PM vs extract/specialty grains

As I understand it, the only real difference between these two is the type of grains that are used. PM uses grains that have their own enzymes and what not and will produce fermentables in the wort, so that one has to use less LME/DME. With specialty grains, your are basically extracting flavors/color/non-fermentables, but the bulk of the fermentable comes from the LME/DME. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong!

So if I want to do PM and only have a 5 gallon and 2 gallon pot available to me, how should I do it? My first recipe that I did involved steeping the grains in 3 gallons of water in a grain bag at around 155 F for 45 minutes, and then dunking the grain bag 7-10 times as a "fake" sparge, and then adding 6 lbs of LME to achieve that SG. Is this typically what most PM's do, or do they actually sparge, etc using larger equipment? I really want to get to the point where I can use the most amount of grains that my system can handle until I get the whole turkey fryer/ 10 gallon MLT set-up (hopefully by Xmas!). Thanks so much for any and all input!

Jason

You're confusing terminology here. Partial-mashing is a technique, whereas specialty grain is an ingredient. If you're using specialty grains, you can either mash OR steep them. Extract brewers usually only steep them which means no fermentables (no conversion). Partial mashers mash them and get everything possible out of them, including fermentables. The steeping method is not the same as partial mashing. My advice is to use as much real grain as you can and boil as much wort as you can...

What I would do is mash in the smaller pot. Limit your grains to 4 pounds & get a big grain bag, 'cause loose is good. The two keys for PM are temperature (150-156F) and having as much 2-row as specialty grains. While the mash is working heat about two gallons of water in the other kettle to 170F. When the mash is done, move the bag to the larger kettle and tea-bag it. Then pour the wort from the mash tun into the large kettle.

I batch sparge my PMs, but the above method will give good results.

PM'ing is also a great step if you ever want to get in AG. I have been Partial Mashing for about 3 years now, and I am soooo close to All Grains. I just need to kick myself in the butt to put my HLT and my Keggle together. I also have to build a bench for my Gravity fed system.

As far as PM's go, I currently have 7 lbs of Grains (5 lbs American 3 row, 1 lb. 20 L, and 1 lb. 40 L) in the oven right now. It'll be in their for 90 minutes in the lower 150 degree range. After that, I'll batch sparge, get my boil going, add 5 lbs. Light LME, and go from there with my hop additions. You learn a lot from Partial Mashing as far as All Grain Techniques go.

Soulive21 said:

You're confusing terminology here. Partial-mashing is a technique, whereas specialty grain is an ingredient. If you're using specialty grains, you can either mash OR steep them. Extract brewers usually only steep them which means no fermentables (no conversion). Partial mashers mash them and get everything possible out of them, including fermentables. The steeping method is not the same as partial mashing. My advice is to use as much real grain as you can and boil as much wort as you can...

Click to expand...

soulive21,

Greetings,
I was interested in your comment about speciality grains,
steeping vs partial mashing.
I have been brewing 15 years.
Today I walked into the Homebrew Headquarters to pick up my 55 Lbs of D.M.E. mentioning that last year my goal was 1,000 bottles of beer,
{on the wall so to speak}
all at the same place and at the same time.
I brewed 300 Lbs of D.M.E.
8 Lbs per 5 gallons of water
ie. 'Mien Acht Pfund Hammerbier'

I achived 517, 12 oz bottles all at the same place and at the same time, but brewed 2,000.
So I am getting volume production down,
{and that was all 12 oz bottles!}

This year I was asking about adding grain to my extract for flavor.
'Old Kelly' told about steeping, 150 degrees for 20-30 minutes and sparging
before adding the extract. I have done this steeping before but stopped when I learned there was no alcohol being produced.
My goal was to make alcohol which didn't taste bad.

I told Kelly that alcohol which did... taste bad,
was better than no alcohol at all,
but since quantity was the goal last year
and quality is the goal this year,
I bought speciality grains this time to 'steep' in my Hammerbier.

what about this P.M. thing?
I have not heard about it but was wondering:
1. If P.M. added as good of a taste as steeping.
2. What is involved in 'P.M. ing'
and as a precurser to my learning full grain
is it worth the little bit of alcohol it produces?
{My Hammerbier is 6 3/4% alcohol already.}

Also today, after 15 years of brewing, {my own buzz}
I learned L.M.E. and D.M.E. are both made from 'base grains'
and basically impart little flavor themselves
hence the addition of specialty grains.

Damn!
I am learning stuff!
I walk around the store every time I go in there
wondering what all those bins of grain are for
assuming they are for whole grainers.
My Hammerbier is good but there isn't much taste.

1. Alcohol which doesn't taste bad, was the goal,
I achieved that.

2. Being able to produce 60 gallons a month,
6 months out of the year, {during cool weather}
was achieved last year.

3. Now, this year,
there is no place left to go but to quality.
better tasting brew being the goal
I am all excited and can't wait to crank up a batch of ale
with specility grains 'steeped' in.

But is 'PM' worth it?
and whats involved?


Thank you

J. Winters VonKnife

Most of this taken from John Palmer's "How To Brew"

Steeping differs from mashing in that there is no enzyme activity taking place to convert grain or adjunct starches to sugars. Steeping specialty grains is entirely a leaching and dissolution process of sugars into the wort. If grain with enzyme diastatic potential is steeped, that is mashing. See the following chapters for more detail on that process.

Specialty malts like caramel and roasted malts do not need to be mashed. These malts have undergone a special kilning process in which the starches are converted to sugars by heat right inside the hull. As a result, these malts contain more complex sugars, some of which do not ferment, leaving a pleasant caramel-like sweetness. Caramel malts are available in different lovibond ratings (color), each having a different degree of fermentability and characteristic sweetness. Roasted malts have had their sugars charred by roasting at high temperatures, giving them a deep red/brown or black color.

Mashing grains need to have the enzymes to break down the starch into sugar, steeping grains already have the sugar they just need the water to extract it from the grains.

To me, there are two main reasons to PM instead of steeping grains:

1. Fresher more "malt" taste
2. Save money!

If you use say, 3 pounds of two-row and "steep" the same way you do specialty grains but at 150 degrees for 45 minutes, you can decrease the amount of DME you use!

Jack, in your 8 pound hammer for example- 8 pounds of DME in 5 gallons gives you an og of 1.070 and you know how much you pay for DME. (It would cost me around $24 just for the DME because I don't buy in bulk).

Same recipe, but use 6 pounds of DME and 3 pounds 2-row. It's about the same sg, so same amount of alcohol. But 2-row costs less than DME and makes it taste better! Even better, toss in some crystal malt (maybe a pound) in with the two-row and have an awesome malty beer that is a wee bit higher in ABV, tastes better, and costs less to make!

PM can be super easy- my first one was in a grain bag in my brewpot, just like with steeping grains. My second was in my bottling bucket. Or you can go bigger and use a cooler and mash even more grain. There are lots of options here!

Best thing I did was move to PM. I did the extract and the extract + steeping for a couple of brews. The last four batches have been PM and as everyone as pretty much already stated - lower cost, more control, better final beer product and learning the techniques for me to jump to AG. I started PM'ing with 4 lbs of grains and now am up to 5.25 lbs. Go PM if you get the chance and you don't need too much more equipment, unless you want to...

Gentlemen,

Each one of the former posts were so profoundly educational
interesting and exactly what I needed to know.
I am stunned.
It has taken days for me to even begin
to understand all this information.

Speciality grains are for taste.
Base grains {so aptly named} are for alcohol production.
L.M.E. & D.M.E are made from base grains.
{I thought my homebrew was kinda bland tasting.}

If base grains were steeped at 150-175 degrees,
for 30' -45' minutes... and this makes alcohol...
Is this whole graining?
Or at what point does steeping base grains end
and partial mashing of base grains begin?
For that matter where does 'partial mashing of base grains' end
and 'whole graining' begin?
Is it just the proportion of ingrediants?
If I take 14 Lbs of base grain,
and boil it at 150 175 for 30' - 45' minutes,
steep in some speciality grains,
does this equal whole graining?


'The Knife

I have a book "North American Clone Brews", and all the recipes are PM, (although they do shou Extract and AG alternatives)

I took the PM "plunge" after building the 5 gal (should have been 10) gallon MLT.

The results showed a real improvement over extract, especially in smoothness..

The move to AG was easy (Thanks to EdWort! )

My advice, go build a MLT and go PM

Ok, I'm very interested in this topic as well. I want to bring it down into practical usage for my understanding. First off, what's MLT stand for? Secondly, I understand the difference in process between steeping and mashing. However, in practical terms, what actions are performed differently? You say "mash" (basically boil the grains at the specified temperature, right?) for 45 minutes, whereas I "steep" specialty grains for 1/2 hour. I know the chemical processes are different, but in terms of what is done on my part, is it safe to say that it is more or less the same?

I've been doing extract w/steeping grain batches and the beers are coming out pretty good. I want to start doing PM's. How do i convert extract recipes to PM's?

Steiner said:

Ok, I'm very interested in this topic as well. I want to bring it down into practical usage for my understanding. First off, what's MLT stand for? Secondly, I understand the difference in process between steeping and mashing. However, in practical terms, what actions are performed differently? You say "mash" (basically boil the grains at the specified temperature, right?) for 45 minutes, whereas I "steep" specialty grains for 1/2 hour. I know the chemical processes are different, but in terms of what is done on my part, is it safe to say that it is more or less the same?

Click to expand...

Yes, as far as process, they are the same as a rule. "Steeping" and "mashing" are really similar processes. You are basically doing the same thing. You are holding some grains in water for a specified period of time at a specific temperature. You never, ever "boil" the grains. Usually you keep them at 150 degrees-ish for 45 minutes.

MLT= mash lauter tun. Read Howtobrew.com through and it explains it much better than I ever could!

To convert is really easy- especially if you have some brewing software. In a PM, you are basically doing a small AG. You are replacing some of the fermentables with extract. So, the more grain you're able to mash, the less extract you'll need. If you post a recipe that you want to convert to PM, any of us can help you with conversion.

ok this is really confusing me how is DME and LME made? is this something that is purchased and not made? why would someone go PM when they could do AG similar to what is posted on the following link? http://www.classiccitybrew.com/homebrew.html
Honestly I dont understand but the AG way on the website above seems like it would be a cheaper better way to go.

What about a scaled-down brew-in-a-bag?
An oversized nylon grainbag stretched over your 3-5gal extract brewpot, held at 153* for a half hour on your stovetop or in the oven. 'Sparge' just by pouring 170* water over the bag as you pull it out.

'Knife - I'd highly recommend giving this website, or at least the first two sections of it (on extract brewing and on specialty grain) a good read. It's awesome. That will tell you enough to make delicious beer.

Kai,

I have reading the Palmer book for the last hour.
A free book!

Steeping is mashing.
That alone is interesting.

Speciality grains...
base grains...

One 'steeps speciality' grains into ones extract brew.
Whole grain is mashed.
Partial mashing is inbetween.

I will read this information today.
And get out the Pappazian book and read the 'grain' related parts.

Today I have another batch, 'batch #3', to brew,
of 8Lbs D.M.E. and a sack of grain to steep.
Chris at he 'HomebrewHeadquarters' fixed 6 sacks of grain,
one a 'Shiner', one a 'Brown', ect. to steep in my Hammerbier.
and some are single malts while others are mixtures.

Thanks

Knife

If base grains were steeped at 150-175 degrees,
for 30' -45' minutes... and this makes alcohol...

Click to expand...

You don't get alcohol from grains. What you get is sugars or fermentables which the yeast is able to turn into alcohol. So the more fermentables you get the higher ABV you will get and you get more fermentables from mashing base malts than specialty malts.

Maybe you already knew this and the semantics where off but if not thought I would help clarify that point

YooperBrew said:

You never, ever "boil" the grains.

Click to expand...

That's a false statement: See Decoction Mashing.

If by "the" grains it means all of the grains then the statement is correct.
Only a fraction of the grains are boiled in decotion brewing.

5isnotenough said:

That's a false statement: See Decoction Mashing.

Click to expand...

Of course, you are right. I wasn't referring to decoction mashing at all- in fact we're talking about PM in that instance. The OP asked about boiling the grains at a certain temperature as a "mash" and I was explaining that mashing at 150ish is the goal by keeping it at a steady temperature, not boiling the grains.

I rarely do decoctions, but that is one time I do boil a portion of my grain (and the liquid, too). But I don't think we should bring decoction mashing into a thread that is all about extract and specialty grains vs. PM.

HBDrinker008 said:

You don't get alcohol from grains. What you get is sugars or fermentables which the yeast is able to turn into alcohol. So the more fermentables you get the higher ABV you will get and you get more fermentables from mashing base malts than specialty malts.

Maybe you already knew this and the semantics where off but if not thought I would help clarify that point

Click to expand...

No problem,
I am, after 14 years brewing extract, steeping speciality grains,
learning to put some flavor in my brew.
I am having to relearn all this brewology. 'Simmering changes starch to fermintable sugar, not alcohol.'
Got it.

Thanks

I appreciate it,
and I stand corrected.


Knife