Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

14thstreet said:

How in the world is it lacking in aroma?? All those hops!

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Ha ha ! Well it's not lacking "technically". It's actually great Just not as aromatic as the original. Just being picky since it is a clone.


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An update on my Conan vs WLP090 (San Diego Super Yeast) HT clone: FG was 1.011 and 1.014 respectively so Conan attenuates better. OG on my clone was 1.073, and I didn't add sugar.

Brewed the recipe from page 1 yesterday, pitching GY054. Everything went reasonably well except I had people over andended up drinking all day afterwards, forgetting to pay attention to the ferm temp. I had the carboy in a warmer section of my house and even though my thermostat is set at 64, when I checked this morning the carboy temp was at 73, 10 degrees higher than I planned to ferment.

Anyone have any experience with a hotter fermentation on the GY054 strain? It’s still within the recommended range, but way hotter than I typically ferment an IPA.

I moved the carboy to a colder section of the house so hopefully the temp will come back down to the mid 60s, although at this point I'm not sure that would matter.

From some peoples experiences it seems Conan gets clovey or Belgian tasting at the higher temps. Maybe you'll get lucky


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Hmmm, well I did pitch ab 300 billion cells for 5 gal so hopefully this will limit some stress and ester production. We'll see.

Think I'm finally going to give this a try this weekend. Does anyone have a water profile built from distilled for this recipe?

Water chemistry is the next step in my progression, just haven't had the need to yet since most of my beers turn out great. However, my Minneapolis water is getting a little stinky, which seems to happen every spring (probably due to the melt off). Thought this would be a good opportunity to build a water profile from scratch. I really don't know what I'm doing though.

Anyone used distilled on this recipe? Thanks for your help.

I tried my Conan vs WLP090 HT clones tonight. The Conan version is a little better, and is probably my best beer to date (this is the 3rd time I've done this clone.) They both have the HT taste, but the Conan version pops a bit more and the WLP090 version seems a little muted in comparison. I might have to save one beer from the Conan version and let it sit in the fridge for about 5 months because the best beer I ever had was the last HT I had that sat in the fridge for 5 months. Both versions are really on par with HT hop taste, and possibly even better IMO since I subbed Citra, El Dorado, and Galaxy for Amarillo (I feel Amarillo is over-rated). I also used a combination of 2-row and Golden Promise instead of Pearl, and I think I will stick with that for all my future beers. I might do this clone again and drop the white wheat since people are now saying HT doesn't use wheat, but I really hit it right this time and am sold on using Conan as long as I can keep the temp under 70* for the first 2-3 weeks.

I brewed up the clone over at bear-flavored dot com a few weeks back and dry hopped it last weekend. Bottled last night and the smell was amazing!! Brewing it again next weekend.

LoloMT7 said:

I brewed up the clone over at bear-flavored dot com a few weeks back and dry hopped it last weekend. Bottled last night and the smell was amazing!! Brewing it again next weekend.

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You better include one of those!

After all the discussion on Conan, has anyone tried the BYO Heady clone using the WLP013 (London Yeast) they have in their ingredients??? It seems like the exact opposite (low attenuation) of what's needed... Unfortunately I ordered it without thinking, and now I'm wondering if I should save all those expensive hops and reorder the WLP 090 .....won't be getting any Heady in the near future to extract the real yeast I need.

VTCCbrewer said:

After all the discussion on Conan, has anyone tried the BYO Heady clone using the WLP013 (London Yeast) they have in their ingredients??? It seems like the exact opposite (low attenuation) of what's needed... Unfortunately I ordered it without thinking, and now I'm wondering if I should save all those expensive hops and reorder the WLP 090 .....won't be getting any Heady in the near future to extract the real yeast I need.

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You can order Conan from GigaYeast.

You'll need to purchase it from one of their retailers.

Better yet, buy it directly from The Yeast Bay Their vials are super fresh and are all propped and packaged by White Labs so you know the QC is world class.

Brewed a generic IPA with Conan last week using the same grain bill only in smaller portions. I stepped up to a 2L starter with the dregs from 4 cans of Heady which resulted in a very healthy amount of viable yeast cells. I saved 2 mason jars worth of the starter and pitched the rest in my wort, 3.5 gallons at 1.060 hopped with a bunch of leftover hops I had from single hop experiments I recently did.

After 10 minutes of vigorous oxygenating (shaking the h3ll out of the carboy), I brought it to my basement which stays at a temperature controlled 61F. Fermentation started off ferociously within 12 hours as the Conan went to work. The aromas from the airlock were nothing short of amazing.

Fast forward 1 week, the beer is at 1.012.. Awesome right? Nope... I took a pull from the sample used for my hydrometer and it was all clove :smack:, and a lot of the hop flavor and aroma had been stripped down and muted. Well, the beer was still very good as a Belgian pale ale, but definitely not what I was looking for. Luckily my wife loves Belgian styles, so its not a total loss.

Anyways, this is a warning to all out there. Ferment Conan very low at first and step it up as required. My ambient 61F basement was still too warm to stave off the hard working Conan from heating up and creating Belgian notes. Next time I will be using either a swamp cooler or wet towel to ensure I can draw off any heat caused by fermentation. Luckily I have 2 more cans coming to me so I can try again, since I did not salvage my last yeast cake as a precaution.

Vigorous fermentations can be 10 or more degrees higher than the ambient temps in the room. I always measure my temp on the side of the fermenter because of this.

brewski09 said:

Vigorous fermentations can be 10 or more degrees higher than the ambient temps in the room. I always measure my temp on the side of the fermenter because of this.

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Right, so his fermentation was the opposite of what it's supposed to be which probably accounts for the off flavors. Instead of starting off cool and slowly raising the temp, he started off warm and slowly lowered temps as fermentation died down.

Proper temperature control is must for Conan yeast. I use a Cool Brewing Fermentation Cooler and a stick on thermometer on the cooler. I replace frozen bottles once or twice a day and sometimes swing temperatures as low as 59*, but it's a pretty inexpensive set-up and works quite well to keep my beer temperatures under 70* at all times as long as ambient temperatures don't go above 80*.

There's another system that uses a cooling jacket attached to a water pump with a temperature probe and controller and also includes a similar cooler jacket for a couple hundred dollars, but I could probably have the same system by just using a similar cooling jacket and temperature controller if I wanted to have tighter temperature control and not have to worry about switching out bottles as my mash tun is a 50 quart cooler and could obviously supply cold water for quite a while before I needed to refill it, but it's really not a big deal to switch bottles out and I don't feel my beer is negatively effected by occasionally going down to 59*, much better than letting it get over 70* and possibly having Belgian notes. After 2-3 weeks of fermentation I can let a beer with Conan go above 70* and it ends up fine.

I actually have a temperature controlled fridge for fermentation. However I have never really needed it during the cooler months, especially with an OG of 1.060. Conan fermented more vigorously than any other yeast I've ever worked with and is more sensitive to higher temperatures than most. Lesson learned, I will not underestimate this yeast again. Just wanted to bid the group fair warning. Just glad I got it figured out before I put almost $60 of hops and grain on the line.

hopefully the picture comes up. Can you guess my clone (minus Conan)? I can't remember Heady but this seems real close, maybe a little more bitterness in heady and missing that great Conan flavor.


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metalmann77, you mentioned you stepped up Conan from cans. It's quite possible you cultured some other strain alongside as well. Without isolating the culture properly you kind of get a mixed bag of microorganisms. Just a thought. Any chance you tasted your starters along the way?

Just saw an article on the Bear Flavored blog and gives some direct quotes from J.Kimmich about where HT yeast was sourced from and current avail. strains through Wyeast/White Labs that would be most similar. You can read here:

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/03/shrunken-heady-topper-recipe-plus-new.html

Basically says:
"Conan is also known as VPB-1188, and the strain was originally sourced from an English beer / brewery that Greg Noonan was particularly fond of. Kimmich makes it sound like the yeast had been with Noonan since opening the Vermont Pub & Brewery in 1988. (My guess: "VPB-1188" simply indicates the date and place when Conan first began its American conquest.)"

and

"Kimmich recommends a few yeast strains that he finds close to the character of Conan. First off is "Wyeast British Ale III," which I don't believe is the exact name of a strain, so far as my Googling can dig up. I believe he perhaps meant to say London Ale III, a strain offered by Wyeast that rumors say Hill Farmstead may use — and Shaun Hill apparently once also had access to Conan, as I've also heard, so that would kind of make sense? Kimmich also recommends German Ale for a similar character"

Sorry for not reading through the entire thread quite yet, but has anyone done a side by side with Conan at normal temps (66-68*) and US05 in the high 50*s, like mentioned in BYO? I'm doing both at the moment, but reading some not so nice things about 05 in the 50's. Any advice would be appreciated

I would only do the us05 in the 50's for a few days. That yeast performs well under stress putting of peach notes but too much stress is also a bad thing. 3-5 days in the 50's and then maybe 64-66 until it's a day or two from done. Then no higher than 70-71 for yeast cleanup. That's my experience with us-05 from other uses.


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Thanks brewski. This sounds like a safer bet. I already upped the temp controller to 60 after 2 days, just waiting for stronger fermentation to kick in and naturally raise the temp. Maybe I'll up it 2 degrees every other day, then 70 to finish.

ja09 said:

Sorry for not reading through the entire thread quite yet, but has anyone done a side by side with Conan at normal temps (66-68*) and US05 in the high 50*s, like mentioned in BYO? I'm doing both at the moment, but reading some not so nice things about 05 in the 50's. Any advice would be appreciated

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I did a few batches with 05 at 57. NOT the kind of peach you get from conan. Friends liked it (didn't love it) and I hated it.

VTCCbrewer said:

After all the discussion on Conan, has anyone tried the BYO Heady clone using the WLP013 (London Yeast) they have in their ingredients??? It seems like the exact opposite (low attenuation) of what's needed... Unfortunately I ordered it without thinking, and now I'm wondering if I should save all those expensive hops and reorder the WLP 090 .....won't be getting any Heady in the near future to extract the real yeast I need.

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worthington is a pretty strong attenuator in my experience...just be sure to mash on the cooler side, like 150F. I've generally got 76-80% attenuation, not quite like chico, but not bad. Sounds like you know Conan is all over the place regarding attenuation depending where you're getting the strain...can vs. ranchers.

What is the difference between the 0 minute hop addition and the whirlpool hops? Are you adding the zero minute after the whirlpool?

NervousDad said:

What is the difference between the 0 minute hop addition and the whirlpool hops? Are you adding the zero minute after the whirlpool?

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I'm sure some brewers have different interpretations, but 0 is typically done immediately after flameout, and whirlpool or steeping hops are added when the wort cools to 180*, then whirlpooled for half an hour or so before chilling to pitching temps.

^^ what Ja09 said

Thanks, Still new to this whirlpool deal

I brewed up another batch of this yesterday, but obviously screwed up my whirlpool additions and added them at 200f.

I mixed in some chinook to the whirlpool addition and I also ran it trough my hopback with Chinook and Simcoe. I curious to see how this turns out.

I also added the sugar today after 24hrs of fermentation. The last batch had somewhat of a sweet finish and I really wanted to dry this one out some more.

VTCCbrewer said:

After all the discussion on Conan, has anyone tried the BYO Heady clone using the WLP013 (London Yeast) they have in their ingredients??? It seems like the exact opposite (low attenuation) of what's needed... Unfortunately I ordered it without thinking, and now I'm wondering if I should save all those expensive hops and reorder the WLP 090 .....won't be getting any Heady in the near future to extract the real yeast I need.

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I brewed it with WLP013. OG was 1.077 and finished at 1.019, so 74% Apparent Attenuation. Test samples during fermentation were nice, very fruity, but reminded me more of Lagunitas Sucks than Heady. However, once in the keg and carbonated, it was not as fruity, and has more of a dank taste with citrus undertones. A little harshness too it too. Definitely not Heady, but a decent DIPA!

jdauria said:

I brewed it with WLP013. OG was 1.077 and finished at 1.019, so 74% Apparent Attenuation. Test samples during fermentation were nice, very fruity, but reminded me more of Lagunitas Sucks than Heady. However, once in the keg and carbonated, it was not as fruity, and has more of a dank taste with citrus undertones. A little harshness too it too. Definitely not Heady, but a decent DIPA!

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Thanks for the input.....but I bailed and ordered the Vermont Yeast from Yeast Bay.....brewing Sunday, will update my progress.

^looking forward to hearing your (or anyone else's) experience with Yeastbay's Vermont Ale yeast.

I'm using YeastBay VT Ale as well, but not brewing until 04/19. Using the recipe on pg 1

jammin said:

^looking forward to hearing your (or anyone else's) experience with Yeastbay's Vermont Ale yeast.

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I just made a 3.1 L starter on a stir plate with three vials of Vermont Ale. I fermented it in a temperature controlled chamber at 68 degrees with the temperature probe insulated and taped to the side of the flask. The smell inside the chamber half way through fermentation was delicious. It actually smelled hoppy like a real beer was fermenting (but not nearly as hoppy) and I did not add any hops to the starter. Very strange. I can not wait to brew this beer.

14thstreet said:

metalmann77, you mentioned you stepped up Conan from cans. It's quite possible you cultured some other strain alongside as well. Without isolating the culture properly you kind of get a mixed bag of microorganisms. Just a thought. Any chance you tasted your starters along the way?

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Good question. The starters smelled and tasted pretty clean as I stepped up the yeast. I was going to brew today with the cultures I saved in mason jars, and it seems to me they too developed some minor Belgian notes. Thinking I might have inadvertently stressed the yeast on my final step and it didn't really put off anything noticeable right away. I'll still try a small batch brew today to see if by maintaining a very low ferm temp I can clean up the off flavors, but it might be too late. Might have to buy something from Yeast Bay or try to step up dregs from another can or 2. Thoughts?

You might be best to start anew. Keep your starters low in sugar and step up gradually while keeping a schedule. I recently took the dregs of one bottle to 10ml, then to 100ml and finally to 1 liter over the course of a week or longer. If a step sits around idle you may either expose it to oxygen and select for growth of other organisms. Some of the unwanted bugs may be hidden by yeast in early steps but once brought up to larger cultures over time they might start expressing themselves more. Also, remember the yeast has been conditioned in the brewery and must also survive packaging and handling. It will still have to adapt to what you put it through so be gentle and keep it clean the best you can. If you don't have the proper equipment you will always run the luck of the draw. Good luck!

From my experience the Belgian notes that Conan yeast can produce above 70* are intrinsic to the yeast and the yeast will not produce more or less Belgian esters based on the fermentation temperature of the starter. I have a strain of Conan directly from a can of Heady. I always make sure to save at least 20 billion cells and have made over a dozen starters with the yeast. It still attenuates great and acts the same way every time. On a few occasions my starters have gone over 70* and the starter beer had Belgian notes, but it did not effect the yeast. If I keep the temperature under 70* for the first 2-3 weeks of fermentation there will be no Belgian notes, if the temperature goes above 70* during that time, there will be Belgian notes. I've used it over a dozen times and it acts the same way every time.

I agree. The Belgian notes are most likely just from the Conan strain, not contamination. There is a whole thread on Conan and how it performs/reacts. It's a pain in the butt. It might be my go to pale ale/IPA yeast if it weren't so hard to manage.


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Thanks for the feedback. I finished brewing my small batch IPA yesterday, the carboy is in the fridge now getting down 55F. Thermocouple is taped to side of carboy and bubble-wrapped over that so should get a better read on the actual beer temp vs. ambient.

I'm starting low and will push the temps up as required. Once I reach pitching temps I'll add my latest Conan starter stepped up from the mason jar portions of the original starter. Hoping for the best, will let you know how it turns out.