First go at AG... FAIL.

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PvtSkippy

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(This could probably go into Drunken Ramblings...)

Well, perhaps not total fail, but the end result wasn't what I had hoped for.

My wife (I got a good one. Yes she has a sister, but I wouldn't wish her on my worst enemy) bought me one of Midwest Supplies MLT conversions, probably so I'd stop whining about being restricted to extract brewing. Today was it's inaugural voyage, figured I'd start simple and try my hand at BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde. A beautiful day to brew, to be sure... 65 degrees and not a cloud in the sky.

I read, re-read and printed Bobby_M's AG primer, had my BeerSmtih brewsheet on a clipboard, had hops premeasured and bagged, Irish Moss laid out, the carboy was sanitized, backup tank of propane at the ready. I even decided to try out Jamil's secret weapon of tying the little goat statue from a Ayinger's Celebrator bottle onto my MLT. Fat lot of good that did me.

Dumped the required amount of water into the MLT, let it heat up and dumped the grain at 166F. The mash went well, only lost a couple degrees. Vorlaufed and drained the runnings into my kettle. Started the batch sparge and was just having a good ole time. Ended up with right at seven gallons in the kettle (I have a wide, fat kettle and tend to boil off more than normal). I was really digging the whole AG thing. Drew off a sample to measure my pre-boil gravity and started the boil.

Well, that's where the sinking feeling started. Dropped the hydrometer into the sample. BeerSmith said I should be around 1.034... "Hmm, that's odd, I'm at 1.022. WTF?" Checked the temp, nope, that's spot on 60F. Double checked the hydrometer, spun it, set it on a level table... 1.022. :mad:

Rather than start a "Where did I screw up?" thread, I'll tell you exactly where I screwed up... I was following my brewsheet which told me to sparge at 168F. Well, rather than taking into account that my grain was colder and that my water needed to be hotter to raise the entire mass to 168F, my stupid ass sparged with 168F water. Needless to say, my efficiency sucked...sucked to the point where I don't even want to calculate it as I'd probably just hang my head in shame. I suppose the bright spot in all of this is that I know what I did wrong and can correct it next time.

BierMuncher, sir, I apologize for butchering your recipe. Hopefully it will still be tasty, even at 2.9% ABV. And Bobby_M, thanks for the guidance, even if I was too thick to follow your directions more closely. I'll try harder next time. :mug:
 
Your starch-sugar conversion happens during the mash. The higher sparge temp is to stop the mash. A low sparge temp should allow a longer mash than scheduled and an increased OG.

I'd look at your grain bill, water volume, and the possibly of a poorly mixed sample for answers.
 
That sucks!

I think bobby_M says to use 185dF for sparge water in his all-grain primer!

What I do is heat my sparge water to 185df (I do the double sparge method) and by the time the first sparge is done, my sparge water is cooled off a bit (around 180df) and then I use that for my second sparge. I find that turning off the heat to the HLT when you are on your first sparge is perfect because I find that if I keep it at 185df and sparge the grain bed temperature will go past the magic 170df.

good luck on your next brew!
 
Your starch-sugar conversion happens during the mash. The higher sparge temp is to stop the mash. A low sparge temp should allow a longer mash than scheduled and an increased OG.

I'd look at your grain bill, water volume, and the possibly of a poorly mixed sample for answers.

the higher temp of the sparge is also required to more easily rinse the sugars out of the mash(hotter=thinner wort)

and don't worry about the bad first showing, everybody does poorly the first goround(mine was ed's hpa and i got about 45%)
 
ive been brewing for a while now and i just brewed this same recipe last week- its fermenting as we speak. My efficiency has been hovering right around the high 70's and this recipe (wheat is a *****) has me around low 60's. I ended up adding DME tyo get my sample up to the desired SG. My advice for you is to always mash longer with wheat and check for starch conversion using iodine. Either way my efficnecy always sucks (we have the same setup) with wheat. Oh and keep DME on hand so you can adjust if you come in low grav. Better luck next time
 
Once your grains were doughed in, did you check the temp of the grain bed?

Did you check at all during the mash and give the bed a stir to prevent cold spots?

Could be mash temp problems. Doing partial mashes and now doing my all grain this last weekend has made me not trust any of my thermometers :eek:
 
ive been brewing for a while now and i just brewed this same recipe last week- its fermenting as we speak. My efficiency has been hovering right around the high 70's and this recipe (wheat is a *****) has me around low 60's. I ended up adding DME tyo get my sample up to the desired SG. My advice for you is to always mash longer with wheat and check for starch conversion using iodine. Either way my efficnecy always sucks (we have the same setup) with wheat. Oh and keep DME on hand so you can adjust if you come in low grav. Better luck next time

when i do wheat i run it thru the crusher twice, once by itself then again with base grains. it keeps my efficiency up and doesn't cause a stuck sparge as often as crushing it finer does(use rice hulls or 6row also)
 
Pvtskippy - bloke, HTFU.

Not everything goes to plan. A few too many beers while brewing, premature ejectulation .. whatever.

many brewers have stuffed up (and as in your case, when rarely under pressure - though self pressure is almost certainly the worst kind).

Few brewers can say they have never done what you have done (a good old fashioned stuff up). Solutions though are real easy and you should not be embarassed to do them.

1. Keep going. As you said, a low alcohol beer aint all bad. Americans have been drinking them for years now.

2. The first AG should be a learning curve. Low OG - add sugar or malt extract to get to your required / perceived recommended OG. Struth, I do the same now after mobs of AG - gravity too low ?? .. add sugar / malt. I work on the principle that I'm the only bugger who will know.

3. Next time you stuff up and you know it - it aint no badge of honour to tell the world you are a goose. Man, we feel your pain at missing out on a fantastic first AG experience, but frankly, we don't need to know.

So now you are here with the big boys, no more whinging at your own stupidity. You stuffed up, put it down to experience and get back on that horse again. When you start brewing award winning beers, remember this advice and send me a few brews through the mail.
 
when i do wheat i run it thru the crusher twice, once by itself then again with base grains. it keeps my efficiency up and doesn't cause a stuck sparge as often as crushing it finer does(use rice hulls or 6row also)

unfortunatly some of us dont have the money or space for a crusher. personally im running out of room as it is however feel free to make a donation to bank of me.
 
Fatgodzilla - hear, hear. A touch blunt, perhaps, but accurate. And I've always understood Australians to be plain-spoken chaps, so good on yer. ;)

Mr Skippy - Brewing can often be an inexact science. Moreover, there are dozens of different aspects of the process that can bite you in the ass. The only reliable way to deal with those things is though the long, hard road of experience. Even then it's best to write everything down. :D I've been brewing since 1994 and recognized quite early on that the learning curve was steep; and guess what? I still engage in a right cockup from time to time. Stuck sparges, boilovers, they still happen.

It's part of the pursuit of great beer. Put a 10 XP bonus on your character sheet for confessing your sins. You've already made 2nd Level! [/D&D references]

:mug:

Bob
 
the higher temp of the sparge is also required to more easily rinse the sugars out of the mash(hotter=thinner wort)

True, but with a heated grain bed, mash tun, and an infusion of 168°F sparge water, it should have been plenty warm to adequately dissolve the sugars. Particularly with a low gravity wort like that. I woudl expect the cooler temps to account for a point or two, but 0.012? That's a whole lot of sugars left behind. My money's still on a problem in the mash (Crush, grain bill, dough balls, temp), incomplete mixing, or water volume.
 
What was the gravity after the boil? If BeerSmith is giving you 1.034 OG for a 5 gallon batch, then it will certainly be lower if you measure at 7 gallons
 
unfortunatly some of us dont have the money or space for a crusher. personally im running out of room as it is however feel free to make a donation to bank of me.

I picked up a Corona off of ebay for around $30. Hook it up to a 1/2" drill and put some washers in for spacers and was good. My first AG rang in at 78%. I have space issues too, and this stores nicely inside the HLT.
 
Temp has a huge effect. I was lazy on the temps last winter and all else being equal, I lost 10%. My equalized grain bed temp never got over 155F after the sparge infusions and I got 78% efficiency when I normally get 88%.

I do agree that other factors may also be involved, but I wouldn't discount the temp issue.
 
What was the gravity after the boil? If BeerSmith is giving you 1.034 OG for a 5 gallon batch, then it will certainly be lower if you measure at 7 gallons

This was my thought as well. OP, did you enter your boil volume in BS? If not I believe the default value is smaller than your boil off numbers. What was your OG (after boil and cooling)? Maybe you were not off at all.

Does BM's blonde have wheat in it? I always do step mashes when using wheat and have never had efficiency problems. I think that really helps. My usual mash schedule is 99/122/145º and I am happy with the results.
 
Well, to answer some of the questions in hopes of getting some clearer answers of my own...

The grain bill: Straight from the recipe - 7# Pale Malt, .75# Cara-Pils, .5# Caramel/Crystal, .5# Vienna Malt

The mash: When I dumped in the grains I stirred for several minutes. My initial temp ranged from 152-154. I stirred more in hopes of getting the temp level and getting it to an even 151. It looked well mixed to me, but of course I had no frame of reference. I held pretty steady at 150 until the last 20m or so.

Pre-boil gravity: I took my sample after stirring the kettle. Maybe it wasn't totally combined and homogeneous yet. As far as BeerSmith's calcs went, I was shooting for 6.89 gallons so that's what BeerSmith used to estimate my pre-boil gravity.

OG: Came in at 1.031-1.032, depending on which eye I used to read the hydrometer.

Don't get me wrong, fellas, I have no urge to give up. I guess after a pint or six I just needed to vent to folks that would understand what I was talking about. But, the second batch of grain is ready to go now. The only thing I'm going to change this time is making sure my sparge water is at the correct temp...if I change too many things I won't know what was the key.

Either way, if it goes well, I'll be happy. If I hose it up again, rest assured I'll just "Have a Coke and a smile and STFU."
 
1. Keep going. As you said, a low alcohol beer aint all bad. Americans have been drinking them for years now.

+1

Definitely there is nothing wrong with brewing a lower alcohol beer. I think I'm in the low 90s every try. This weekend I hit .062 on a grain bill of 9.5#, no special technique -- simple 60 minute mash near 152F, 1 simple sparge just dumped in 4 gallons at maybe 175f. Back of the envelope calculation I figure thats what 92% efficiency ? Should come out close to 6.5% - I was hoping for like 5% but I can live with that.

Probably not a great example of a lower alcohol beer, but I just thought of this since I was discussing it with a local brewer I know just recently. It seems there is less opportunity to "mess up" if you go with smaller beers. Put another way, smaller beers have more room for error ??

The great thing about a lower alcohol beer is you can more easily have a few.
 
Temp has a huge effect. I was lazy on the temps last winter and all else being equal, I lost 10%. My equalized grain bed temp never got over 155F after the sparge infusions and I got 78% efficiency when I normally get 88%.

True, but his numbers are showing a ~36% drop...

OG: Came in at 1.031-1.032, depending on which eye I used to read the hydrometer.

I assume you mean post-boil? Didn't you say that your target was 1.034? Sounds to me like you were pretty well on target for this brew.
 
I assume you mean post-boil? Didn't you say that your target was 1.034? Sounds to me like you were pretty well on target for this brew.

Yep, sounds like you did just fine. If this is your first brew, it will definitely take some dialing in to get your system tweaked and working just how you want it. If you were off by 2 pints on your first try I think you should be very happy with yourself. Good job!:mug:
 
I assume you mean post-boil? Didn't you say that your target was 1.034? Sounds to me like you were pretty well on target for this brew.

Yes, 1.031 was my post-boil gravity. According to BS, I should have been in the 1.039-1.040 range. All of the calcs were based on 70% efficiency. Nothing to dump the batch over, just lower than I had hoped.
 
I used to never mashout, grainbed would be 150-155F during the sparge, got 78% eff. I dont think sparge temp here is the culprit. Not a 30% reduction.
 
I picked up a Corona off of ebay for around $30. Hook it up to a 1/2" drill and put some washers in for spacers and was good. My first AG rang in at 78%. I have space issues too, and this stores nicely inside the HLT.

Currently im using the LHBS or AHB stores for grain and my efficiency has been limited by that (possibly?) I hear crush is everything but so far i can afford a mill. Maybe corona's the way to go.
Definitely there is nothing wrong with brewing a lower alcohol beer. I think I'm in the low 90s every try. This weekend I hit .062 on a grain bill of 9.5#, no special technique -- simple 60 minute mash near 152F, 1 simple sparge just dumped in 4 gallons at maybe 175f. Back of the envelope calculation I figure thats what 92% efficiency ? Should come out close to 6.5% - I was hoping for like 5% but I can live with that.

Whats yours technique? Ive been striving for even over 80.... If anything my efficiency pails in comparison. What equipment are you using, how many degrees you drop usually during mash. Do you open to stir during mash? Also in the beer do you find that mashout at 175 has tannin's coming through in flavor?
 
Whats yours technique? Ive been striving for even over 80.... If anything my efficiency pails in comparison.

Nothing particularly unusual about my technique as far as I know. I do something like (1.3*pounds of grain)/4 to come up with how much water to use. I heat my water to 160F on my stove and then mash with it. I hope to get the mash about 152F but I don't really worry about being higher or lower that much. I might try for higher or lower depending on the recipe - generally I come out pretty close to what I guestimate for the temp to be, and if I miss by a degree or so I don't fret over it.

Once I get the water and the grain in, I give it a good stir put the lid on it and then go drink and read this forum, maybe watch football or something for an hour or more. Drain it all out, while heating some more water to about 170-175 - when its hot I dump it in and keep draining till I get 7.5-8 gallons in the kettle.

Thats basically it. Nothing unusual.

What equipment are you using, how many degrees you drop usually during mash.

Typical homemade 5 gallon Igloo MLT, no idea how many degrees it drops during the mash - I used to open it and stir and stuff like that, now I just dump the water and grain in there, stir it till I'm sure its all wet, check the initial temperature and make sure I'm close to 152ish, then close it up and do something else for an hour or so.

Do you open to stir during mash?

No, I don't bother with. Once I've got it in there and I'm satisifed that I'm close to the temp I want to be at then I go do something else and wait. Usually at least an hour, possibly more - I'm not sitting by a clock watching the time or anything. If I'm busy doing something else it will possibly sit there longer than an hour. At least an hour is the only rule I try and follow.

Also in the beer do you find that mashout at 175 has tannin's coming through in flavor?

I have not noticed anything like that.
 
Hey, my first couple of AG batches where pretty poor in EFF! So much so I was getting really tee-d off.
There are a couple hundred threads here on it, all I can say is up your base grains by a pound for now while you dial in your equipment, process, water volumes etc. Once you get some consistency you know where you stand and can adjust your recipes.
Just don't give up, you can do it.
 
Your sparge water should be around 170. According to both Jim Palmer's "How to Brew" and Charlie Papazian's "The Joys of Home Brewing" your sparge water should be between 170-180. The fact that yours was at 168 was probably not that big of a factor in your low efficiency....

Like all things worth learning, it takes time and patience to get better at something. Stick with it. Drink your low ABV beers, drink your tastes-like-syrup beers, drink them all and in time they will be delicious!
 
Wow, somehow I missed page 2 & 3 of this thread, didn't realize till after I posted! Nothing like double redundancy!
 
Pvtskippy - Actually, you did well for your first AG. For 5g at 1.034 your preboil at 7g is 1.024. (My first AG ended up with a post boil SG of 1.047 when it should have been 1.059 - the hops were out of balance from what I wanted to do but I still drank all of it. Gleefully.) Sounds like you oversparged a bit but whatever. Anyone you give it to will be impressed and it will still get you drunk. Maybe one extra trip to the bathroom than you're used to but you'll still get there.

Remember - if it was easy, anyone could do it. Cut yourself some slack - you AG'd. That's a big deal.

AG is a continuously flexing learning curve. Every batch teaches something. The lesson isn't over until after you drink the beer, though. Before you declare failure, get a few bottles under your belt. The true measure of what you did is guaged by your palate, not the hydrometer.

In the meantime, congrats on your first AG. And welcome, Brother Pvtskippy, to the obsessive tinkering and questioning of extraction efficiencies.


Gordie
 
Your sparge water should be around 170. According to both Jim Palmer's "How to Brew" and Charlie Papazian's "The Joys of Home Brewing" your sparge water should be between 170-180.

In order for me to get grainbed temps up to 168f I sparge with 190f water. I do an equal split sparge.
 
Yes, 1.031 was my post-boil gravity. According to BS, I should have been in the 1.039-1.040 range. All of the calcs were based on 70% efficiency. Nothing to dump the batch over, just lower than I had hoped.

Many, MANY people have crappy efficiency at first. Gotta crawl before you can walk, before you can run.

A bad crush, water that doesn't give you an ideal pH for ideal conversion, not sparging well enough (I highly recommend two batch sparges of equal volume...really rinse those sugars out of the grain)...so many variables.

Definitely not a failure my friend...just an experience to learn from. I'm lucky to get 75% efficiency.
 
In order for me to get grainbed temps up to 168f I sparge with 190f water. I do an equal split sparge.

Right, but you only need to get your grain up to 168 to do a mash out. That really isn't necessary. If you sparge with water that hot you risk tannin extraction. Which really isn't that big of a deal, just a point of clarification. :mug:
 
Many, MANY people have crappy efficiency at first. Gotta crawl before you can walk, before you can run.

A bad crush, water that doesn't give you an ideal pH for ideal conversion, not sparging well enough (I highly recommend two batch sparges of equal volume...really rinse those sugars out of the grain)...so many variables.

I've noticed these threads on low effeciency don't have enough responses about crush....So maybe I need to rant about crush!!! At least with my own experiences, I've found that crush is the #1 factor. When I've measured PH of my local water, its been in good ranges for brewing...so I don't know if other sources have that much of an effect.

The most important thing is having the proper mash temp....mashout just stops sugar conversion, so I don't think its temp has that much to do with efficiency (other then stopping). If you want higher efficiency, I'd first see if you can grind the grains finer....depends on your setup, but with a false bottom, I find I can get pretty fine.
 
Pvtskippy - Actually, you did well for your first AG. For 5g at 1.034 your preboil at 7g is 1.024. (My first AG ended up with a post boil SG of 1.047 when it should have been 1.059 - the hops were out of balance from what I wanted to do but I still drank all of it. Gleefully.) Sounds like you oversparged a bit but whatever. Anyone you give it to will be impressed and it will still get you drunk. Maybe one extra trip to the bathroom than you're used to but you'll still get there.

Remember - if it was easy, anyone could do it. Cut yourself some slack - you AG'd. That's a big deal.

AG is a continuously flexing learning curve. Every batch teaches something. The lesson isn't over until after you drink the beer, though. Before you declare failure, get a few bottles under your belt. The true measure of what you did is guaged by your palate, not the hydrometer.

In the meantime, congrats on your first AG. And welcome, Brother Pvtskippy, to the obsessive tinkering and questioning of extraction efficiencies.


Gordie

amen and again welcome to the real obsession. the extract only is like making campbells condensed soup:D

I've noticed these threads on low effeciency don't have enough responses about crush....So maybe I need to rant about crush!!! At least with my own experiences, I've found that crush is the #1 factor. When I've measured PH of my local water, its been in good ranges for brewing...so I don't know if other sources have that much of an effect.

The most important thing is having the proper mash temp....mashout just stops sugar conversion, so I don't think its temp has that much to do with efficiency (other then stopping). If you want higher efficiency, I'd first see if you can grind the grains finer....depends on your setup, but with a false bottom, I find I can get pretty fine.

what you use on the bottom of your mastun isn't important for the crush, what matters is the crush. too fine and the wort just sits there like water on a clay surface, too coarse and it flows like water thru gravel, the key is to find the balance between the 2 extremes that allows you to get maximum sugars within a reasonable time frame(even clay eventually drains it just may take days)
 
Not sure if someone said this already, but did you adjust your hydro reading for temp?
 
what you use on the bottom of your mastun isn't important for the crush, what matters is the crush. too fine and the wort just sits there like water on a clay surface, too coarse and it flows like water thru gravel, the key is to find the balance between the 2 extremes that allows you to get maximum sugars within a reasonable time frame(even clay eventually drains it just may take days)

Agreed that amount of crush is a balance. Just that I've found with my setups, that I can get a finer grind with a false bottom then with a braid. I'll tend to get more stuck sparges with a fine grind with braid....actually haven't ever had a stuck sparge with false bottom.
 
I think another point that should be stressed is that if you are truly shooting for a particular OG you should keep some DME or LME on hand for just such an occasion. You get 38 GUs per pound from the LME and 45 from the DME. Based on your numbers you were around 40 GUs short so 1 lb of LME would have brought you up to right around 1.040.

My first batch was 50%, my second was 60%, my third was 70% . . . At $.65 / lb for base malt I am happy with 70% so I won't mess with my technique from here.
 
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