What's the point of a hop "flavor addition" in an IPA?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

peterj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2012
Messages
1,637
Reaction score
314
Location
Smyrna
Does a traditional "flavor addition" (like at 10-20 minutes) actually give you more flavor than an "aroma addition" (like 5-flameout) or is the "flavor addition" just giving you less aroma because more of the most volatile essential oils are being boiled off but the more stable flavor compounds are sticking around? If you're just getting less aroma but the same amount of flavor (or actually less flavor because the more stable flavor compounds are still being boiled off, just more slowly) then what's the point of doing any flavor/aroma addition before flameout in a beer like an IPA? Does boiling the hops for 10-20 minutes enhance the flavor in some way? It seems like to maximize the flavor and aroma you would add only at flameout. Am I missing something? What do you all think?
 
Yeah, I'm gonna sit and watch too.

My feeling is that ten minutes is going to have the same effect as flameout.
 
" Am I missing something?"

Yeah, a couple hundred years of brewers experimenting with their hop addition timing and seeing what tastes best. The flavor and aroma compounds produced in the kettle aren't particularly well understood from a scientific standpoint, but there is a long history of practical experience with the flavor profiles.

Of course, everyone has different tastes, so feel free to drop those additions and see if you like it better.
 
I think there is a definite difference in an IPA that has 60/15/0 hops vs 60/0.

I like them both, but it seems like the 15-20 minute hops give another dimension of depth and flavor not present with all bittering and aroma hops.

Hops isomerization and utilization isn't understood perfectly even by scientists- so I don't have a good explanation, except for the alpha acids isomerizing more at the 15 minute addition that at flame out.

For many IPAs, I do even more additions and do 60/15/10/5/0/dryhop and I think there is a great depth of hops flavor and aroma in those beers. Of course, I've never done the exact same beer with 60/0/dryhop so I can't say that it would be markedly different if you compared them head-to-head although my gut says they would.
 
The point of "Flavor"?

hmmmm........AHA!!!

I prescribe one Bell's TWO HEARTED ALE!!!!

NOW.

OH hell. You have tasted sierra nevada? Tons of hop "Flavor".

Bittering additions are just that. BITTER, no real flavor.
 
Bittering additions are just that. BITTER, no real flavor.

Debatable...

However, the point still stands - you're going to get different contributions by adding hops at different times.

an interesting experiment would be to make an IPA 3 ways:
60-15-0
60-15
60-0
Should give you a good example of what you get with everything together, and then the contributions of just flavor hopping and just aroma hopping...
 
" Am I missing something?"

Yeah, a couple hundred years of brewers experimenting with their hop addition timing and seeing what tastes best. The flavor and aroma compounds produced in the kettle aren't particularly well understood from a scientific standpoint, but there is a long history of practical experience with the flavor profiles.

Of course, everyone has different tastes, so feel free to drop those additions and see if you like it better.

I get the point of flavor additions in other styles where you want a bit of flavor and maybe some aroma or no aroma. But I'm talking about the relatively recent styles (relative to the hundreds of years of beer history) like American IPA where you're looking to maximize flavor and aroma.

I think there is a definite difference in an IPA that has 60/15/0 hops vs 60/0.

I like them both, but it seems like the 15-20 minute hops give another dimension of depth and flavor not present with all bittering and aroma hops.

Hops isomerization and utilization isn't understood perfectly even by scientists- so I don't have a good explanation, except for the alpha acids isomerizing more at the 15 minute addition that at flame out.

For many IPAs, I do even more additions and do 60/15/10/5/0/dryhop and I think there is a great depth of hops flavor and aroma in those beers. Of course, I've never done the exact same beer with 60/0/dryhop so I can't say that it would be markedly different if you compared them head-to-head although my gut says they would.

Yeah I guess there could be a different depth of flavors, but just thinking about it, it seems like if you combined all of those additions into one flameout addition you would get even more flavor and a lot more aroma from the same amount of hops. I've never brewed a beer with only 60/0/dryhop either though, which is why I was asking.

The point of "Flavor"?

hmmmm........AHA!!!

I prescribe one Bell's TWO HEARTED ALE!!!!

NOW.

OH hell. You have tasted sierra nevada? Tons of hop "Flavor".

Bittering additions are just that. BITTER, no real flavor.

That's not what I'm asking at all. I guess you only read the title? I wouldn't mind taking you up on the Two Hearted though!
 
Yeah I guess there could be a different depth of flavors, but just thinking about it, it seems like if you combined all of those additions into one flameout addition you would get even more flavor and a lot more aroma from the same amount of hops. I've never brewed a beer with only 60/0/dryhop either though, which is why I was asking.

But boiling changes the hops oils- that's the whole point of a 15 minute addition. It means that they are not fully isomerized, but partially, and it changes the way they are in the wort and in the final beer. They are not the same as a 0 minute hop addition- that is the point.
 
But boiling changes the hops oils- that's the whole point of a 15 minute addition. It means that they are not fully isomerized, but partially, and it changes the way they are in the wort and in the final beer. They are not the same as a 0 minute hop addition- that is the point.

I guess that's the question I'm really wondering about. We know that the alpha acids (humulone, cohumulone, and adhumulone) are isomerized and changed by the boil, but do the un-isomerized alpha acids even give any flavor and aroma? I thought it was the other "essential oils" like myrcene, humulene, caryophellene, etc. that contributed to flavor and aroma. That's why higher alpha acid hops don't necessarily have more flavor and aroma. So I'm wondering if boiling these oils for 10-20 minutes changes any of them at all and maybe makes them have a different flavor or if they just immediately start boiling off and you are losing them.

And even if the alpha acids do give flavor and/or aroma, once you start boiling them they start isomerizing so you would be gaining bitter and losing flavor/aroma. Or maybe there is an intermediate step?

Like people said before, I don't think the science behind all of this is well understood. At least, I don't understand it.
 
Not sure if its been touched on but my view on this topic,

Hops added @ 60 will isomerize differently than hops added at 15-10-5m thus changing the flavor profile you perceive in said hop.
There is also more than just hop oil or "lupulin" (myrcene, humulene 2 others i cant remember) there are also alpha acids (alpha acids, beta acids). Which at different points in the boil are isomerized or denatured.

Hop this helps! (see what i did there?)

Cheers!

EDIT: Of course yooper hit on it! Listen to her...shes the bees knees!


Yeah I guess there could be a different depth of flavors, but just thinking about it, it seems like if you combined all of those additions into one flameout addition you would get even more flavor and a lot more aroma from the same amount of hops. I've never brewed a beer with only 60/0/dryhop either though, which is why I was asking.

Dont think of hops as DIRECT flavors, you wont get the same flavors from 0 as you do 10. Sometimes the 10min flavor from a particular hop is more valued then the 0 addition. This applys more to lower AA% hops. You dont get all of the oils/acids and are able to extract broader flavors.

Man...i feel like im rambling now...
 
If you buy into this chart, it answers a lot of questions on hop scheduling...

Cheers!

hop_utilization.jpg
 
That's not what I'm asking at all. I guess you only read the title? I wouldn't mind taking you up on the Two Hearted though!

Guilty. You have my apologies and my admiration for a very good question.

Sorry. The title screamed noob. I took the bait.
 
There's also hop-bursting : e.g. 20/0 or 15/0. Supposedly it leads to drastically different flavor profile - you add a bunch of extra hops to account for the significant drop in effective bittering, with the goal of getting most of the flavor compounds to stick around.

I tried this last weekend with some low IBU partial mash beers to see if it works (was crunched for time). Might want to add that to the design of experiments.
 
"I get the point of flavor additions in other styles where you want a bit of flavor and maybe some aroma or no aroma. But I'm talking about the relatively recent styles (relative to the hundreds of years of beer history) like American IPA where you're looking to maximize flavor and aroma."

Well, obviously most of the american hops are relatively new, but brewers have been trying to strike that balance forever. It's not like american IPA is the first style to ever emphasize hop flavor and/or aroma.
 
" Am I missing something?"

Yeah, a couple hundred years of brewers experimenting with their hop addition timing and seeing what tastes best. The flavor and aroma compounds produced in the kettle aren't particularly well understood from a scientific standpoint, but there is a long history of practical experience with the flavor profiles.

Of course, everyone has different tastes, so feel free to drop those additions and see if you like it better.

Of course they weren't using the hops we are now, many of which are radically different than hops of the past.

I think there is a definite difference in an IPA that has 60/15/0 hops vs 60/0.

I like them both, but it seems like the 15-20 minute hops give another dimension of depth and flavor not present with all bittering and aroma hops.

Hops isomerization and utilization isn't understood perfectly even by scientists- so I don't have a good explanation, except for the alpha acids isomerizing more at the 15 minute addition that at flame out.

For many IPAs, I do even more additions and do 60/15/10/5/0/dryhop and I think there is a great depth of hops flavor and aroma in those beers. Of course, I've never done the exact same beer with 60/0/dryhop so I can't say that it would be markedly different if you compared them head-to-head although my gut says they would.

Did you skip both Stan Heironymous and Mitch Steele at NHC?:D

Maybe I only heard what I wanted to, but what I took home was anything other than first wort or bittering and flameout or whirpool is a waste of hops.
 
"Of course they weren't using the hops we are now, many of which are radically different than hops of the past.
"

Nonsense. Modern hops are direct descendents of older hops. You have different concentrations of various oils etc but those compounds have been around since the dawn of brewing.
 
It's all so subjective too.

We could do a test with identical wort, identical fermentation and packaging, then have six (or more) judges sample and discuss.

I bet we would not end up with a definitive answer.
 
Dont think of hops as DIRECT flavors, you wont get the same flavors from 0 as you do 10. Sometimes the 10min flavor from a particular hop is more valued then the 0 addition. This applys more to lower AA% hops. You dont get all of the oils/acids and are able to extract broader flavors.

Man...i feel like im rambling now...

That's something I was wondering about too. Does boiling them for 10-20 minutes actually extract more oils and flavor compounds from the hops? It seems like, especially with pellet hops, once they are broken up and completely saturated I would think all of the oils would be pretty quickly extracted from them and put into solution. Or you could probably get the same amount of extraction by doing a 10-20 minute hot steep or whirlpool and end up losing less of the very volatile oils who's boiling points are lower than 212*F.

Debatable...

However, the point still stands - you're going to get different contributions by adding hops at different times.

an interesting experiment would be to make an IPA 3 ways:
60-15-0
60-15
60-0
Should give you a good example of what you get with everything together, and then the contributions of just flavor hopping and just aroma hopping...

I think that would be a very interesting experiment and probably the only practical way to figure this out. Unless someone has a lot of time and unrestricted access to sophisticated lab equipment!

There's also hop-bursting : e.g. 20/0 or 15/0. Supposedly it leads to drastically different flavor profile - you add a bunch of extra hops to account for the significant drop in effective bittering, with the goal of getting most of the flavor compounds to stick around.

I tried this last weekend with some low IBU partial mash beers to see if it works (was crunched for time). Might want to add that to the design of experiments.

That's a good point. With hop bursting you're basically using the "flavor addition" as a bittering addition because it will give you a smoother bitterness and you can still retain some of the flavor from those hops. Gaining IBUs is a good reason to use a flavor addition in an IPA.

"I get the point of flavor additions in other styles where you want a bit of flavor and maybe some aroma or no aroma. But I'm talking about the relatively recent styles (relative to the hundreds of years of beer history) like American IPA where you're looking to maximize flavor and aroma."

Well, obviously most of the american hops are relatively new, but brewers have been trying to strike that balance forever. It's not like american IPA is the first style to ever emphasize hop flavor and/or aroma.

That's true, but I can't really think of another style that really tries to emphasize hops quite as much as American IPAs and IIPAs. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like no other style has really tried to maximize hop flavor and aroma to the degree that American IPAs have recently.

It's all so subjective too.

We could do a test with identical wort, identical fermentation and packaging, then have six (or more) judges sample and discuss.

I bet we would not end up with a definitive answer.

That's very true! It's probably not even that noticeable of a difference between a beer with 60/15/0 additions and one with 60/0 additions with the same hops in the same amounts. I just like getting into the geeky details of brewing and science (I'm a Biologist so I guess that makes sense).
 
If you buy into this chart, it answers a lot of questions on hop scheduling...

Cheers!

Yeah, I've seen this graph floating around, but I have no idea where it came from, who created it, or what research and data they used to construct it. Which is why I can't buy into it. You can't just believe what a graph says because it's a graph and it looks nice. I could make a graph that looks even better that says you get the most aroma from a 90 minute addition or you get really smooth bittering by adding dog poop to your beer, but just because it's on a graph wouldn't mean it was true.
 
The best description I've read is in Ray Daniels book. There's a whole chapter on the bittering from hops and a whole different chapter on the flavoring from hops. If you haven't read it, buy it. If you've read it, reread it. It's an amazingly thorough book. I'll only briefly describe some of the info he relays here:

Bittering comes from the resins in the hop, while flavor and aroma come from oils (hydrocarbons) in the hop.

Resins make up about 15% of a hop while oils only make up up to 2%.

Hop oils are volatile, and vaporize off even at low temperatures.

He classifies hop addition types based on temperature:
(1) boiling,
(2) steeping (sub-boil temps but still hot, like flame-out additions, whirlpool, or hopbacks, etc.), and
(3) dry hopping (during fermentation or post fermentation)

He describes nicely how flavor and aroma effects are not a precise science and, while there is a lot of research that's been done and being done, it's varied and can often be subjective. But he boils it down to that the flavor and aroma comes from different compounds in the oils. Depending on the hop and the specific compound, some can be driven off or modified more easily than others. Dry hopping lends itself to fresh hop compounds, especially keeping the most aromatic and volatile ones available to the drinker. Dry hopping and real late additions will not provide as much, if any, flavor because heat is necessary to modify some of the compounds to produce certain flavors (he calls them "flavor-active compounds"); flavors simply not available from dry hopping, or that will be altered beyond providing flavor if boiled too long.

He acknowledges that timing of additions is subjective and that flavor additions starting no sooner than 30 minutes remaining in the boil are traditional practices. However, the flavor and aroma impacts vs. time of boil are quite literally hop dependent. Additions at different times can be expected to yield different flavors. For any significant aroma, we must rely on dry hopping.

Obviously, this is the tip of the iceberg as to what he covers (most of which is supported by graphs and references). But the point is that there is a point to hop additions during the boil, between 30 min to flame out. You should expect flavors that dry hopping or just whirlpool additions won't give you. The critical point likely being that we all typically assume flavor, like aroma, is something that is brought out of the hops when exposed to hot water then just boiled off if cooked too long. This is not the case. Flavors must be created by the cooking of the oils (hydrocarbons) and the active alteration of the compounds in the oils (hydrocarbons) to form flavors that would not otherwise be present. Note too that pro brewers often whirlpool for quite a long time and the wort is still quite hot for that whole time. 'flame-out' or 'whirlpool' additions to them are a different beast to us.



edit: looking at that graph, I'm not sure I can agree but the basic concept seems right. Bitterness will be extracted based on boil time, although I've head but not seen or read that recent research is showing bitterness dropping out above 60 or 90 minute boils. I don't think the flavor and aroma curves are belled. I don't think that shape describes the creation of flavors and aromas nor the loss of those effects vs. time. Also, I'm not sure I'd show aroma arriving so early in the boil personally and it certainly shouldn't taper off at the end of the boil.
 
This is just an 'in my experience' bit here so agree/disagree as you will. In my experience, I think of the aroma addition similarly to the way I do with a dry hop. I have added pellets to a poured beer and it does add hop odor but not really on the flavor (aside from the chunks of hop that get stuck in my teeth). I am sure with the temperature that some flavor may be extracted in a 5/0 min addition, that some heat is required to extract the flavoring without it being broken down/boiled off as the aroma tends to be with the 60/30 minute additions. I also would appreciate hearing more if someone performs the experiment.

On a side note, I am sure that utilization for different additions changes depending on cooling practices too. Think 'No chill' vs plate chiller.
 
Obviously, this is the tip of the iceberg as to what he covers (most of which is supported by graphs and references). But the point is that there is a point to hop additions during the boil, between 30 min to flame out. You should expect flavors that dry hopping or just whirlpool additions won't give you. The critical point likely being that we all typically assume flavor, like aroma, is something that is brought out of the hops when exposed to hot water then just boiled off if cooked too long. This is not the case. Flavors must be created by the cooking of the oils (hydrocarbons) and the active alteration of the compounds in the oils (hydrocarbons) to form flavors that would not otherwise be present. Note too that pro brewers often whirlpool for quite a long time and the wort is still quite hot for that whole time. 'flame-out' or 'whirlpool' additions to them are a different beast to us.

Awesome, this is exactly what I was wondering about! If boiling the oils and flavor compounds changed them to create different flavors. I'll have to read that book. Is it "Designing Great Beers"?

Though I do think that homebrewers can pretty closely mimick the pro brewers' flameout and whirlpool by doing a hop stand. In my experience the wort will stay pretty hot for a good length of time if you just put the lid on it and let it sit after the boil. If the flavor compounds are being altered by the heat, I would think that doing a hop stand at high heat for 20 minutes or so would have a similar effect on flavor as doing a 15 or 20 minute boil addition but then you wouldn't lose as much of the volatile aromatics from the vigorous churning of the boil.
 
Of course they weren't using the hops we are now, many of which are radically different than hops of the past.



Did you skip both Stan Heironymous and Mitch Steele at NHC?:D

Maybe I only heard what I wanted to, but what I took home was anything other than first wort or bittering and flameout or whirpool is a waste of hops.

Ha, I have a ton of respect for both of them and actually poured at their seminars but I was listening the whole time!
 
Check out Stan Heironymous's book "Hops". It's chock full of good information. The one thing I remember learning from a seminar he gave this past spring is that the flavor/aroma changes with the AMOUNT of hops. For example, using 1 ounce of a particular hop might have a significant flavor difference compared to say, 2 ounces of the same hop. For example you might get more fruit flavor and less piney flavor, or vise versa.

The one thing I have planned to do, but never got around to trying is to eliminate the bitter addition completely, and go with a large amount of flavor hops and some dry hops. I hope I don't find the proper bittering amount difficult to find.
 
Check out Stan Heironymous's book "Hops". It's chock full of good information. The one thing I remember learning from a seminar he gave this past spring is that the flavor/aroma changes with the AMOUNT of hops. For example, using 1 ounce of a particular hop might have a significant flavor difference compared to say, 2 ounces of the same hop. For example you might get more fruit flavor and less piney flavor, or vise versa.

The one thing I have planned to do, but never got around to trying is to eliminate the bitter addition completely, and go with a large amount of flavor hops and some dry hops. I hope I don't find the proper bittering amount difficult to find.

I actually just added that book along with Designing Great Beers to my Amazon cart! I'm looking forward to starting them.
 
OK,I've read page one & I'll be damned if I'm reading all of this diatribe. I can't believe I have to go through this again,but what the heck...it's for the good of my brewing breathren,old & new. & here...we...go...
From 27 minutes on down to about 8:30,your getting flavor,according to my direct experiences & observations. & observation is the better part of science after setting up The experiment to start with. From 8:30 to about 5 minutes left in the boil,is the twilight zone (read gray area) between flavor & aroma,once again,according to my experiences & observations. I've spent the majority of my time brewing pale ales in 3 different brewing styles with different extracts,grains,hops,et al. And these are my obeservations resulting from that. MMM,ohhh...ohmadamn...this Maori IPA is friggin good. These new era IPA's are getting good to me.
So,to make a long story short,some 27 minutes down to about 8:30 left is the flavor zone. My own direct experiences with timing & hop amounts dicate that these be as true as humanly possible. Low AA% hops to high to middlin. This sermon is over,go in peace.
 
OK,I've read page one & I'll be damned if I'm reading all of this diatribe. I can't believe I have to go through this again,but what the heck...it's for the good of my brewing breathren,old & new. & here...we...go...
From 27 minutes on down to about 8:30,your getting flavor,according to my direct experiences & observations. & observation is the better part of science after setting up The experiment to start with. From 8:30 to about 5 minutes left in the boil,is the twilight zone (read gray area) between flavor & aroma,once again,according to my experiences & observations. I've spent the majority of my time brewing pale ales in 3 different brewing styles with different extracts,grains,hops,et al. And these are my obeservations resulting from that. MMM,ohhh...ohmadamn...this Maori IPA is friggin good. These new era IPA's are getting good to me.
So,to make a long story short,some 27 minutes down to about 8:30 left is the flavor zone. My own direct experiences with timing & hop amounts dicate that these be as true as humanly possible. Low AA% hops to high to middlin. This sermon is over,go in peace.

Of course this all varies on your system, chilling process, and boiling temperature....

There is lots of good information in this thread; but you only read page 1 of this "diatribe" I guess. :rolleyes:
 
more and more breweries seem to be focusing more on whirlpool/post boil additions and not adding boil additions aside from bittering charge

i recently did a very hopforward APA with nothing but FWH and post boil additions and it had plenty of hop flavor and aroma. my next XPA will be nothing but hops added after flameout

i don't think there's any dispute that 20-0 adds flavor but I feel that you can maximize hop flavor/aroma potential by not boiling off many of the flavorful oils
 
Yeah, we're tap dancing around the issues of the productivity of hops after flame out, during whirlpool or just from different chilling processes as AZ_IPA said. Especially for pro brewers who whirlpool for 20-30 minutes in a vat of near boiling wort, then there is still a lot of time to go when the oils are in the wort and all that wort needs to cool. Thats a lot of time for additional extraction at sub-boil temps. If Stan Heironymous and Mitch Steele are saying anything other than first wort or bittering and flameout or whirpool is a waste of hops, that type of thinking falls right in line with this. On a small scale as a homebrewer, this is not a matter of fact. If you don't whirlpool, such as those of us who use a hop spider and remove our hops at flame out, then immediately chill, as a homebrewer I'm not getting the extended extraction time that they're talking about. Although, as Peterj points out, you can mimic the pros and do a home whirlpool to provide for flavor extraction. You are, literally, still cooking the hop oils.
 
ive only skimmed over the replies but i believe that no one has mentioned the fact that "flavour" is directly related with "aroma". hieronimous also mentions this in the Hops book.

i think that the distinction between "aroma" and "flavour" hops is a bit misleading. given that flavour and aroma are closely related (try holding ur nose with ur fingers while eating something and then releasing ur fingers, if uve done it before, u know what im talking about) it's a bit tricky to discretely discern between "flavour" or "aroma" additions. dont get me wrong, i also believe that 60/15/0 gives a better hop character out of beer, but for me, flavour IS aroma, and viceversa.
 
Weezy said:
Yeah, we're tap dancing around the issues of the productivity of hops after flame out, during whirlpool or just from different chilling processes as AZ_IPA said. Especially for pro brewers who whirlpool for 20-30 minutes in a vat of near boiling wort, then there is still a lot of time to go when the oils are in the wort and all that wort needs to cool. Thats a lot of time for additional extraction at sub-boil temps. If Stan Heironymous and Mitch Steele are saying anything other than first wort or bittering and flameout or whirpool is a waste of hops, that type of thinking falls right in line with this. On a small scale as a homebrewer, this is not a matter of fact. If you don't whirlpool, such as those of us who use a hop spider and remove our hops at flame out, then immediately chill, as a homebrewer I'm not getting the extended extraction time that they're talking about. Although, as Peterj points out, you can mimic the pros and do a home whirlpool to provide for flavor extraction. You are, literally, still cooking the hop oils.

Interesting side note on this - when you whirlpool with an amount o beer measured in barrels, the beer stays pretty hot.

When I whirlpool with 10 gallons of wort on a cool fall day, my wort will drop 30-40 degrees over 30 minutes.

I'm not quite sure what the impacts of this are - other than making repeatability a challenge.
 
ive only skimmed over the replies but i believe that no one has mentioned the fact that "flavour" is directly related with "aroma". hieronimous also mentions this in the Hops book.

i think that the distinction between "aroma" and "flavour" hops is a bit misleading. given that flavour and aroma are closely related (try holding ur nose with ur fingers while eating something and then releasing ur fingers, if uve done it before, u know what im talking about) it's a bit tricky to discretely discern between "flavour" or "aroma" additions. dont get me wrong, i also believe that 60/15/0 gives a better hop character out of beer, but for me, flavour IS aroma, and viceversa.

That's true, but everyone knows what you mean when you say flavor vs. aroma. Aroma is what people describe in the 'nose' portion of beer reviews, flavor on the 'taste'.

There's no doubt that the two are related, but the effects of hops on one or both of those can certainly be affected by your addition practices.
 
Back
Top