Wyeast lager pitching temp

Why does my 2206 smack pack say to pitch at 65 to 72, but I've read that all the pros pitch at lager fermenting temps?

I pitched at a slightly higher lager temp of 55°, two days ago. Glass carboy has zero activity. I bought a second smack pack now and is now fully expanded. Should I let the temp rise to the suggested pitching temp?

It recommended pitching warm because at the warmer temps, the yeast can grow and replicate faster...so you pitch warm and then once there is activity, start bringing it down to the suggested primary temps in the 50's. Pros have yeast starters and pitch high amounts of yeast, so probably don't have to worry, no have the time to do it the other way.

Is this your first lager, I don't think you pitched enough yeast. One smack pack is not enough for a lager unless you made a starter. What was your starting gravity? Using MrMalty.com yeast calculator, just for example, a lager at 1.054 OG would need 3.9 packages if not doing a starter and if the yeast pack's date was today. With a starter, you would have needed two packs at that OG.

Try bringing the temp up to 60's, pitch the 2nd pack and shake the carboy to get oxygen in there and to roust the yeast that is already in there. Then once activity takes place, bring down to lager primary stage temp which I assume is low 50's, You still may not have enough yeast depending on your OG, but the two packs should go to work and while it may take a few more days to ferment.

By pitching warm, you are trading a fast start for beer quality and IME it just isn't worth it. I always chill lagers to below my intended fermentation temp before pitching. It has improved my lagers a lot to do that.

And I agree that you seriously underpitched. For my average gravity lagers I usually make at least a 4 qt. starter.

This was my first lager indeed, and I've learned my lesson. I plan to buy a stir plate and follow mrmalty next time.

So I raised the carboy to 63°, and chilled the second yeast pack to 63°, then pitched. Raised to 65°. 24 hours later there is moderate activity and 0.75 inch of THICK krausen going. I set the temp to 60, now 12 hrs later down to 57. Hopefully activity does not slow. If it does not, I will continue to lower to 53°. I figure the warmer temps will balance the lack of yeast and starter. I just hope the offflavors are low since activity was low. I will find out soon enough.

Any pointers, helpful direction?

Thanks for the help guys!

OG was 1.048 , I will have to measure FG when activity ends. now I'm curious, if I add more yeast again when I prime and bottle, will there be too much sugars. I guess I'll have to wait for FG and research this more.

Thanks again!

WildTex said:

This was my first lager indeed, and I've learned my lesson. I plan to buy a stir plate and follow mrmalty next time.

So I raised the carboy to 63°, and chilled the second yeast pack to 63°, then pitched. Raised to 65°. 24 hours later there is moderate activity and 0.75 inch of THICK krausen going. I set the temp to 60, now 12 hrs later down to 57. Hopefully activity does not slow. If it does not, I will continue to lower to 53°. I figure the warmer temps will balance the lack of yeast and starter. I just hope the offflavors are low since activity was low. I will find out soon enough.

Any pointers, helpful direction?

Thanks for the help guys!

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So here's your dilemma now that you pitched warm: You want to get it to fermentation temp of 53° (although I'd suggest below 50F) quickly otherwise you're essentially making an ale, BUT if you lower the temps too fast, the yeast will say "oh cool it's time to go to sleep, goodnight." The "books" say you shouldn't reduce temps more than 3-4F per day because of that. So by the time you get down to 50F, your fermentation is mostly done!!

So the moral of the story: pitch cold, not warm. This batch will probably taste ok, but you can do better.

Stir plates are great, but don't wait to get one to begin making starters. I made starters for years before I got a stir plate.

well, when your fermentation is done you will get a great yeast harvest from your 1.048 beer. as long as your sanitation was good you can pitch that directly into a bigger lager for your next brew. when i use this yeast i have ended up doing 2 big stepped starters for a mid gravity beer, then i don't want to throw out all that hard-earned yeast so i plan a few lagers back to back. by the way i also pitch cold (9-10C), lots of yeast, lots of O2, and the lag time isn't so long.

You might also consider a diacetyl rest (raising the temperature back UP about 10 degrees when fermentation is mostly done). The surest way to time this is by taking a hyrometer reading, but you can guess at it by when the bubbling slows significantly.

You may also want to leave your beer on your yeast for a while to let them continue to work on it (always a risk, but I think it is worth it in this case. They will clean up some off flavors, and you will want lots of them to do that).

And you will want to lager your beer (at 33-40 degrees) for a few weeks.

All these things are normal lager practice, and they work for me. I exclusively make lagers.

Good news is I'm down to 54° now and she's bubbling and churning better than ever!
I'm planning a diacetyl rest as soon as the bubbles stop.
Should I take hydrometer reading before the rest? Drink the test brew for taste and no waste?

Also, sounds like its time for my research on farming yeast off the cake... and optimum diacetyl rests.

Thanks again to all help!

I generally take a gravity sample at about 2-3 weeks and taste it. If I taste diacetyl, I do the rest. If I don't taste it, I skip it. I use 2206 more than any other lager yeast and I have never needed a d rest with it. Taht's one of the reasons I use it so much.

You can use the hydrometer to determine when to start the diacetyl rest. As to precisely when to do the rest, I quote White Labs' web site:

"Usually the diacetyl rest is begun when the beer is 2 to 5 specific gravity points away from the target terminal gravity."

But as I mentioned earlier, you can also eyeball it. Things slow considerably. It's about time.

Good luck. Lagers are a challenge--and that's part of the satisfaction of brewing them.

Denny said:

Stir plates are great, but don't wait to get one to begin making starters. I made starters for years before I got a stir plate.

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Denny and all, you have me wondering now, (now that I have stepped out of desperation mode) , how much does a stir plate even help? If I give the starter a good swirl a few times a day is that not sufficient? Is a stir plate more of the"hobby" factor?
What has your experience been?

WildTex said:

Denny and all, you have me wondering now, (now that I have stepped out of desperation mode) , how much does a stir plate even help? If I give the starter a good swirl a few times a day is that not sufficient? Is a stir plate more of the"hobby" factor?
What has your experience been?

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Think I answered my own question. Found this mr. malty:
"In my tests, vigorously shaking a starter every hour resulted in approximately double the number of cells versus a non-shaken starter and a stir plate resulted in a 40% gain over a shaken starter.*"

You're asking the right questions. As you do lagers, pitching rate matters more (because of the need for such a clean taste in the beer). So a stir plate helps you get there.

WildTex said:

Think I answered my own question. Found this mr. malty:
"In my tests, vigorously shaking a starter every hour resulted in approximately double the number of cells versus a non-shaken starter and a stir plate resulted in a 40% gain over a shaken starter.*"

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Not only that, but I find that a stir late cuts 2-3 days off the time it takes to get a starter ready. Still, I probably wouldn't have started using one if someone hadn't given me one they didn't need.

Gmesick - I'm curious on your comment of "leaving it on the yeast cake".

After 5 solid days of good fermentation at 50°, it slowed and the krausen fell. I raised the temp to 60 (for d rest), and bubbles increased and continued for two days. Today is the third day and krausen is disappearing and I get one bubble every 15 seconds.

Should I rack after bubbles cease?
Decrease temp and let sit on the cake?
Give it an extra day at 60° ?

Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks to all in advance!

WildTex said:

Gmesick - I'm curious on your comment of "leaving it on the yeast cake".

After 5 solid days of good fermentation at 50°, it slowed and the krausen fell. I raised the temp to 60 (for d rest), and bubbles increased and continued for two days. Today is the third day and krausen is disappearing and I get one bubble every 15 seconds.

Should I rack after bubbles cease?
Decrease temp and let sit on the cake?
Give it an extra day at 60° ?

Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks to all in advance!

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All bubbles tell you is that CO2 is coming out of solution. That could be for any of several reasons. Take a gravity reading so you'll know what's going on.

WildTex said:

Gmesick - I'm curious on your comment of "leaving it on the yeast cake".

After 5 solid days of good fermentation at 50°, it slowed and the krausen fell. I raised the temp to 60 (for d rest), and bubbles increased and continued for two days. Today is the third day and krausen is disappearing and I get one bubble every 15 seconds.

Should I rack after bubbles cease?
Decrease temp and let sit on the cake?
Give it an extra day at 60° ?

Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks to all in advance!

Click to expand...

I say lower and leave it for another week.

Longer answer: Because I siphon from brew pot to conical fermentor, I leave my break material behind, and I have any trub down in the cone, so I have pretty clean yeast in contact with my beer in my primary. Generally, I leave lagers to ferment for at least two weeks. If the weekend comes and I see any benefit in leaving it for a third week, I do (in the primary)--I drop the temp and let it sit. Then I rack to a secondary and put it in my lagering fridge. My experience tells me that the extra yeast cleaning up diacetyl etc does more good than any off flavors that the yeast/trub may cause.

Of course, you can take SG readings and be precise. I tend to avoid touching my beer once it ferments, even to take readings (except as part of bottling). I don't use a thermowell (believing Jamil Z that attaching it to the side gives just as accurate readings). All these decisions involve tradeoffs. Good luck!

Thanks guys. I just measured FG at 1.019. That is just inside my recipe FG limits. So I would assume it can go just a hair more.
And when I say "assume",, you guessed it, I'm a fool learning his lesson. I measured the OG in the brew pot after 1 hour of sparging. I should have mixed up the wort, instead I measured 1.047. I wonder what the reading would have been if I wasn't just measuring the thin wort on top?

Anyway, Taste is better than I expected. Can't say I have an experienced palet for diacetyl, I don't really feel a buttery effect.
I'll give her a few more days and rack.

Guess I should call this batch the cherry popper lager.

WildTex said:

... I measured the OG in the brew pot after 1 hour of sparging. I should have mixed up the wort, instead I measured 1.047. I wonder what the reading would have been if I wasn't just measuring the thin wort on top?....

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Did you mean to say "boiling" instead of "sparging"? OG has to be measured after the boil, not before.

Did you mean to say "boiling" instead of "sparging"? OG has to be measured after the boil, not before.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for pointing out the obvious ... But for some reason, as this was my first all grain, I must have been so excited to take a measurement asap. Seriously, thanks for the comment, I don't want to do that again. I'm amazed I didn't realize this already! 6.5 gal at 1.047 should be more once boiled down to 5 gal. Now to find some calculations. Geeze what else have I done wrong? Ha!

Correcting the SG using boil volumes will get you in the ballpark, but you're introducing a lot of error due to your volume measurements. Not sure how much the changes during the boil (e.g. trub formation) affects SG. At any rate, just realize your calculated OG will be +/- a few points so don't put too much stock in it.

You can use the hydrometer reading to time the rest--it will show you when fermentation is 2/3 or so done. Or you can wait until the bubbles slow.

And (sorry if this is obvious), to get your final gravity, you will still need another hydrometer reading when you suspect it is really done fermenting. When? Well, after the primary will get you close. Then if you lager for a month, yeast is still working on your beer, but it probably won't change enough to make a difference.