.
 
Quick question. How soon is too soon to start chilling down the cube? I understand that the boiling hot wort helps sanitize it, but after a couple of hours it seems like you could throw it in the fridge.

Also, how necessary is it to squeeze all of the air out of it? I did this with my first one and now can't get it to pop back out making a blow off tube necessary as there is no headspace (i obviously ferment in the cube).
 
Well, there is no real requirement to start cooling the cube. I mean, mine cools to pitching temp over 24 hours at an ambient temp of 65F. Obviously, I create this scenario in my freezer.

Burbing the air out, pretty important if you are STORING the wort. If you are simply pitching the next day, no need.
 
chefchris said:
Just finished up my 3rd No Chill beer. I don't guess this good feeling's going to go away with time. Feels great everytime to shut off the burner, drain it and commense to life.

Pol, you have saved me 6-7 hours of my life, many gallons of water and a paragraph of cuss words. I can now brew when I get off of work and be done in plenty of time for bed, after I stop by here of course.
Click to expand...

Awesome, it is nice to boil and drain. I agree. My rig is cleaned by the time the boil is over, so I drain and rinse the kettle and I am done.

You mean you dont miss hooking up the hoses and then cleaning the chilling coils? WHAT?
 
So do you let the cube sit out in the open till it cools down or are you putting it in the freezer not long after transferring to the cube? Mine's been in the cube for about an hour now, of course it's still piping hot.

So far I don't plan on long term storage in the cube pre-fermentation. I have been pitching the next day.

While your at it, do you think you could rewrite the books on cleaning equipment as well. If we could come up with a No Clean method that would be fantastic.
 
chefchris said:
So do you let the cube sit out in the open till it cools down or are you putting it in the freezer not long after transferring to the cube? Mine's been in the cube for about an hour now, of course it's still piping hot.

So far I don't plan on long term storage in the cube pre-fermentation. I have been pitching the next day.

While your at it, do you think you could rewrite the books on cleaning equipment as well. If we could come up with a No Clean method that would be fantastic.
Click to expand...

Well you really don't have to clean anything before the boil. Er well sanitize I guess. You might want to get that week old grain out of the mash tun before using it again.
 
Well, I make sure my cube is at an ambient temp of about 65F. If I can achieve that OUTside the freezer, I do. If I cannot... well then it goes into the freezer within a few hours of being boiled. Typically when it is cool in the house and I bring the cube in here to cool, it is piping hot for 12 hours or so.

If you are pitching the next day, no need to get all the air out... I use a 6 gallon Winpak...
 
z987k said:
Well you really don't have to clean anything before the boil. Er well sanitize I guess. You might want to get that week old grain out of the mash tun before using it again.
Click to expand...

No, I don't clean anything before brewday. I always clean afterwards; boil kettle and mash tun. I just hate doing it. Last night was the first time I let it just sit over night. Now it's the morning after and I still don't feel like cleaning it. Go figure.

Put the cube in the fridge last night. Still pretty warm this morning when I got up. I'll check it in a couple hours and hopefully pitch tonight.

:mug:
 
I have found with 5.5 gallons of wort.

18 hours at 65F and I can pitch

24 hours at 70F and I can pitch

I prefer the 65F ambient temp, only because I generally ferment my ales in the mid 60s.
 
Pol, you ferment in the cube? If so, what do you use as an airlock? It seems like the opening is too large for a normal stopper...
 
chefchris said:
No, I don't clean anything before brewday. I always clean afterwards; boil kettle and mash tun. I just hate doing it. Last night was the first time I let it just sit over night. Now it's the morning after and I still don't feel like cleaning it. Go figure.

Put the cube in the fridge last night. Still pretty warm this morning when I got up. I'll check it in a couple hours and hopefully pitch tonight.

:mug:
Click to expand...

Let it sit for a week. You'll really find out what sour mash means.
 
Others like me have probably employed a hybrid of this method - the Partial Chill. The summer temps drive the tap water higher making chilling to yeast pitching temps very difficult. I've recently used the chiller take the temps to 100F, transfer to primary, then place in temp controlled fridge. I pitch the yeast the next day. So far, it works well but it takes longer than the no chill. Dropping the remaining degrees would take an eternity for me wasting water and time...I've tried it.

The no chill has me extremely curious as time is my factor. I'm a father of 3 kids 3 and under. My kettle doesn't have a spigot/valve, so I'd need to create a siphon and I don't have the HDPE container yet. All things considered, have others been successful just putting the kettle full of wort to the side for 24 hrs and then transferring to the primary??? I understand that this is not as perfect as the container, but is it reliable/safe?? If so I wouldn't need any new hoses or containers.

Thanks for this fantastic thread, I read it all last night.....so cool!
 

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