I'm still getting infections

I tried everything. Bottled water, boil all of the water, bleach, scrubbing, doing it outside, dry yeast, oxiclean, starsan etc. and still getting bad beer. At least it's getting better. It is now just sour and tastes like citer but have lost the bandaid taste and the color is right.
Question is that I am about to start a batch of Kolsh and I want to know if anyone has any last minute suggestions. Here is my process.
I have tasted the starter and it is good. The glass carboy is soaking in bleach right now and was scrubbed beyond what is insanely reasonable. I plan on doing this one outside with bottled water. This time I am not going to use a starsan rinse on the carboy but a rinse with bottled water. I put the emersion chiller in 15 minutes before the end. Chill tales about 10 minutes then I will aerate for 30 min. with an aquarium pump and a filter, pitch, and pour into carboy with a plastic funnel which lives in starsan.

Dang man, I thought you had it licked! Probably wouldn't make a difference, but as anyone thought about baking the carboy in the oven? What about the filter for your aeration? If the infection some how got in it? These are about the only things left to look at. Have you aerated with the same filter for every batch? Man I do mine tomorrow and was hoping to gain some confidence in the fact that you beat the infection.......

I ruled out the filter because I did have those two good batches in between. I also tried it without aeraton.
Good luck John and keep in close touch.

I am baking the bottle right now. I will take it to 150 and let it sit for 10 minutes and then to 200.

Baking the carboy in the oven won't kill the nasties. Moist heat kills, not dry.

If I were you, I'd pour a full gallon of concentrated bleach into the carboy, and let it sit for a few days, swirling it around really well a few times per day so there's contact.

What do you use to rinse, by the way? Have you washed down your whole brewshop with some light bleach-water? There's not a leak in your wort chiller is there?

I have checked and the chiller does not leak. I have skrubbed the whole kitchen from top to bottom with starsan. If I leave a littel liquid in the bottle it might do it. I'm desperate to try anything. I think an exorcism is next. JNJ has the exact same problem. He even stopped a few months and it came back.

What type of stopper are you suing in your carboy? The rubber ones are porous and can harbor bacteria that is almost impossible to get rid of once it is established. The plastic universal ones are much better as far as sanitation goes.

I checked the chiller and it's fine. Scrubbed the whole kitchen from top to bottom with starsan. I was rinsing with starsan but I think I'm just going to use bottled water this time. Maybe a little water in the bottle will help although I find it hard to believe that at 200 degrees even dry wouldn't kill them are you sure about that? What about hotter?

Hey,

Looks like dirty equipment is not the problem since you have pretty much taken care of it with the steps you've taken. I'm assuming you do full boils, and that it comes out Sour out of the primary, not after bottling... ALso I wouldn't stop using starsan that stuff is amazing and only needs 30 seconds of contact time.

I guess this is what I would look at:

1: Your transfer method to your primary (Make sure those hoses are sanitized, or better yet replace them all together)

2: Starter... did you boil it for 10 minutes then let it cool down. How did you cool it down? Did you put the starter in the fridge to cool down like a lot of people do (which may cause some kinda contamination). Are you adding the yeast in your starter when it's to warm and it's killing off the yeast?

3: What liquid are you using to fill up your airlock? I use diluted starsan myself because on some situations I have had some of that airlock water get sucked into my primary usually after first transferring from kettle to primary. Lots of people use vodka as well.

4: I know lots of people just can't resist sticking their noses in the primary during fermentation... Not saying you do that but I would leave it sealed completely until at least a couple weeks. I was pretty much guilty of this for at least the first year of brewing but now I use glass carboy's for my primary's which lets me take a look when I feel curious.

Other than that man I'm not sure what the problem would be... I haven't read the other threads you have posted so I'm not sure of the entire process your using but here are some friendly tips... Hopefully you will find it helpful....

Cheers,
LS_Grimmy

Where is your brewshop located? Is it possible to close up the area and run a HEPA filter in there for a day prior to brewing?

Next step, if you want. Order some prepoured, sterile agar plates with LB media online.

You can get 50 plates from Sigma here for $23: https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search/ProductDetail/SIGMA/L5542

Next, you need to get some sterile cotton swabs (at a medical supply store). Swab everything, and plate it on a different plate, with a label. Swab your carboy, funnel, inside of hoses, countertop, spoons, etc. Maybe even plate up some sanitizing solution. AND, next time you brew leave a plate sitting out in the open, in case there are airborne contaminants. Seal the plates up with some plastic film, then place them upside down near a heater (your target incubation temp is 38˚C, or around 100F). Let them go for a few days. You'll see growth on the plates that were contaminated. We will get to the bottom of this. It's only science.

I don't do full boils because I use DME. But the last batch I did boil the water the day before. Yes they are all bad in the primary. My secondayy is lonely these days.

Starter bas bpiled 10 minutes and cooled in an ice bath with th lid on. The starter is good.

I used rumin the airlock and never take the cork off until racking.

mrkristofo said:

Where is your brewshop located? Is it possible to close up the area and run a HEPA filter in there for a day prior to brewing?

Click to expand...

My house is large and open so it's pretty impossible.

I have a detached garage which I am wanting to move into but I can't get SWMBO to get her $hit out. She has more crap than the law allows. It has an apartment room that I plan on using.

I'm going in!
Pray for me.

Mother brew-mistress. we pray to you today for the safety and well-being of a baby brew. Give her the strength to overcome the nasties, and the spirit to endure through consumption. In the name of the mash, the boilpot, the primary and secondary.... Amen

Just spotted this thread -- hope your brew goes well. I had similar problems a couple of years ago, and I had to replace ALL my plastic to get rid of it. Hoses and racking canes are cheap, so those are easy. Auto-siphons or other gadgets are less likely to harbour infection, but I replaced mine anyways. After 3 or 4 bad batches in a row, I finally licked it after replacing my plastic.

Hoping you don't have to do that!

Maybe you should wear a face mask next time? Maybe the infection is coming from your own breath? Not that you have bad breath or anything. hehe

That's a good point. How many of us take a shower and put on clean clothes before brewing? On that note, I'd say don't let any kitchen towels, wash cloths, sponges, aprons, or pot holders get anywhere near your brew, they are loaded with nasties.

mrkristofo said:

Baking the carboy in the oven won't kill the nasties. Moist heat kills, not dry.

Click to expand...

Where did you hear this? How do you kill salmonella? Cook the chicken in your oven. It's been my experience that heat kills, no matter if dry or moist. I only have 16 years in the food safety and sanitation field, so I may be wrong..

I was under the impression that dry heat will still kill but it just takes a lot longer than wet. Is this true?

You use an air pump and filter, but what about the end of the hose?. A likely source for the infections would be any tubing in contact wth the cool wort, and the sour infections are a sign of a lacto infection. Are you sanitizing the vinyl hoses when they are attached to other devices?, the place where the hose meets the hard plastic device is a great place for bacteria to buildup in the trapped material there. Best method is to pull the hoses off and clean and sanitize then assemble before use. Might be a good time to start using iodophor as a sanitizer and skip the rinse on fermentors and hoses that are in contact with cool wort, bleach will work but getting the right concentration and contact time is more difficult because of lack of a color indication for solution strength.

Man, I thought you had this thing licked. Doing everything outside didn't help? Maybe you need to try all new equipment, not just the plastic.

eddie said:

I was under the impression that dry heat will still kill but it just takes a lot longer than wet. Is this true?

Click to expand...

It can take longer and higher heat, but it all depends on the bug you are trying to kill. Spore formers are very hard to kill, and you can't "kill" bio-toxins, but neither (Toxins and spore formers) are what you would incounter in brewing (think bio weapons).

Are you getting any condensation on the chiller dripping back in the wort while chilling? Where are you when you pitch your yeast? I do this inside and turn off the AC so there is no air movement when I'm handling yeast. How old is the starsan solution?

JnJ said:

Where did you hear this? How do you kill salmonella? Cook the chicken in your oven. It's been my experience that heat kills, no matter if dry or moist. I only have 16 years in the food safety and sanitation field, so I may be wrong..

Click to expand...

I think the chicken is still moist. I don't want to come for lunch if it isn't.

I have replaced the hose and boiled the barb fitting I use on the end to weight the hose down. Yesterday I pitched the yeast outside for the second time and didn't aerate the wort. I did aerate the starter for the first time and that made a huge difference. I have never had a Kolsh start that fast and ferment so vigorously. Not even close. After this I may just skip aeration on the wort and just aerate the starter as it seems to have better results. I always make a fresh solution of starsan every time. I never get enough condensation to drip back but I have thought of that. I baked the carboy at 220 degrees for over 30 minutes. I’m hoping this helped. If this doesn’t work I am replacing the funnel although it spends it’s whole life in starsan and I also soaked it in bleach this time.

Believe it or not I am happy that is down to just a sour taste now and it smells more like beer. I also noticed a slight bitter taste that I never had before. Any clues on this?

JNJ don’t give up. If one of us solves this I think the other can fix it.

orfy said:

I think the chicken is still moist. I don't want to come for lunch if it isn't.

Click to expand...

Ya, but you are using dry "heat".

rohanski said:

I have replaced the hose and boiled the barb fitting I use on the end to weight the hose down. Yesterday I pitched the yeast outside for the second time and didn't aerate the wort. I did aerate the starter for the first time and that made a huge difference. I have never had a Kolsh start that fast and ferment so vigorously. Not even close. After this I may just skip aeration on the wort and just aerate the starter as it seems to have better results. I always make a fresh solution of starsan every time. I never get enough condensation to drip back but I have thought of that. I baked the carboy at 220 degrees for over 30 minutes. I’m hoping this helped. If this doesn’t work I am replacing the funnel although it spends it’s whole life in starsan and I also soaked it in bleach this time.

Believe it or not I am happy that is down to just a sour taste now and it smells more like beer. I also noticed a slight bitter taste that I never had before. Any clues on this?

JNJ don’t give up. If one of us solves this I think the other can fix it.

Click to expand...

Those sour and bitter tastes sometimes mellow out over time. I had a similar problem with the sour taste and now when I open beers from that batch they taste really good. When the beer was green it was really sour. Some beers need to be aged longer than others.

I kept some of them for 4 months and they never got better........

JnJ said:

It can take longer and higher heat, but it all depends on the bug you are trying to kill. Spore formers are very hard to kill, and you can't "kill" bio-toxins, but neither (Toxins and spore formers) are what you would incounter in brewing (think bio weapons).

Click to expand...

Would not bio-toxins wash off during the mechanical cleansing that should proceed disinfection? Like botox from botulism, for instance, shouldn't that stuff pretty much wash or rinse off?

rohanski said:

didn't aerate the wort. I did aerate the starter for the first time and that made a huge difference. I have never had a Kolsh start that fast and ferment so vigorously. Not even close. After this I may just skip aeration on the wort and just aerate the starter as it seems to have better results.

Click to expand...

If you had a mechanically clean primary, like washed with dish soap but not sanitized at all, and you got your wort in there, and then a big pitch with a short lag you ought to be fine. If it isn't fine this time around I am going to be corn-fused cause the short lag and aggressive ferment means the yeast won :rockin:.

Are you still using rum in the airlock?

EDIT:Actually, I did think of one thing. Are you farming yeast, or starting a few days ahead with a commercial package each time? If you are farming, your herd might be contaminated with something you can't taste until sometime after day three...

EDIT2: And what did change after the last batch and before this one that took off so well?

Poindexter said:

Would not bio-toxins wash off during the mechanical cleansing that should proceed disinfection? Like botox from botulism, for instance, shouldn't that stuff pretty much wash or rinse off?

Click to expand...

Well we were just talking about the effects of heat, but yes it "should" wash off. ( a little off topic but) But, if I handed you a bottle and said "this bottle was contaminated with botulism (most deadly substance know to man) but I washed and sanitized it" would you use it? My answer is Hell No!!! I'd get another bottle.

poindexter,

I didn't use rum in the last one on saturday. My batches typically start within 12 hours and I always use new yeast.

The only other variable that I haven't changed is the funnel although it sits in starsan 24 hours a day and this last time I soaked it in bleach. It looks very clean. I am wondering if after all of this could it be the funnel? The only thing left is something in the air. I live out in the sticks and there has been a lot of stuff floating around because of all of the rain we had this year.

You shouldn't leave things sitting in sanitizer for extended periods. It will get sort of slimy and impart a chemical taste to your beer. You are better off, washing it and storing it then putting it into the sanitzer prior to use. I'll let things set for 20 minutes or so.

A chemical taste over what I have now would be welcome. LOL

Maybe the chemical taste is what you have now?

It has morphed from real crappy sour bandaid to sour and thin tasting with a slight bitterness. JNJ has the same problem but his was not bitter.

rohanski said:

It has morphed from real crappy sour bandaid to sour and thin tasting with a slight bitterness. JNJ has the same problem but his was not bitter.

Click to expand...

Maybe I missed something earlier, but didn't you just start this beer 3 days ago?

No this was the one before that. I believe I'm around 11 or 12 bad ones right now. I kinda lost count. The one I started 3 days ago has a real pungent smell. I have not smelled that that I can recall. As I said it has been so long since I have done a kolsh that came out good I don't remember what it smelled like.

JnJ said:

Well we were just talking about the effects of heat, but yes it "should" wash off. ( a little off topic but) But, if I handed you a bottle and said "this bottle was contaminated with botulism (most deadly substance know to man) but I washed and sanitized it" would you use it? My answer is Hell No!!! I'd get another bottle.

Click to expand...

I went ahead and looked it up, botox is in the manual here at work. 8 distinct strains of Clostridium botulinum, only two generally associated with infections in humans. Spore former, yes. C. botulinum spores can survive 100°C (rendundant I know) for 5+ hours, but C. botulinum spores will be rendered non-viable after five minutes at 120°C. 120°C ~ 248°F.

C. botulinum toxin or 'botox' is just a polypeptide, a mid sized protein. The toxin is denatured by heat at 80°C (~176°F) more or less instantly, the polypetide toxin will also be instantly rendered harmless on contact with a solution of 10% bleach in water.

Would I use a bottle brought known to be contaminated with Botox? Yes I would. Would I try to disinfect a bottle that was not mechanically clean glass first, no I wouldn't. I dunno if Star-San works on Anthrax or whatever else, but I know bleach does.

[/highjack]

rohan... I bet your kolsch is going to be fine, I have smelled some really funky stuff out the airlock just with the 10 or so batches I have done. But I do agree about not storing your funnel in the disinfectant. If it is mechanically clean to the naked eye in strong light there isn't much growing on it so it should disinfect quite easily when the time comes.

Poindexter said:

I went ahead and looked it up, botox is in the manual here at work. 8 distinct strains of Clostridium botulinum, only two generally associated with infections in humans. Spore former, yes. C. botulinum spores can survive 100°C (rendundant I know) for 5+ hours, but C. botulinum spores will be rendered non-viable after five minutes at 120°C. 120°C ~ 248°F.

C. botulinum toxin or 'botox' is just a polypeptide, a mid sized protein. The toxin is denatured by heat at 80°C (~176°F) more or less instantly, the polypetide toxin will also be instantly rendered harmless on contact with a solution of 10% bleach in water.

Would I use a bottle brought known to be contaminated with Botox? Yes I would. Would I try to disinfect a bottle that was not mechanically clean glass first, no I wouldn't. I dunno if Star-San works on Anthrax or whatever else, but I know bleach does.

[/highjack]

Click to expand...

Ok, you did your homework and the numbers are pretty good. But, you incorrectly use the term Botox, Botox is derived from A. Botulinum, not C. Botulinum.
Also, when considering the thermal resistance of the spores you have to also consider the pH and salt content of the environment the spores are in, which can affect the temperature at which the spores can survive. 10% household bleach can render the toxin harmless, but it is not instant, you need a 15 – 20 minute contact time to ensure you have inactivated the toxins/spores.
Would I use a bottle contaminated with Botox (A. Bot) yes, would I use a bottle contaminated with C.Bot, hell no. It is the most lethal substance known to man with an LD-50 of 1ng/kg. I would get a new bottle. My life is worth more than the risk. Now lets give rohanski his thread back and we can discuss this stuff some place else. Sorry Rohanski!!