My response from Shiner/Spoetzl Brewery

I recently tried to send a letter via snail mail to the Spoetzl Brewery about cloning their delicious Shiner Ruby Redbird seasonal beer, the discussion about this clone can be found in another thread. After searching for half an hour on the internet I sent the letter to what I thought was the correct address, only to find out a week later that it was only the physical address, apparently they have a P.O. box and don't want anyone contacting them via snail mail, so I would advise anyone that wants to, give up!!

I decided to send them an e-mail through the "contact us" option on their what I found to be poorly made website. The following is our correspondence:

"Hello, I have been trying like crazy to clone your Ruby Redbird Beer. Any information would be greatly appreicated, such as hop schedule, recomendation for lager yeast, FG, grapefruit juice ratio, anything!! The batches I made were great but not even close to what you guys brew!! I brew 5 gallon batches. Thanks in advance, Eric"

"Hi Eric, Thank you for your interest in Shiner Beers. We are very excited that you chose to use to clone Shiner Ruby Redbird. Because we are a privately owned company, any and all information is proprietary. We appreciate your understanding and wish you good luck with your home brewing. If you haven't already visited the Spoetzl Brewery, come and see us....we'll save a cold one for you!! Anne Raabe Public Relations Representative"

I know I know before anyone says so, what business do I have asking a professional brewery how to make a beer that THEY make? Well, I thought it couldn't hurt to ask. I write letters to companies all the time and you'd be surprised at how eager some are to reply and help with any questions I have. I would have gone on to tell Shiner how much I love their beers, and how I buy them on a regular basis and have since I was of drinking age, but the text box was so small I had to choose my words carefully.

I feel let down, disappointed even. Come and see the brewery? Ya I'm really excited about that now. Pfff.

Anyone else ever ask a brewery for help cloning a beer, or just wrote in to say thanks?

shiner isn't about to tell any of their secrets. i live in texas, and even in-state, it's still considered (and priced at) an import. my neighbor, when he can't get my brew, buys shiner at $10 a 6 pack just a few miles up the road in the same state as the brewery

Ya here in Arkansas it's higher than a cat's back too.

Don't take it personally. It's cool when the pros share their recipes with the amateurs, but I don't think it's fair to expect it. If anything, I bet a far greater fraction of the pro brewers would respond with advice than almost any other food industry.

Shiner in particular is big enough that I can't say I'm surprised that they declined to comment. I'd give them a point for at least reading your email.

not talking bad about them for not divulging secrets. it's their recipe/process, so they can keep it secret. what i still can't understand is why they are forced to price it as an import (yes, i've read the regulations)

shiner was once a great company. i've been not at all impressed by them for a long time now. as much as it pains me to say, i look forward to watching their downfall.

estricklin said:

I feel let down, disappointed even. Come and see the brewery? Ya I'm really excited about that now. Pfff.

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Your expectations are too high and it makes you sound like a jerk.

I wrote Vinnie Cilurzo at Russian River asking for his excellent Consecration recipe. I got a long email with all the ingredients and process.

My local brewery, Cigar City, helped me make a clone of one of their Humidor Series IPAs. They even gave me the Spanish cedar spirals to do it (thanks to Wayne Wambles the head brewer).

I'm really surprised at how giving the breweries are. The industry is mostly exceptionally open.

Shiner is owned by Gambrinus. They aren't exactly the tiny brewery they like to portray.

Shiner was one of my gateway beers and it's not a terrible option when it's Shiner, SA, or BMC somewhere (which is very common). The black lager is actually pretty good and some of the annual beers were quite exceptional. They even used to make a great kolsch. So, I don't have any hate for them but it's definitely the worst brewery tour ever. They give you like a five minute explanation of the beer, tell you not to touch the kettles and show you the bottling line from behind glass windows. You don't even go in the brew house. You just see the kettles from the chimneys that come through the guest area above the brew house where they let you hang out. Then they kick you out and give you samples. So that's the good part. The building itself is interesting, there's a chapel but I couldn't figure out what it's used for. The gift shop/tasting room has some interesting Shiner stuff you can buy. Oddly enough you can only drink in one place in town and it's a bar/antique shop. The owner is very nice. Sadly Shiner is not sold any cheaper at the stores in town than it is anywhere else in the state.

passedpawn said:

I wrote Vinnie Cilurzo at Russian River asking for his excellent Consecration recipe. I got a long email with all the ingredients and process.

My local brewery, Cigar City, helped me make a clone of one of their Humidor Series IPAs. They even gave me the Spanish cedar spirals to do it (thanks to Wayne Wambles the head brewer).

I'm really surprised at how giving the breweries are. The industry is mostly exceptionally open.

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This was my impression.

Here is what I'm thinking, I'm going to write some other breweries just to see what happens. Maybe I'll get the same response, won't cost me anything but a stamp to try.

Anybody got any ideas on what breweries I should start with? The smaller ones are probably more likely to help. There is a small one in Arkansas called Diamond Bear, think I'll give them a try. I will start a new thread called "Brewery Responses" when I, if I get a reply back from any and I will link this thread in it.

I emailed green flash about palatte wrecker and they never even responded....

Other than palate wrecker it won't be hard to avoid buying their summit laden schwill

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Shiner is owned by Gambrinus. They aren't exactly the tiny brewery they like to portray.

Shiner was one of my gateway beers and it's not a terrible option when it's Shiner, SA, or BMC somewhere (which is very common). The black lager is actually pretty good and some of the annual beers were quite exceptional. They even used to make a great kolsch. So, I don't have any hate for them but it's definitely the worst brewery tour ever. ........

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Same thoughts, plus, they don't allow photography in the brewery. Like I was going to steal their trade secrets by taking pictures of the brew kettles!

I have always found Shiner at the low end of the price scale, 5.99 a 6er is pretty common, sometimes on sale for 5.49, but usually only find bock. I buy the variety 12 packs for around 10.99.

On one hand I understand the brewery's stance but......unless they gave you extremely detailed notes or you are an extremely talented homebrewer you won't be able to clone. Get close yes....clone no. I think their position comes from a legal/business standpoint. I bet if you were to meet one of the brewers in an informal situation he would be able to help you out. Places like Russian River are brewer owned so they "get it" and I bet would be stoked if some homebrewer was trying to clone one their beers.

Is it Avery that has all of their recipes posted on their website?

At least they sent a polite reply. I emailed Stillwater to ask them if they use 3711 and they never responded.

I tried calling Southern Tier multiple times. They put a lot of information on their bottles, so I figured they would be open to a few simple questions. I even left a call-back number and everything, but they never got back to me. A few months later they gave a clone recipe to BYO magazine. I visited Dogfish Head and they were very open about sharing their information. Every step of the tour, they gave out tons of information and kept asking if we had any questions. I even own a book of theirs that gives extract clone recipes. I thought of some questions later on after the tour, and tried to get in touch with them. I could never get an email response from them. There have been numerous brewers who will do shows on the brewing network, and even give tips on how to clone their beers...but not all of them give an exact recipe. Even still, they went out of their way (probably on a very busy schedule) to do an hour long interview.

I guess the point that I'm trying to emphasize is that you should not expect anything. I think as homebrewers we often build up these images of breweries as if they are superheros or something, when in reality they are just breweries. We might imagine these fantastical interactions where they swoop down and give us magical recipes, but in reality many of them are either too busy or simply don't feel the need to share. I have noticed that they are more willing to share when there is some sort of business or publicity involved.

However, don't give up! Maybe if you visit Shiner, they will give you some more information! You'd be surprised what people will share over a few beers.

At least you got a response. I emailed Bluegrass Brewery about their Nut Brown Ale, twice, and haven't heard back yet. I don't expect to get the exact recipe, but was hoping maybe they could just offer something close to it. Heck, I would be happy if they replied back. Even if it was a "F-off" reply, I'd be happy I got one.

It's not going to stop me from buying their beers and I figure as I learn more and grow as a home brewer, the closer I get to making that perfect beer (clone or not), the more I'll appreciate "my craft".

I do like Shiner, so I may have to try that Ruby Redbird next time I'm out.

I once emailed Saint Arnold Brewing about help cloning their Endeavor imperial IPA and got a response from the founder/owner the next day. He didn't give me the exact grain bill but gave a lot of good info in trying to make a clone of it.

I think all these scenarios are reasonable. You all have asked for recipes with varied responses. These guys are makin beer for money. Some will want to share, but others won't especially via a random email or phone call. I don't think you should every brewery to respond much less to respond with a detailed recipe. Not buying a brewery's beer because they won't email you or give you a recipe seems silly. You might have better luck on a brewery tour.

I have different experiences with this.

1. Brewery says, "We don't play well with others. You are on your own." This is a reasonable response. Maybe they are guarding a secret that will change the world of beer forever if it gets out, probably not but it is easier to let them think that than to bother wasting odd thoughts of you not buying anymore of the beer you like so much you want a clone.

2. Brewery says, "This is our grain + hop bill for a X size batch and the strain of yeast we use is closest to Z." Cool we have something to tinker with. and we think the brewery is great. Start experimenting!


3. Brewery says, "How big of a batch are you making?" and then fills up your grain & hop bill for you and tells you the water profile to use, the the fermentation temps and any other info you may need to perfectly clone the beer as best you can. Yes, there is a place in WI that does this.

I was talking to the brewmaster at a local micro. I told him that i thought their IIPA was great and i would like to make a clone. I asked if he could point me in the right direction. He laughed and walked off.
I still frequent the micro and still drink the IIPA.

Every brewery i have contacted to clone has been more than happy to share any info i needed.. founders even helped me scale it down (dirty bastard was my 3rd batch) .. they used to even give us yeast in a growler to make sure we got it right... There all gunna he different.. i did notice that if there publicly owned u got a better shot at getting "helpful" info back than privetly owned .. either way jus keep truckin and dont let it effect weather u drink there brews or not, cuz wouldnt be fair to you in same situation..

It is nice to get a response from a brewery about a recipe question, but I wouldn't ever expect one. Just last week I contacted Rogness Brewing with a hops question for one of their beers. I submitted it through the contact page on their website and got a response within a few hours from Forest Rogness. His email response even had one of those "sent from my phone" signature lines. It's nice to see people taking the time to help others out, but I wouldn't have thought any less of him or his companies if I didn't get a response.

The Rogness beers I've tried have all been great and I have been loving their Rattler Pale Ale recently. I want to get a similar earthy finish in my pale ale. He gave me the hop varieties they use and I was at AHS a couple days later getting a grain bill, some yeast, and some of those hops he mentioned.

The problem was that your question never made it to a brewer. It's like finding a job - you are better off getting your resume to the person doing the hiring rather than HR. I'd bet the head brewer could divulge some of the recipe information if he wanted to, but you're never going to get a complete recipe, which is fine. They have to protect themselves.

Don't give up though, try and find out how to get in touch with some of the brewers. I'd bet you'd get an answer more in line with what you'd hope for.

Brewmech said:

The problem was that your question never made it to a brewer.

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This is almost certainly right--if it had, they would have at least thrown you a bone, given a rough idea about grain bill, hop types, etc. Instead, it went to some secretary or IT guy, and they just sent the form response. This is reason enough to go tour the brewery--every brewery I've toured, the staff is happy to chat about their beer. Will they give you the exact recipe/process? Not always. But it's not like their ingredient list is going to be some big secret either. They know as well as we do that it's in the process where the difference happens.

jerrodm said:

They know as well as we do that it's in the process where the difference happens.

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This right here.

jeepinjeepin said:

Is it Avery that has all of their recipes posted on their website?

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Not quite all, but some.

http://averybrewing.com/brewery/recipes-for-homebrewers/

He'brew posts all their recipes online as well as putting the grain and hop bills on their six packs for their more common brews.
Just listened to an older Sunday Session with the founder, and he seemed extremely open to sharing and "advancing the craft beer movement."

I think this is very naive. A brewery can give you any recipe they want; it doesn't have to match. It won't match anyway since it's for a tiny 5 gallon batch.

The only reason breweries humor a demanding home brewer with a recipe is for marketing reasons. You are only a (very good) customer to them. They don't care if you can make their beer.

So when a brewery says 'no', get over yourself. They're just being too honest. It's not like it will make a difference in the world if you can't get help from a brewery to clone their beer. There are tons of homebrewers that can guess accurately the recipe for a craft beer just from tasting it.

At least they replied.

iambeer said:

I think this is very naive.
[...]
The only reason breweries humor a demanding home brewer with a recipe is for marketing reasons. You are only a (very good) customer to them. They don't care if you can make their beer.

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Very naive, maybe, but I think your perspective is very cynical. I doubt either is entirely correct.

passedpawn said:

I wrote Vinnie Cilurzo at Russian River asking for his excellent Consecration recipe. I got a long email with all the ingredients and process.

My local brewery, Cigar City, helped me make a clone of one of their Humidor Series IPAs. They even gave me the Spanish cedar spirals to do it (thanks to Wayne Wambles the head brewer).

I'm really surprised at how giving the breweries are. The industry is mostly exceptionally open.

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Willing to share, wouldn't mind trying a shot at cloning Consecration. A plus to All the guys at Cigar City very giving at advancing brewing.