mash ratio for no-sparge

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JLem

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Is there a recommended water:grain ratio for a no sparge mash?

Will changing the ratio affect the efficiency?
 
efficiency for no sparge will be much lower.

the ratio is: Use all the water necessary for preboil volume to be reached.
 
right, I get that overall efficiency will be lower.

If I use all the water I would need to get my pre-boil volume, my ratio will change depending on the amount of total grain I am using (my boil volume is going to remain basically the same, while the grain bill gets bigger or smaller depending on my target OG, right?). So how do you estimate that OG? and conversely and more importantly, plan on how much grain to use to hit a desired OG?

For example, if I want to collect 3 gallons of 1.055 pre-boil wort, what should my total grain weight be (for simplicity. assume all pale 2-row)?
 
well the ratio will change slightly but also remember that for every 8 lbs of grain you will absorb about a gallon of water.

I think 50-60% is a good efficiency to expect with no sparge. try it on beersmith and give it a try.
 
So at 60% efficiency, BeerSmith is saying that I need 7.5 pounds of grain. So to get 3 gallons of first runnings, I'd need ~4 gallons of mash water? This will give me a 2 qts/lb ratio.

Now, let's say I want 3 gallons of 1.040 wort. At 60% efficiency I would need 5.5 lbs of grain. To get 3 gallons of runnings, I should use ~3.6 gallons. This then takes my ratio to 2.6 qts/lb. At that high a ratio, can I expect the same efficiency?

I guess the gist of mu concern is that I am thinking this is a circular procedure - use efficiency to detetermine grain bill which then determines mash ratio which then influences efficiency (or does it?). Seems like a moving target.
 
I understand your thinking process and I honestly cannot give you an answer as I am not a no sparge brewer.

I have a buddy (chefchris) who is and he may have more insight. I'll direct him here
 
Hello, I'm at work and therefore don't have my software in front of me.

On my first no sparge I assumed an efficiency of 55% so I adjusted my grain bill to that. I am now getting 60% with no sparge.

Basically i take my grain bill and figure out what my loss to absorption is going to be (.125 gal/lb). Then I add that to my pre-boil volume (7 gallons) to come up with my mash water amount. I actually started using a tad bit more than what I needed just to make sure I can reach my pre-boil volume, that way I can stop draining when I reach it.

As far as efficiency jumping around, mine has slowly climbed below 55% to a little over 50% in four batches. This included two IPAs, a mild and a stout all with varying OGs.
 
The way to think about this is to start with an assumption of 100% conversion efficiency. All that means is that you actually convert all starch to sugar in the mash. Simple example:
10lbs grain with a potential of 1.036 PPG. So, after conversion, you have 360 gravity units. Assuming you lose 1/2qt/lb in absorption, your strike would have to be about 30 qts because 30 qts - 5qts absorption = 25 qts (6.25gallons) preboil volume.

Ok, so you have 360 gravity units in the mash spread across 7.5 gallons of liquid/wort. That means the sugar density (SG) is 1.048 or there's 48 units per gallon.

When you drain that tun or remove the grain bag, whichever, about 1.25 gallons will remain in the grain. Therefore, you lose 48 x 1.25 = 60 gravity units. So, now you have 300 units left. 300 is 83% of 360 so 83% is the best efficiency you can hope for.

You may get a little less than 100% conversion efficiency.
You may get more wort to come out of the grain if you use a grain bag and let it drain.
You may get less wort out of the tun if you have deadspace and leave extra wort behind.

I think 80% is a reasonable expectation if you're sure you have good mash pH, a good crush, and don't leave any wort behind other than what is absorbed and non recoverable from the grain.
 
It sounds like that it is safe to assume that the water:grain ratio has little impact on efficiency, so that if my no sparge set-up/process gets me 60% efficiency at a 1.5 qts/lb mash ratio, I can still expect it to give me 60% efficiency if my ratio changes to 2.5 qts/lb.

Which means, going full circle back to the 1st reply by elmetal, my ratio can be whatever it needs to be to get me to my pre-boil volume.
 
Well, the practical answer is that you should use whatever it takes to get to your preboil volume. Alternatively, you can mash as a lower ratio and then top up with hot water to the full volume prior to removing the grain. However, you're closer to a sparge process without the benefits at that point.
 
My last 2 brews have been no sparge. One the RIS my efficiency was 75% and on my IIPA it was 65%, I am almost positive that the drop in efficiency was because of my mash PH. So you could very easily get 75-80% efficiency like Bobby M said.
 
Anticipating the next post and pre-emptively answering....

"If I can get 80% on no sparge, why would I ever want to sparge?"

Efficiency is going to start falling off faster on big beers due to how much grain you end up using and therefore how much high gravity wort is going to remain in the grain.

Further, it requires a mashing vessel that can hold the full preboil volume, plus the volume of absorption, plus the actual grain.

If you tun is big enough and your OG is moderate, no sparge away.
 
JLem. I do no-sparge grain in a bag and run at about 70%. I use 5-6 lbs of grain and 4 gals preboil volume. To date, I have made several perfectly stable beers at about 4% each time, standard commercial ABV.
 
I attached a spreadsheet to the OP of my no sparge brewing thread. It assumes 95% conversion efficiency, and is dead on with my brews so far. The key is to adjust mash pH, whereas I would typically use salts in the mash and phosphoric acid in the sparge water I add them both up front.

Efficiency drops about 2% for every pound of grain you add to the grainbill, so I don't consider no-sparge practical over 1.060 unless you are planning to partigyle.
 
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