How do you make (AG) wort for a starter?

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Dan

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I'd like to make wort to use in my yeast starter. I'll use 2-row barley and want to make around 1/2 gallon. Any help on water and grain volumes would be very much appreciated. Looking for gravity to be around 1.030 - 1.040
 
1.07 gal water to 10.7oz 2 row, BIAB
will give you around .5 gal at 1.035
At 72% efficiency
with .5 boil off at 60 min boil
 
If you're brewing on a budget $1.50 to buy a lb of grain to make a starter is a much nicer looking option than dropping $5 of a lb of DME.
 
If you're brewing on a budget $1.50 to buy a lb of grain to make a starter is a much nicer looking option than dropping $5 of a lb of DME.

When you're only using like 3oz of DME are you really saving much doing an AG starter? That's like 5 starters per pound of DME. And there's no hassle of having to mash it.


Rev.
 
It seems like a lot of trouble to save an insubstantial amount of money. Maybe my perspective is out of wack. It seems pretty cheap for the few oz dme needed. If you want to make wort for it sure, you can save a few dollars. It won't make a hill of beans difference in your end product, just cost more time on a starter. I guess if you are already setup for canning then maybe it makes sense. For me, I'd need to by a pressure cooker and other canning supplies... dammit, now I am talking myself into going this route.. damn me

dme still seems easier... but hey... I guess if easy was the object we would just buy beer
 
When you're only using like 3oz of DME are you really saving much doing an AG starter?


I pay .56 cents a pound for 2-row. The smallest amount of DME I can buy is a pound from my lhbs, for about 5 bucks, iirc.... Since most conversion is actually usually done after the first 20 minutes or so, you can easily make up several mason jars of starters in maybe an hour, 2 at most, and store them in the fringe after canning. Perfect thing to do on a winter or rainy afternoon on the stove when you got the brewing jones but don't really want to go outside. Heck with a two gallon cooler you can get a lot of them done.

And since it's technically brewing...it's fun to do, so "time" is not a factor for me.

And I don't have to slap my head and say, ****head you forgot the dme again....;)
 
What a great idea! So you could make a gallon (or two) of wort, rack to mason jars and store in the fridge? Then obviously boil them and proceed with the starter?
 
i just did a quick BIAB for my starter wort, boiled for 15 minutes and cooled. 1 lb of two row was $0.70 and made about 3 quarts of good starter wort....good enough for me!
$6 for 1 lb at the LHBS, which equals roughly 1.7 lbs of 2-row, which yeilds a $4-5 savings...worth it for me. Just need to get a canner and I will make up numerous starter worts to grab in a hurry.
 
or you could always brew a beer and save some of the runnings for yeast starters. boil it, cool it and refrigerate it in a sanitized container or freeze
 
No DME on hand?

Nope, no DME on hand. I used some old LME on the last starter I made and dumped the whole 2000 ml starter into a 10 gallon batch, should have decanted. The final product had a twang to it, like burnt LME.

This time just want to make a starter out of fresh grain.
 
or you could always brew a beer and save some of the runnings for yeast starters. boil it, cool it and refrigerate it in a sanitized container or freeze

I was thinking about something similar, just don't want to do it on brew day, would rather have the starter wort available a day or two before.
 
So are you gonna can it after and keep it on hand?

I don't know Revvy but making a gallon or two might not be a bad idea to have on hand later. Not real familiar with the canning process, I suppose I can Google that.
 
easy way would be dme at first. but if you think about it it is more fun making a batch wort A.G. style and making many pre made starters that will save time on the next batch you need a starter for. 1 small mini AG wort starter batch will get ya set for 5 batches. you could so same with dme but there is where the money comes in play
 
It seems like a lot of trouble to save an insubstantial amount of money. Maybe my perspective is out of wack. It seems pretty cheap for the few oz dme needed. If you want to make wort for it sure, you can save a few dollars. It won't make a hill of beans difference in your end product, just cost more time on a starter. I guess if you are already setup for canning then maybe it makes sense. For me, I'd need to by a pressure cooker and other canning supplies... dammit, now I am talking myself into going this route.. damn me

dme still seems easier... but hey... I guess if easy was the object we would just buy beer

I'm not trying to save money, just don't want to buy DME since I have grain at hand. I plugged the numbers into BeerSmith and for a quart starter it said to use 6.4 ounces of grain to get a 1.041 wort but the water required part was over a gallon and included a 60 minute boil. I'm thinking about just putting 4 quarts of water in a crockpot with a half pound of grain. Thinking of adding it all together and setting the crockpot on low for a few hours. If the starter OG is to high I'll add some water and if to low, do another crockpot mash with more grain or just let evaporation occur and when the gravity is correct stop the process.

I'd like to come come up with a starter wort around 1.035 to have on hand.
 
I don't know Revvy but making a gallon or two might not be a bad idea to have on hand later. Not real familiar with the canning process, I suppose I can Google that.

You need a pressure cooker. They are a little expensive for a good one, but come in handy for canning food, ribs, pulled pork, all kinds of stuff. I make up 5 gallons of starter wort at a time and can it up mostly in pints and quarts. Just mash and off to the canner. You end up with some break in the jars if you don't boil first, but you can leave most of that behind with some careful pouring. It's a lot easier than a regular brew day, and then you have enough starter wort for quite a few batches.
 
Thanks BBL! Would you mind giving me the basic directions to canning? I have 6 or 7 pint size mason jars and a pressure cooker.
 
Thanks BBL! Would you mind giving me the basic directions to canning? I have 6 or 7 pint size mason jars and a pressure cooker.

Well, as far as basic directions go I would consult the manual for the canner you have. Ie, how much water you need to put in the canner and that sort of thing. If you are not familiar with the process at all and don't have the manual, let me know what kind of cooker it is and I'll help you out. As far as directions for canning the wort itself, can it at 15 psi for 15 minutes. Leave a little head space in the jars so they don't boil over and glue your rings to the jar threads. Check to make sure all the lids sealed after they cool by tapping on them and then store. Nothing to it really.
 
I can put 1.5 gallons of water in it with about a 1/4 inch space left at the top. There is no PSI gauge on the lid, just three settings. One no air out, two some air out and three more air out.. ha ha.

So how does this canning process work?
 
To be honest with you, I've never seen one like that. All the ones I've ever saw either had a jiggler or a pressure gauge (I have both kinds). What is the brand and model? Sounds like maybe that one is meant for just cooking and not canning.
 
I started doing something on brew day that always gives me starter wort when I need it. When I am done brewing I dump the remaining wort at the bottom of my keggle into a bucket. Yes, it is full of protein/hot break material and looks as bad as you can imagine. I layer a couple paper towels in a large funnel and place this in another catch pot. I then pour it in and let it sit and filter. I usually have about two quarts leftover and this all filters crystal clear -- It's amazing. I then pour this clarified wort into labeled/dated freezer bags and freeze them until I need one. At that point, I thaw them, boil for fifteen minutes in my Erlenmeyer flask, cool and pitch.

I am not really spending any extra time and I would dump out the kettle dregs otherwise. I wish I had a picture of the before and after filtering, because it is dramatic.
 
So it's 10:22 pm, I have a gallon of water and 4 cups of crushed two row (my scale died so had to do basic volume measurements) sitting in a crockpot which for the time being is set on high. I didn't realize it was so late so thinking about setting the crockpot to low before I go to bed and just let it mash away till morning.

I'll probably pour the mash into a collander (placed above another pot), sparge with some hot water and take a gravity reading. If to (edit) low I'll boil for awhile to evaporate the excess water and if to (edit) high dilute with (boiled/cooled) water.

After that need to preserve it somehow, canning sounds like a good idea, just need to learn how to.

I planned on brewing Sunday 1/29 but my scale and thermometer are broken and need to be replaced. Next weekend I won't have the time due to family commitments. Next brew day will not be until February 11th
 
To be honest with you, I've never seen one like that. All the ones I've ever saw either had a jiggler or a pressure gauge (I have both kinds). What is the brand and model? Sounds like maybe that one is meant for just cooking and not canning.

It might be BBL, I really don't know. Can you give me an idea of the process? I goggled it and there are plenty of videos about canning, however they sort of assume you understand canning in the first place.. Know what I mean?
 
I started doing something on brew day that always gives me starter wort when I need it. When I am done brewing I dump the remaining wort at the bottom of my keggle into a bucket. Yes, it is full of protein/hot break material and looks as bad as you can imagine. I layer a couple paper towels in a large funnel and place this in another catch pot. I then pour it in and let it sit and filter. I usually have about two quarts leftover and this all filters crystal clear -- It's amazing. I then pour this clarified wort into labeled/dated freezer bags and freeze them until I need one. At that point, I thaw them, boil for fifteen minutes in my Erlenmeyer flask, cool and pitch.

I am not really spending any extra time and I would dump out the kettle dregs otherwise. I wish I had a picture of the before and after filtering, because it is dramatic.


You know, I have recently thought about using some of the last runnings as starter wort, just have not done that yet so have none on hand. You say you filter your last runnings and freeze? That's a great idea! I suppose I could do that with the wort I'm now making for a starter, brew day is in two weeks. You think that would work? Been talking with BBL about canning which I think is a great way to save wort for an indefinite period. You ever can?
 
When you pressure can something, you boil water (and your jars) in a somewhat sealed vessel and the pressure builds up inside. There is always some sort of pressure relief that regulates the pressure. Different foods need to be held at a certain pressure for a given amount of time to properly preserve. 15 psi for 15 minutes will render the wort sterile. For yours, I'm not sure what the settings correspond to in terms of pressure. If you knew what model it was I might be able to look it up.
 
When you pressure can something, you boil water (and your jars) in a somewhat sealed vessel and the pressure builds up inside. There is always some sort of pressure relief that regulates the pressure. Different foods need to be held at a certain pressure for a given amount of time to properly preserve. 15 psi for 15 minutes will render the wort sterile. For yours, I'm not sure what the settings correspond to in terms of pressure. If you knew what model it was I might be able to look it up.

Cool, thanks BBL. The stamp on the bottom of the pot is Vagor, made in Spain and says "Vitro Induction" I appreciate the help but feel a bit guilty asking any one to figure out what type of pot this is.. But hey! if you want to i won't turn down help.

:mug: to you BBL!
 
When you can, and you don't need a pressure cooker to do it, any boiling waterbath can do. You are in essence pasteurizing/sterilizing everything, the container and contents at once. Then as the jar cools, you are also creating a vacuum in the jars which further protects the contents from anything getting in. A pressure cooker really just speeds up the processm but it's like a stirplate where making starters are concernd, it's nice to have if you have one, but you can do it without it.

You can do it in any pot that can hold your jars in.
 
Dan said:
So it's 10:22 pm, I have a gallon of water and 4 cups of crushed two row (my scale died so had to do basic volume measurements) sitting in a crockpot which for the time being is set on high. I didn't realize it was so late so thinking about setting the crockpot to low before I go to bed and just let it mash away till morning.

How did this work? I would be shocked if it didn't blow right by mash temp (even on low) too fast to get effective conversion.

Adam
 
Revvy said:
When you can, and you don't need a pressure cooker to do it, any boiling waterbath can do. You are in essence pasteurizing/sterilizing everything, the container and contents at once. Then as the jar cools, you are also creating a vacuum in the jars which further protects the contents from anything getting in. A pressure cooker really just speeds up the processm but it's like a stirplate where making starters are concernd, it's nice to have if you have one, but you can do it without it.

You can do it in any pot that can hold your jars in.

With all due respect, this is dangerous advice. Boiling does not sterilize it sanitizes. Proper pressure cooking effectively sterilizes. Improper canning techniques can lead to spoilage of the canned product, possibly by disease causing organisms including botulism.

If you are going to can wort, please research and understand proper canning techniques. For most of us, freezing is safer and easier.

Adam
 
With all due respect, this is dangerous advice. Boiling does not sterilize it sanitizes.

With all due respect, you do know that people have been canning by the boiling method for hundreds of years, right????????? It's hardly dangerous if it's considered one of the best methods of preserving food, is it?

And if you google Boiling and Steralization you will find plenty of citations that reference boiling as a means of steralization. Like this- http://www.mhcs.health.nsw.gov.au/publication_pdfs/669/HTS-669-ENG.pdf

According to the National Center for Home Food Preservation...To steralize jars prior to canning you boil them. Sterilization of Empty Jars

How To Sterilize Canning Jars

You may want to quibbile on some microbiological level, but it canning food, which canning wort is the same thing, the commonly accepted term for boiling something to render it usable for canning IS sterilization.
 
From Simply Canning.....

In Water Bath Canning sterilizing jars is not needed IF processing time is more than 10 minutes Most recipes call for at least 10 minutes processing time or more.

You don't need to sterilize for pressure canning. Everything will be well sterilized by the high heat involved in pressure processing.

Read more: http://www.simplycanning.com/sterilizing-jars.html#ixzz1kqrqOud6

You must however start with clean jars so be sure and always wash your jars before you do any type of canning. I am assuming you would know that all equipment needs to be clean before any canning.

I don't personally use any recipes that call for less than 10 minutes, I am at high altitude and everything has time added.

If you do have a recipe that calls for less than 10 minutes you might consider adding time to your processing. This way you can simply skip this step. It is up to you.

Go ahead and check your recipe, does it call for less than 10 minutes processing time? Don't forget to figure you altitude. If so you should be sterilizing first.
Here's how:

Place empty jars right side up on the rack in a boiling-water canner.
Fill the canner and jars with hot (not boiling) water to one inch above the tops of the jars.
Bring to a boil and boil 10 minutes.
Carefully remove hot, sterilized jars one at a time and drain.
They will be hot!
Leave the hot water left in your canner for processing filled jars.

Continue with your canning recipe.

Read more: http://www.simplycanning.com/sterilizing-jars.html#ixzz1kqrycrcv
 
Revvy,

Yes, people have been water bath canning for hundreds of years... with certain foods. Foods that are highly acidic or that have large amounts of added sugar are included in this group. Most foods DO require pressure canning. If this wasn't true, why would anyone own a pressure canner? The section of the canning website that you quoted about water bath canning is specifically for the high acid foods that can be safely canned this way. There is another section on that website (which I quote below) that deals with pressure canning for low acid foods.

If you google boiling and sterilization, you will find many references that say "sterilization" when they mean "sanitation". Frighteningly, this includes the health department link that you listed. Not only does boiling not sterilize to begin with, once the items are removed, any part of the item exposed to air would no longer be sterile. When you properly pressure can, the lids seal to the jars before the lid is removed from the pressure canner, preventing non-sterile air from contacting the food.

From the pressure canning page of the site you referenced:

These directions are for pressure canning low acid foods. This includes any meat and most vegetables.

Pickles, jam jelly, or fruits are all high acid foods. If you are preserving these you need to be on my Water Bath Canning Page.​

Wort is not a high acid food. a pH in the low 4's is required to safely can without pressure.

From the Sterliziation wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)) Not that even here, they incorrectly use the term "sterilization". In any case, the point is that they go on to correctly state that pressure canning effectively sterilizes.

Although imperfect, cooking and canning are the most common applications of heat sterilization. Boiling water kills the vegetative stage of all common microbes. Roasting meat until it is well done typically completely sterilizes the surface. Since the surface is also the part of food most likely to be contaminated by microbes, roasting usually prevents food poisoning. Note that the common methods of cooking food do not sterilize food - they simply reduce the number of disease-causing micro-organisms to a level that is not dangerous for people with normal digestive and immune systems.

Pressure cooking is analogous to autoclaving and when performed correctly renders food sterile. However, some foods are notoriously difficult to sterilize with home canning equipment, so expert recommendations should be followed for home processing to avoid food poisoning.​

So, I will freely admit that part of my motivation for my initial reply was because the whole Sanitation vs. Sterilization thing is a major pet peeve of mine (I work in surgery, sanitized doesn't cut it!) but also because I truly believe that improperly canning wort (which is made to be a great growth medium) can be potentially dangerous.

Adam
 
Revvy,

Yes, people have been water bath canning for hundreds of years... with certain foods. Foods that are highly acidic or that have large amounts of added sugar are included in this group. Most foods DO require pressure canning. If this wasn't true, why would anyone own a pressure canner? The section of the canning website that you quoted about water bath canning is specifically for the high acid foods that can be safely canned this way. There is another section on that website (which I quote below) that deals with pressure canning for low acid foods.

If you google boiling and sterilization, you will find many references that say "sterilization" when they mean "sanitation". Frighteningly, this includes the health department link that you listed. Not only does boiling not sterilize to begin with, once the items are removed, any part of the item exposed to air would no longer be sterile. When you properly pressure can, the lids seal to the jars before the lid is removed from the pressure canner, preventing non-sterile air from contacting the food.

From the pressure canning page of the site you referenced:

These directions are for pressure canning low acid foods. This includes any meat and most vegetables.

Pickles, jam jelly, or fruits are all high acid foods. If you are preserving these you need to be on my Water Bath Canning Page.​

Wort is not a high acid food. a pH in the low 4's is required to safely can without pressure.

From the Sterliziation wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)) Not that even here, they incorrectly use the term "sterilization". In any case, the point is that they go on to correctly state that pressure canning effectively sterilizes.

Although imperfect, cooking and canning are the most common applications of heat sterilization. Boiling water kills the vegetative stage of all common microbes. Roasting meat until it is well done typically completely sterilizes the surface. Since the surface is also the part of food most likely to be contaminated by microbes, roasting usually prevents food poisoning. Note that the common methods of cooking food do not sterilize food - they simply reduce the number of disease-causing micro-organisms to a level that is not dangerous for people with normal digestive and immune systems.

Pressure cooking is analogous to autoclaving and when performed correctly renders food sterile. However, some foods are notoriously difficult to sterilize with home canning equipment, so expert recommendations should be followed for home processing to avoid food poisoning.​

So, I will freely admit that part of my motivation for my initial reply was because the whole Sanitation vs. Sterilization thing is a major pet peeve of mine (I work in surgery, sanitized doesn't cut it!) but also because I truly believe that improperly canning wort (which is made to be a great growth medium) can be potentially dangerous.

Adam

+1. My wife the physician and my mother the canning enthusiast both endorse the contents of this message. It's not as if every improperly canned food will automatically kill its consumer, but botulism is nasty, nasty stuff.
 
or you could always brew a beer and save some of the runnings for yeast starters. boil it, cool it and refrigerate it in a sanitized container or freeze

This.

Increase your batch size by a half gallon or whatever you need, then you will have a starter wort ready for your next brew day.
 
Not being an expert, it was also my impression that wort needed to be pressure canned prior to long term storage. Freezing would probably work for a few months, and refrigeration for a week or two.

I routinely can wort for starters. I try to make it pretty concentrated (1.070 or so) so I can use smaller mason jars/more per batch.

When I make the starter I put a pint of water in my starter flask, boil to sterilize, cool and add the canned wort. Pitch and go.

I don't particularly do it to save money. I do it because I want to keep complete control of my beer. Well, and because if I wanted to do it the easy way, I'd just go buy some beer.

L
 
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