Sulfate to Chloride Ratio

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ajdelange

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This is another proposed sticky intended to relieve my typing burden as it is something that is mentioned quite a lot. The intent is not to convince you that you should or shouldn't rely on this ratio as a design parameter but rather to give you a little insight which may help you make an informed decision.

Where did the notion that the ratio was sufficient come from? I believe it was David G. Taylor's chapter "Water" in the Second Edition of Handbook of Brewing edited by Priest and Stewart (CRC Press 2006) in which he says:

"...these ions [sulfate, chloride] are somewhat antagonistic. In an attempt to quantify this point, it has been shown (Ref. 19) that increasing the Cl:SO4 ratio from 1:1 to 2:1 (on a mg/L basis) achieved increased taste panel scores for body and sweetness, with commensurate reduction in drying, bitter, and metallic flavors. In contrast, when the Cl:SO4 ratio was changed from 1:1 to 1:2, the increased sulfate content achieved reduced body and sweetness, but increased bitterness and drying flavors.

"These effects are repeatable at different absolute concentrations of chloride and sulfate. It appears that, in many cases, it is the relative ratio of the two ions that has the major flavor influence, often irrespective of the accompanying cations."

Ref 1: Taylor, D.G,. How water composition affects the taste of beer. Brew. Distill., Int., 11:35-37 1981

I think this to be the source as I started seeing the ratio touted as a design parameter shortly after its appearance.

My first observation is that dry and sweet in the sense of a champagne are definitely antipodal but are bitter and metallic in any sense antipodal to body and sweetness? Furthermore, is the 'dryness' occasioned by sulfate really a reduction in sweetness or a move towards astringency? Taylor himself says sulfate imparts "dryness/astringency". In a paragraph where here gives separate effect. I'll leave this to the readers to decide for themselves.

Now a question to the readership: Does anyone here really think that a beer brewed with 10 mg/L Cl- and 10 mg/L SO4-- is going to taste anything like a beer brewed with 200 mg/L of each? Or that if one goofs and winds up with a ratio of 4:1::SO4:Cl that he can fix the beer by quadrupling the chloride?

Going in we can add as much chloride or as much sulfate as we want to (within reason). We say, in such cases, that there are two degrees of freedom because we are free to set either wherever we want. If we assert that it is only necessary to know the ratio of SO4 to Cl then we no longer have two degrees of freedom but only 1. This is not saying that we still can't put as much of either as we want onto a brew but that it does not matter what the absolute amounts are; only what their ratio is. We all know that adding chloride sweetens the beer, rounds it and enhances its body. We also know that sulfate makes the bitterness harsher, drys the beer and adds metallic tastes (new one on me). Sounds like two degrees of freedom to me but again I'm encouraging people to evaluate this based on their own experiences.

Here's another point to consider. If you say I'm going to use x mg/L chloride and set the sulfate ratio to r times that then you still have 2 degrees of freedom, x and r because y, the sulfate concentration, is just r*x. If, OTOH, you say I'm going to hold chloride between x0 and x1 and set the sulfate ratio to r then you no longer appear to have 2 full degrees of freedom as you have restricted x. Apologists for the use of the ratio often say, for example "Well, it works when the chloride and sulfate are modest." But there are still two degrees of freedom. You just used one up partially when you chose to restrict range.

Those who advise home brewers that they can make a malty beer by increasing chloride to sulfate ratio or a hoppy one by decreasing chloride to sulfate ratio do them a great disservice. One makes a malty beer by adding more malt and a hoppy one by adding more hops. Yes, the minerals do have an effect but they are relatively minor. This does not mean unimportant.
 
I agree that reference seems to be an early mention of a 'ratio'. I note that mentions of 'fullness' for chloride content and 'dryness' for sulfate content appear in Malting and Brewing Science, circa 1981. I'm assuming that the concept predates that mention in the book.

I feel that one of the significant mis-representations of the ratio and the effects of chloride and sulfate is the use of the terms 'malty' and 'bitter' in Mr. Taylor's article. If I recall correctly, he used the dual terms: malty/full and bitter/dry. That was subsequently (and incorrectly) refined to only 'malty' and 'bitter' when John Palmer presented the ratio to homebrewers. I strongly feel that returning to the root effects of sulfate and chloride content would help avoid the brewer's tendency to misapply the ratio and its effects. Chloride content improves the perception of Fullness and Sulfate improves the perception of Dryness.

I realize this doesn't reduce the misuse of the ratio, but it is an important concept that brewers should recognize. As pointed out by AJ, the blind application of this ratio is fool-hardy. There are concentrations of these ions at which the ratio cannot apply...concentrations can be either too low to notice or too overwhelming with respect to the beer flavor. For that reason, I suggested that limiting the application of the sulfate/chloride ratio to those instances when the Chloride content is between roughly 25 and 100 ppm. Within that limitation, I do feel that the ratio can have some application to beer flavor.

Use the sulfate/chloride ratio carefully and don't expect miracles!
 
In page 150 of Water a comprehensive guide for brewing they talk about C.Kaminski having noticed -by experience of brewing in the brewpub for more than 10 years- a real effect and a useful range for leveraging flavor of the beer (talking about ales here) when the Sulfate to chloride ration is 9 to 0,5 so that is 18:1.

It also says at the same page that a minimum of 50 ppm Chloride is needed to influence beer flavor. => In what way this would influence beer flavor? Does it mean that if we have 10 ppm chloride together with 180 ppm of sulfate, chloride will not play a role or the rule becomes false in presence of sulfate?

Also, how would it affect having high chloride ratio to sulfate compare with the opposite, let's say 90 ppm chloride with 5 ppm sulfate.

Any comments on that? Thank you.
 
Finlandbrews, the reference made on Page 150 in Water refers to a range of sulfate to chloride ratios from 9:1(lots of sulfate)to 0.5:1 (twice as much chloride as sulfate)


As an example, on page 141 he references Burton's water ratio as a 51:1 ratio sulfate to chloride. People know Burton as the home of legendary Bass Pale ale; a dry, historic and excellent Pale ale. The Sulfate content is 820ppm and chloride 16ppm. Burton is an extreme example of extremely hard sulfate rich water. Not typical but it works for them. They very likely adjust pH.

I support keeping a sulfate to chloride 1:1 ratio for maltier styles and 2-3:1 for hoppier styles to have benefit when the chloride is 100ppm approximately, calcium in water is kept to 50-150ppm. More important is accounting for residual alkalinity in your water and adjusting pH to reach a good mash pH. 5.2-5.6 is quoted in Water. Burton is a good example of higher sulfate rates working beyond professional sources recommendations.
 
Where did the notion that the ratio was sufficient come from? I believe it was David G. Taylor's chapter "Water" in the Second Edition of Handbook of Brewing edited by Priest and Stewart (CRC Press 2006) in which he says...

Thank you for this clarification. I never believed in "the ratio". Salt is salt, quantity of each on their own is what matters, not the ratio.

Sincerely,

David M. Taylor
BS Chemical Engineering
 
Thank you for this clarification. I never believed in "the ratio". Salt is salt, quantity of each on their own is what matters, not the ratio.

I know that the flavor and perception effects of chloride and sulfate are mentioned in an older text: Malting and Brewing Science. However, I don't think that a ratio was mentioned there. AJ is probably correct about the chapter by David Taylor as the source of this mis-used ratio.

As pointed out by the other David Taylor, the ratio is not very useful when taken out of context and total magnitude of salts.
 
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