New Glarus Moon Man Clone Help

http://hopville.com/recipe/1522536/...s/pain-in-the-ass-pale-ale-2012-07-11-version

This is the recipe I have come up with so far. I am using half and half Munich and MO because those are the base malts I have at the moment. I opted for no 60 min hop addition to cut down on bittering and focus more on the hop flavors and aromas. Let me know what you fine folks think. I am telling you, Moteuka is the game changer in this one. The raw hops smell EXACTLY like a fresh bottle of Moon Man.

http://hopville.com/recipe/1522536/...s/pain-in-the-ass-pale-ale-2012-07-11-version

This is the recipe I have come up with so far. I am using half and half Munich and MO because those are the base malts I have at the moment. I opted for no 60 min hop addition to cut down on bittering and focus more on the hop flavors and aromas. Let me know what you fine folks think. I am telling you, Moteuka is the game changer in this one. The raw hops smell EXACTLY like a fresh bottle of Moon Man.

Brewing on Monday. Pictures to follow, if my camera is cooperating.

urbanmyth said:

Brewing on Monday. Pictures to follow, if my camera is cooperating.

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any update to this? I recently had my first (and second, third, etc.) bottle of Moon Man PA on vacation in Wisconsin/Up North. Gotta say I immediately felt like it was one of the best PA's I've had. I think the intense dry-hopping and dry, sessionable finish were the key points. Of course I thought there was great hop flavor as well, similar to my Nugget IIPA.

I considered making my Nugget Empire as a PA and seeing how I liked that. Is the general rule in scaling an IPA to a PA just dropping the IBU's, or do most guys also drop the flavor/aroma/dry-hop additions some as well?

I've been messing with my own Moon Man inspired APA. In 5 gallons, I have been first wort hopping/boiling with equal 5 gram quantity of Amarillo, Citra, Pacific Gem, and Summit. (Rager IBU around 35) Then 10 days dry hop with 14 grams each of same hops. I had planed on using Nelson Sauvin as a 5th hop, but wasn't availabe at the time I did my last order.

As is, this comes very close, actually brewing again this evening. 15 days till the fair, wanted to bring this one, but we drank the last batch up before I could pull a couple bottles off. Going to try and push it by pitching on to a slurry, dry-hopping after 3 days, dry hop for 8 days, hit it with some super-kleer, chill and force carb. Session APA are great young anyhow!

The NG website does say that they use 4 Pacific NW hops and 1 NZ hop... I believe. I'm looking for some information because I do like this beer and live in IL so I cannot get it without a GOOD drive. Cheers Beerheads.

tre9er said:

any update to this? I recently had my first (and second, third, etc.) bottle of Moon Man PA on vacation in Wisconsin/Up North. Gotta say I immediately felt like it was one of the best PA's I've had. I think the intense dry-hopping and dry, sessionable finish were the key points. Of course I thought there was great hop flavor as well, similar to my Nugget IIPA.

I considered making my Nugget Empire as a PA and seeing how I liked that. Is the general rule in scaling an IPA to a PA just dropping the IBU's, or do most guys also drop the flavor/aroma/dry-hop additions some as well?

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I dry hopped the brew last night. I used an ounce of Muteuka and Pacific Gem, half an ounce of Amarillo and Cascade and a forth ounce of Willamette. The mixture smelled great in the cup before I added them, and slightly of Moon Man. It kind of morphed into a showcase of New Zealand hops instead of a Moon Man clone, but I do believe in my heart of hearts that Mutueka is the variety that makes Moon Man unique. My camera was not cooperating on brew day, but I shall post tasting notes in about three weeks after bottle conditioning has finished.

urbanmyth said:

I dry hopped the brew last night. I used an ounce of Muteuka and Pacific Gem, half an ounce of Amarillo and Cascade and a forth ounce of Willamette. The mixture smelled great in the cup before I added them, and slightly of Moon Man. It kind of morphed into a showcase of New Zealand hops instead of a Moon Man clone, but I do believe in my heart of hearts that Mutueka is the variety that makes Moon Man unique. My camera was not cooperating on brew day, but I shall post tasting notes in about three weeks after bottle conditioning has finished.

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Well I've purchased 3oz each of Motueka and Pac Gem. My neighbor and fellow (long-time) brewer said he'd bet Amarillo is in there due to the citrus notes. Good call on that. He said he doesn't use Cascade with other hops very often, though.

My plan is to use the NZ hops along with something citrusy, maybe Amarillo or Cascade, for flavor/aroma...and bitter with something high-alpha that I like, probably Nugget. I plan on doing just a 30 minute boil.

My grain should be here this week, so I'll brew it this weekend likely.

Sub'd. I love this stuff, good hop flavor with a clean finish.

tre9er said:

Well I've purchased 3oz each of Motueka and Pac Gem. My neighbor and fellow (long-time) brewer said he'd bet Amarillo is in there due to the citrus notes. Good call on that. He said he doesn't use Cascade with other hops very often, though.

My plan is to use the NZ hops along with something citrusy, maybe Amarillo or Cascade, for flavor/aroma...and bitter with something high-alpha that I like, probably Nugget. I plan on doing just a 30 minute boil.

My grain should be here this week, so I'll brew it this weekend likely.

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Which grain bill are you using?

urbanmyth said:

Which grain bill are you using?

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American 2-row 14
American Crystal 40 2

Mash at 153 as to not dry it out too much but also not a malt-forward beer. I'm probably using a chico repitch, which I know will chew down quite a lot, so I want SOME mouthfeel.

I find I still get good malt sweetness mashing at 153-154, even with a very simple grain bill. My favorite house IIPA is made with a similar grain bill.

sub'd. Love the stuff.

I agree tre9er - my simple grain bills seem to come out better.

So, I kegged this about a week ago and finally got my keezer up and running. I still have a few kinks to work out concerning finings and getting the temp controller to work and force carbonating and so on, but I can taste the beer pretty well through the dry hop flakes.

It is a good beer. I ended up mashing a little low, and my efficiency was ****ty because of a change in process. DME was added to compensate, but it didn't quite give me what I wanted to end up with. The result is still a good beer malt wise, but it is lacking a little.

Now the hops. I won't be so bold as to say it is a Moon Man clone. I will say that it has some Moon Man qualities. The slight tropical fruit characteristic that the alleged New Zealand hops is present, as is some grapefruit qualities. When I brew this again, I will back off on the bittering additions, as it is just a stitch too bitter up front. I think I will keep dry hop schedule the same - an ounce each of Moutueka, Amarillo, Pacific Gem, and Cascade along with a half ounce of Willamette.

All in all, I really enjoy my version of this style. Not EXACTLY correct, not an exact clone, but more of a tribute beer, if that makes some sense. I will brew it again, and I think it may come to be my house pale ale.

That said, does anybody have any good ways to keep loose dry hops out of my glass? I suppose I should use gelatin or something similar.

I wanted to add my tasting notes from my batch of a similar beer. Its late hopped starting at 30m, only did a 30m boil in fact. No DMS.
Grain bill is just pale ale malt and crystal 40 to color/taste.

I agree the prescribed IBUs comes across a touch too bitter to me. There's a lingering bite I'm not super fond of, though this is one of my better beers of the style. I bittered with Nugget, a fav of mine and I had a lot on hand...at 30m then did flavor/aroma with equal parts motueka and pac gem.

I also dry hopped with both of these NZ hops. I'll post full recipe tomorrow. I should note I overnight mashed at 153 and the beer attenuated all the way down to 1.001, finishing at nearly 6%...overshot that a bit. Perhaps a less dry beer would have balanced out a little better with the IBUs.

My guess would be that there are no 60 minute hops for this beer.

Hanso said:

My guess would be that there are no 60 minute hops for this beer.

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Right. I bittered at 30, nothing before. Still think the IBU's are a little high, that or my dry finish is adding a bite to the end.

Here's my recipe, again, a little high on the IBU's I think:

9g batch
OG 1.049
IBU 34.8
ABV ~6.4% (overshot)

14lbs. 2-row
2lbs. Crystal 40

Mashed overnight at 153, finished at 143. Beer attenuated to 1.001, VERY dry. In future would do 155-156 (for my overnight setup) to denature some betas and get slightly more mouthfeel. 153 should work fine for 60m mash though.

Hops Varieties Ounces Time (mins.) of Addition
Nugget 1.00 30
Pacific Gem 0.50 15
Motueka 0.50 15
Pacific Gem 1.00 5
Motueka 1.00 5
Motueka 1.50 Dry
Pacific Gem 1.50 Dry

US-05 repitch, slurry made into starter, about 18 hours since innoculation.

Fermented at 64 for about a week, dry hopped 3-4 days, cold crashed 3-4 days, kegged, burst carbed at 30PSI, drinking in 24 hours, fully carbed in 48-72 hours.

Been thinking of removing the 25m addition and just adding a scosche more to the 15. I think IBU's in the 20's would be much better here. This is one of my best beers despite this, though.

I'm sure the overnight mash is what dried the beer out. I'm thinking more hops in the sub 15 minute level, but not sure. Also not familiar with the hops you used here but I'm thinking the real beer has at least a couple different citrusy hops, like cascade Amarillo and citra.

Hanso said:

I'm sure the overnight mash is what dried the beer out. I'm thinking more hops in the sub 15 minute level, but not sure. Also not familiar with the hops you used here but I'm thinking the real beer has at least a couple different citrusy hops, like cascade Amarillo and citra.

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Yeah, not trying to get a huge citrus flavor but it does have plenty of fruit. More tropical fruit, some grass, it's very good. I know amarillo is in MM but I didn't have it. This is an "inspired by" beer, not a clone.

Yeah, the overnight mash dried it out. This was my first one. It doesn't taste hot/alcoholic at all though. It has good sweetness too from the pale malt and crystal. As I mentioned though, next time I'll probably mash at 155 for overnight.

Mine will be mashed even higher next time. Somewhere near 157 or 158. 153 even was too low, with as simple and light a grain bill I used. Looking forward to brewing this again with a different hop bill, too. Adding in Amarillo and Citra in the late hops. Should get that nice, grapefruity tropical fruit thing Moon Man has nicely.

Some Galaxy, too. I recently brewed a black IPA dryhopped with a charge of Galaxy, Cascade, Citra and Motueka that smelled fantastic. It may be one of the "un-traditional hops" mentioned on the New Glarus website.

Does anyone know the exact abv/og/fg? BA/RB says the abv 5% but I found a site that lists its stats at...

ABV: 5.7
ABW: 4.5
Color: 7
Bitterness: 35
Original gravity: 1050

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My money's on 5% (since the posted stats list the OG as 1.050) but anyway, one of you who has easy access to this beer should degas a sample and get an accurate FG reading. That way we can determine what the actual OG of this beer is.

I have a case of them so I can probably afford to sacrifice some fizz in the name of science. Will report back hopefully by Friday. if not, nag me.

I hate to not give too much info out here without trying anything myself, but I do have a little update to my initial post. The hops given were off....way off. The only one that was correct was Riwaka. I found out they use citra in place of the Riwaka most times though since Riwaka is hard to come by. Second, as mentioned by my buddy John, target IBU's are 22. I "think" I have 4 of the 5 hops, and know somebody in the know, but they are tight lipped about it. Im still working on it though. Glad someone is trying this out. Ive been out of brewing for the last 9 months because of a move (still working on getting a gas line run to the garage to run my brewstand). Keep us updated!

lalnx said:

I've been messing with my own Moon Man inspired APA. In 5 gallons, I have been first wort hopping/boiling with equal 5 gram quantity of Amarillo, Citra, Pacific Gem, and Summit. (Rager IBU around 35) Then 10 days dry hop with 14 grams each of same hops. I had planed on using Nelson Sauvin as a 5th hop, but wasn't availabe at the time I did my last order.

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I took the opportunity to try this side by side with the actual moon man. First tasting notes were mine had a slightly higher bitterness, at my calculated 35 IBU. The hop flavor/aroma was right on with the exception of a slight lemon-lime element that the moon man has that mine was missing.

This points me right to the Motueka hop as a key hop. I think If I add that one in as well, it will be pretty dang close.

Mine was also slightly darker and less dry. my grain bill was 9# 2 row, 1# crystal 40, .5# biscuit, .5#munich mashed at 154. On my next go around, I will drop to .5# crystal 40 and add the Motueka hops in the same ratios as the others, but shoot for a mid 20's IBU. If that still needs to be a little dryer, I will then adjust my mash lower after that.

I took a picture, maybe I'll get around to posting that.

Update: While not an exact clone, my "Fashionably Late" PA (inspired by the clones herein) is one of the best beers I've ever made, by far. It ended up SUPER dry, but not alcoholic in the least bit. The hops shine through like crazy. It's ALMOST IPA-ish, but not...the IBU's are 34 but the aroma/flavor is what makes you think it's more like an IPA. Color was around 8. This came out about 6% ABV and is deceptively easy to drink.

I'm submitting it for a "Winter Beer" competition, even though it might not seem much like a Winter beer...because they listed APA style as acceptable and again, this is my best beer yet.

Initially I thought about changing this or that, but in the end I really love this beer. The NZ hops are the stars of the show, like nothing you've tasted. Very tropical fruit, melony, with a slight citrus bite. Very different PA that people seem to love.

I tried to make this beer too. We were up in the Northwoods fishing in August and had a number of these. My wife and my BIL both liked it a lot. After some homework, I settled on Nelson Sauvin, Simcoe, Amarillo, Motueka and Citra. I FWH'd with small amount of all 5 hops and then added more of the blend of each of the 5 hops at 10, 5, 2 and 1. Then I dry hopped it with a blend. It's currently cold, kegged and carbed and I have not tasted it. My mash temp was low (around 151) because this beer is not malty, sweet or full of body. I used a small amount of C60 (maybe 5-6 oz) in 5 gallons. My yeast was 1056. I've actually been driving over the border, past the cheddar curtain so I can pick up cases of Moon Man and also Staghorn Octoberfest. I don't expect my version to be right on, but at least in the spirit of it. Their site says 4 hops from the Pacific NW... 2 of which are not normally seen in an APA and one Southern Hemisphere hop. I used two NZ hops (NS and Motueka) and I do think the Simcoe, Amarillo and Citra are in the commercial version of this beer... but there must be another Pacific NW hop that I could not identify. Emails to NG resulted in the standard "we hold our cards close to our vest" response. Cheers Beerheads!

I love this beer. And it will be the first session IPA I brew soon. Just read through the whole thread and wholeheartedly agree with the motueka sentiment, as i've used it before and I get a note of that hop. Not sure about nelson though.

This beer is so bright, clear, and light but also a tinge of sweet at the end for me. Any chance its got some honey malt in it, just a touch?

I only have 4 four Moon Man's left, and will wait on pins and needles for a brave soul to post the FG. I just can't spare a single ounce of this glorious brew!!!

For the sake of research, I just went down to my "on-deck" fridge and connected a cobra tap to this beer and pulled a sample. I have not done a side-by-side with Moon Man but I will shortly... I have about a case of it in my bar fridge. I will say this... the aroma is fantastic and very, very MM-like. Two things I notice: mine is slightly darker. I used 6 ounces of C60 in 5 gallons and it's just a little more orange than MM. Also, mine seems to be slightly more bitter than MM and I was really trying to go easy on that. I used FWH and then not again until 10 mins left in the boil. But I gotta say, for a first attempt, I could not be happier with how close this beer comes to the real thing. Here is my recipe, brewed on August 17, 2012.

Man In The Moon

9 lbs Briess 2-row Pale Malt
6 ounces Crystal 60
7.2 AAU of "HOP BLEND"* as a FWH
7.2 AAU of "HOP BLEND" for 10
7.2 AAU of "HOP BLEND" for 5
7.2 AAU of "HOP BLEND" for 2
7.2 AAU of "HOP BLEND" at flameout
Wyeast 1056 American Ale yeast

In secondary, I added .2 ounces of each of the 5 hops as a dry hop for 2 weeks. With 5 days left in that 2 weeks, I added another ½ oz of Motueka, Nelson Sauvin and Citra (1½ oz total) as a second dry hop for the last 5 days.

OG: 1.053, FG: 1.013, IBU: 36, SRM: 7, ABV: 5.2%

Hop blend went like this. I wanted to have equal parts of all the hops but the AA% was all over the place so I did it this way. The blend follows:

.13 ounces of Nelson at 11.8%
.10 ounces of Citra at 14.5%
.158 ounces of Amarillo at 9.2%
.20 ounces of Motueka at 7.2%
.11 ounces of Simcoe at 13%

This comes to approximately 7.2AAU for each of the additions. My FWH addition might have been too aggressive which is why my version is slightly more bitter than the commercial version. I would knock that back to a FWH addition of 5 AAU or less maybe. I would also use something like 4.5 or 5 ounces of C60. I know that's splitting hairs but that amount in 5 gallons would probably be right on target color-wise. Btw... I have a small digital scale that allows me to measure out hops in ounces or grams and making these nutty measurements is easy on this scale. If you had an analog scale, it might be a little trickier.

Does anyone actually think that the commercial version is not bittered AT ALL? Like all of the hops are added late in the boil and dry hop? The commercial version is so smooth and is not bitter in the least. I wonder if he just used all those late hops to balance things out and just create flavor and aroma. Thoughts?

I also think there are not hops longer than 30 minutes, and the majority or potentially all of the hops are late.

I'm kind of surprised with the amount of bitterness I ended up with. This one glass I had was also very cloudy and sedimented because I gelled the keg and all of that schputz came out in the first glass. I'm still thrilled with the beer but I really wonder if he just used so much in the late hop department that he could forgo the bittering/early additions altogether.

FWH will add a good amount of bittering. Seems like you are getting really close though. Send a bottle my way?

Seems like tre9r has the hop schedule and you have the hop blend. Perhaps a recipe that combines the two is the next step... ?

Personally I love MM as is, and can buy it cheap so I have no real interest in making a clone myself. I am really interested in the process folks go to experiment and reach a clone though.

The best way is to brew a lot and try to have experience with the various grains, hops and yeast and to know what character they bring to the beer. I have already made a beer in the spirit of Two Women which I also like a lot. I have made that beer three times and have had other local brewers sample mine right next to the real thing and they have agreed that it's spot on. I'm going to try to do something similar with Moon Man, if possible.

kenlenard said:

Does anyone actually think that the commercial version is not bittered AT ALL? Like all of the hops are added late in the boil and dry hop? The commercial version is so smooth and is not bitter in the least. I wonder if he just used all those late hops to balance things out and just create flavor and aroma. Thoughts?

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I vote for this. Plus more hops would be added compared to at FWH extending the hop flavor/aroma possible in a 20-30 IBU beer.

With speaking with my homebrew club, we have come to the conclusion that the five hop blend is most probably Moutueka, Amarillo, Citra, Willamette and Cascade. I have read and heard all kinds of articles with the brewers from Lagunitas talking about how Willamette in conjunction with bright citrus hops adds a hop complexity that I believe Moon Man to have. My personal clone was full of problems, least of all over bittering and lousy efficiency because of a change in process. I agree with the honey malt comment made above.

I just went back to my recipe & notes and my FWH addition was responsible for 18.4 IBUs. If I removed or lowered that addition, it would have to be made up late or the total IBUs would be much lower than they should be. This exotic creation I made is very good and the flavor and aroma are very MM-like, IMO but my bitterness (again, I was r-e-a-l-l-l-y trying to avoid a lot of bitterness in this beer b/c I knew the commercial version didn't have much or any) is bigger for sure. Still a good beer and an excellent learning tool in the quest to clone this beer. I will make it again if I can get all the hops and I will reformulate the hops. I suppose there's no reason to believe that we would be able to do this easily if it took Dan 6-months to put it together.

JimTheHick said:

I love this beer. And it will be the first session IPA I brew soon. Just read through the whole thread and wholeheartedly agree with the motueka sentiment, as i've used it before and I get a note of that hop. Not sure about nelson though.

This beer is so bright, clear, and light but also a tinge of sweet at the end for me. Any chance its got some honey malt in it, just a touch?

I only have 4 four Moon Man's left, and will wait on pins and needles for a brave soul to post the FG. I just can't spare a single ounce of this glorious brew!!!

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Mine has some sweetness to it. I used enough C60 to get somewhere between golden and amber and that adds some sweetness, as well. I bittered with Nugget because I love it. I think this adds a slightly sweet taste. Granted I know it's not a hope they likely use, but it gives a nice subtle hop flavor and generally smooth bitterness...plus I had it on hand.

I have Willamette on hand as well. Perhaps I will try the hop blend next time. The Pac Gem has some citrus/fruit notes to it, which is why I was able to forgo Citra or Cascade, Amarillo, etc. I think my hop schedule is pretty good, though. The key is that it makes a PA that has huge hop aroma/flavor and the NZ hops give it a profile normally not found in APAs.

kenlenard said:

Does anyone actually think that the commercial version is not bittered AT ALL? Like all of the hops are added late in the boil and dry hop? The commercial version is so smooth and is not bitter in the least. I wonder if he just used all those late hops to balance things out and just create flavor and aroma. Thoughts?

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I hop-bursted this with just 30m and down on the hops. I still got slightly more bittering than I wanted, and I think I'll FWH the next time as well as slightly reducing my first addition.

The late hops are the key to getting not only some bitterness, but as much flavor and aroma from your hops.

I'm thinking about the idea of not using ANY early hops. This idea would suggest that the grain bill (mine was nothing but Briess pale malt and C60) should be straightforward and that the mash temp should be relatively low so that you don't have to worry about a sweet, malty or complex grain bill sticking out like a sore thumb. You have nothing to offset the sweetness so a dry(ish) beer is critical. A 150-151° mash temp, no early hops at all, enough hops added in the last 10-15 mins to get the IBUs to 35ish and the dry hop... this is what I'm thinking. Of course, I could just be living in an alternate universe too!