Mashing at high temps question

Curious if mashing grains at high temps (grist temp > 170F) extract only nonfermentable sugars or both fermentable and nonfermentable.

Thanks for replies.

TrubHead said:

Curious if mashing grains at high temps (grist temp > 170F) extract only nonfermentable sugars or both fermentable and nonfermentable.

Thanks for replies.

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You'll still get some fermentables, as well as tannins

Brulosopher said:

You'll still get some fermentables, as well as tannins

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Thanks. Any idea on the percentages of fermentables & nonfermentables?

I'm not an expert, but my guess is you'd have unmodified starches.
You would be doing a mash-out before you even started mashing. The amalayse would denature, and leave you with just wet grain.
Probably not a good idea.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Nohup said:

I'm not an expert, but my guess is you'd have unmodified starches.
You would be doing a mash-out before you even started mashing. The amalayse would denature, and leave you with just wet grain.
Probably not a good idea.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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I was thinking this could be the case. So maybe temps between 70C - 75C are "habitable" for only the alpha enzymes (nonfermentables). Still curious about the ferm/nonferm percentages.

It could be an interesting experiment. I know I one time mashed a big wheat at 160 - 165 for an hour (broken thermometer), and ended up with a very sweet, very cloudy (but full-bodied).

Wouldn't do it again, but it was beer.

Good luck with whatever you try.

Alpha doesn't just produce non-fermentables. It provides a mix. Beta breaks apart starch from the end. eg takes off a simple sugar and leave the rest of the chain intact. Alpha will break apart the starch at any point - 1 big sugar and 1 simple, 2 big sugars etc.

At those temperatures you will denature all the enzymes and get no conversion.

billl said:

Alpha doesn't just produce non-fermentables. It provides a mix. Beta breaks apart starch from the end. eg takes off a simple sugar and leave the rest of the chain intact. Alpha will break apart the starch at any point - 1 big sugar and 1 simple, 2 big sugars etc.

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Thanks. What would the mix be if only alpha?

Nohup said:

It could be an interesting experiment. I know I one time mashed a big wheat at 160 - 165 for an hour (broken thermometer), and ended up with a very sweet, very cloudy (but full-bodied).

Wouldn't do it again, but it was beer.

Good luck with whatever you try.

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Thanks. After reading a bit of the mashing section in Palmer's book, think I need to run this test. Thinking a few oz of crystal and maybe a little 2 row or only crystal.

TrubHead said:

Thanks. After reading a bit of the mashing section in Palmer's book, think I need to run this test. Thinking a few oz of crystal and maybe a little 2 row or only crystal.

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As I understand, you don't really have to mash crystal malts... the malting process that they undergo converts the starches into sugars before you even get them. If you're intent on doing the experiment, you might learn more with just a base malt.

Check out this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/testing-fermentability-crystal-malt-208361/

TrubHead said:

Thanks. After reading a bit of the mashing section in Palmer's book, think I need to run this test. Thinking a few oz of crystal and maybe a little 2 row or only crystal.

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Crystal is already converted, mashing it will just dissolve the sugar that's there already. You need to do this with base grain only if you want to test for mash conversion.

There are plenty of charts out there that show the temp and pH ranges for the various enzymes at work in the mash.

Do you have a goal in mind for mashing so high?

The enzymes aren't denatured instantly at 170F, but they are denatured a lot faster at 170 than at 152 (or whatever). The enzymes also work a lot faster at higher temps, just not fast enough to counteract their destruction. You'll still get some conversion, just much less than at standard mash temps, and a lot more of your sugars will be unfermentable, as alpha-amylase survives longer and works better at higher temps. According to Kai, alpha works best at 158, beta at 140. You actually get about the same amount of extract at 149 as 158, the fermentability is just much different.

berebrando said:

Check out this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/testing-fermentability-crystal-malt-208361/

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Thanks for the link. A fellow brewer sent me the same link awhile back to answer another question I previously had. The question I have now is mashing high which I don't think the thread covers.

helibrewer said:

Crystal is already converted, mashing it will just dissolve the sugar that's there already. You need to do this with base grain only if you want to test for mash conversion.

There are plenty of charts out there that show the temp and pH ranges for the various enzymes at work in the mash.

Do you have a goal in mind for mashing so high?

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Yes the goal is to compare ferm/nonferm when mashing high temps.

TrubHead said:

Yes the goal is to compare ferm/nonferm when mashing high temps.

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http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion

Go to Figure 6 and/or Table 3. But If you want to do a couple of 1 gallon tests, I'm sure a lot of us would be interested in hearing the results. It would also make a difference what you were mashing. A mash of all 6-Row would yield a lot of fermentables, even at 170F, because of how much amylase would be in solution. A mash of Vienna and adjuncts wouldn't have nearly as many enzymes; they'd be destroyed before they could do much work.

kingwood-kid said:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion

Go to Figure 6 and/or Table 3. But If you want to do a couple of 1 gallon tests, I'm sure a lot of us would be interested in hearing the results. It would also make a difference what you were mashing. A mash of all 6-Row would yield a lot of fermentables, even at 170F, because of how much amylase would be in solution. A mash of Vienna and adjuncts wouldn't have nearly as many enzymes; they'd be destroyed before they could do much work.

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Planning on a 50/50 mix of 2-row and crystal to try in a 1L starter flask. However think the 5 gallon mash tun will not contain the temps long enough for 1/2 lb of grain. Might try anyway to see if the initial 177F strike temp is enough to denature the Beta.

Haven't tried BIAB but something like this would be more effective for temps. What do you think?

Go with whatever would hold temps constant the best. Since this is strictly for experimental purposes, you could mash at 2-3 qt/lb and go no-sparge. I don't get the point of the crystal, since it has no enzymes and very little convertible sugar.

kingwood-kid said:

Go with whatever would hold temps constant the best. Since this is strictly for experimental purposes, you could mash at 2-3 qt/lb and go no-sparge. I don't get the point of the crystal, since it has no enzymes and very little convertible sugar.

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Used the mash tun with 50/50 mix using strike temp 177F. As expected the cooler didn't hold temps which dropped to 156F rather quickly. Pitched S05 and it's quite active this morning. Oh well, will have OG/FG readings in a few days or so to compare.