White house beer

Qhrumphf said:

I was wondering the same thing.

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I got 7 on the Honey Ale. Didn't work out the porter though.

Monstar said:

I got 7 on the Honey Ale. Didn't work out the porter though.

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How did you get 7?

Brewtarget tells me 5.3 on the honey ale with windsor yeast, or 6.0 with notty. These are very different yeasts.


The extract honey ale recipe in brewtarget, as it's written as a partial boil with steeping grains, with the other 1oz of fuggles at 45 minutes, and low-attenuating windsor yeast as per recipe, gives me these stats:

OG: 1.058
FG: 1.017 (out of style for an ESB - high by .007)
ABV: 5.3
IBU: 26.4 (out of style for an ESB - low by 3.6)
Color: 12.5
IBU/GU: 0.45 ("Balanced")
Calories / 12oz: 194

Maybe different volume assumptions. I get 1068 OG for 5g and 1061 OG for 5.5g. I used ibrewmaster.

Yeah, in brewtarget i am using a 5.0g batch though.

Also i am assuming that "amber crystal malt" is crystal 60

We are both talking about 6.6lbs of pale LME, 16oz of honey, and steeping grains, right?

Brewtarget is under the impression that steeping grains don't add much in the way of fermentable sugars, and i tend to agree with it. If i tell it that the crystal and biscuit will be mashed, it goes all the way to 1.063 OG and 5.7 ABV.

I've never used brewtarget for extract brewing, as i don't brew with extract. I'm not sure if it needs me to define anything on the mash tab.

PS. I am not the guy who got 7. I just interjected.

I am including the same ingredients. I have never done extract with ibrewmaster so I could be doing something wrong. I was wonder what efficiency the tool uses for the grains. I don't know.

TimpanogosSlim said:

Yeah, in brewtarget i am using a 5.0g batch though.

Also i am assuming that "amber crystal malt" is crystal 60

We are both talking about 6.6lbs of pale LME, 16oz of honey, and steeping grains, right?

Brewtarget is under the impression that steeping grains don't add much in the way of fermentable sugars, and i tend to agree with it. If i tell it that the crystal and biscuit will be mashed, it goes all the way to 1.063 OG and 5.7 ABV.

I've never used brewtarget for extract brewing, as i don't brew with extract. I'm not sure if it needs me to define anything on the mash tab.

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You're missing a pound of light DME.

kehaar said:

You're missing a pound of light DME.

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D'oh. I swear i did not make that mistake with my AG conversions on saturday night. I am still fiddling with those but just to match color and ibu/gu with the extract recipe.

That bumps it up to:

OG: 1.067
FG: 1.020
ABV: 6.1
IBU: 22.9
Color: 13.1
IBU/GU: 0.34 ("Extra Malty")
Cal/12oz: 223

If i switch it to a full boil, the IBU becomes 37.4 (in style for ESB) and ibu/gu goes to 0.56 ("Slightly Hoppy")

But it would seem that the leader of the free world likes a malty brew.

Using a high attenuating yeast does bring it to a 6.9% ABV, which was probably the mistake the commentator in the article made.

TimpanogosSlim said:

Using a high attenuating yeast does bring it to a 6.9% ABV, which was probably the mistake the commentator in the article made.

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You're right, Ray Daniels doesn't know what he's talking about.

Qhrumphf said:

A friend and I are going to brew the Honey Ale in a couple weeks. He's gonna run the numbers based on his system, but we're looking at 9ish pounds base malt. We're debating using US 2-row or Maris Otter (without knowing the extract, I'm guessing either Briess or Muntons based on the weights given). We're also close enough that getting some honey from a local farmers market should be fairly close to the White House honey.

We were also debating what "amber crystal malt" means. I don't think it's amber malt. We're thinking a mid-range Crystal. Probably going with C60L.

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amandabab said:

as English as the rest of the recipe is, I'm assuming English amber/medium/crystal-II crystal malt

40L to high-50L, usually topping at 57
any American 40 or 60 rating or a mix of the two will get you close
(two cultures separated by a common language)

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Qhrumphf said:

I had actually suggested English 55L/medium crystal. He's already got plenty of American 60, so that'll be close enough.

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I can't find a malt called "amber" with a color darker than about 30L.

Most amber malts are not caramel/crystal and aren't suggested as steeping grains.

Weyermann CaraAmber is 23-31L

SouthBay said:

I'm glad they released them, and will likely try them. I dont even brew extract, but i'll give them a shot! Now, i need to source white house honey .....

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Lol I thought the same thing.

MisterTipsy said:

I'll bet Stalin had a mean RIS recipe.

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Lmao

Is anyone else disturbed by the hop utilization in these recipes? I finally plugged the porter recipe into brewtarget as described, and with a partial boil the IBU is just 15.7 - IBU/GU is 0.26 which is right past malty all the way to sweet.

as a full boil it is a more respectable 26.1 0.43 ("slightly malty")

TimpanogosSlim said:

Is anyone else disturbed by the hop utilization in these recipes? I finally plugged the porter recipe into brewtarget as described, and with a partial boil the IBU is just 15.7 - IBU/GU is 0.26 which is right past malty all the way to sweet.

as a full boil it is a more respectable 26.1 0.43 ("slightly malty")

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A number of (relatively recent) experiments have convincingly demonstrated that gravity only very slightly affects hop utilization, which would indicate that all these models vastly underestimate the IBUs for partial boils. The difference has been found to be so slight, that it's better to just use the current algorithms by treating everything as a full boil. The only time it may be more than just a tiny bit off is when you're approaching the saturation point, though at that point you'd be unlikely to perceive the difference anyways.

emjay said:

A number of (relatively recent) experiments have convincingly demonstrated that gravity only very slightly affects hop utilization, which would indicate that all these models vastly underestimate the IBUs for partial boils. The difference has been found to be so slight, that it's better to just use the current algorithms by treating everything as a full boil. The only time it may be more than just a tiny bit off is when you're approaching the saturation point, though at that point you'd be unlikely to perceive the difference anyways.

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OK, I'd heard that hop utilization math was currently being debated. I had not suspected that it would be off by that much, though.

Edit: Ah. I see that if i tell Brewtarget to use Rager rather than Tinseth, the difference is much, much smaller.

emjay said:

A number of (relatively recent) experiments have convincingly demonstrated that gravity only very slightly affects hop utilization, which would indicate that all these models vastly underestimate the IBUs for partial boils. The difference has been found to be so slight, that it's better to just use the current algorithms by treating everything as a full boil. The only time it may be more than just a tiny bit off is when you're approaching the saturation point, though at that point you'd be unlikely to perceive the difference anyways.

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Yes, I agree. SG has no bearing on the hops utilization.

The only time I"ve seen IBUs really differ is in a beer like an IPA or any partial boil where more IBUs are desired.

That doesn't have anything to do with gravity, though- it's just that the most you can ever get in solution is +/- 100 IBUs or so. (That's when the wort is saturated with hop oils and can no longer isomerize them.). That's usually plenty, of course, but if you want a 70 IBU beer, it's impossible to do with a 2.5 gallon boil for a 5 gallon batch. The reason is simple, it's that even if you manged to get 100 IBUs in 2.5 gallons, adding 2.5 gallons of 0 IBU water would mean a max of 50 IBUs total. I think that is why IPAs and barleywines can be disappointing with a partial boil- they just don't have enough bittering.

But for beers that are 50 IBUs or under, I see no problem with treating it all like a full boil and calculating IBUs that way.

Yooper said:

Yes, I agree. SG has no bearing on the hops utilization.

The only time I"ve seen IBUs really differ is in a beer like an IPA or any partial boil where more IBUs are desired.

That doesn't have anything to do with gravity, though- it's just that the most you can ever get in solution is +/- 100 IBUs or so. (That's when the wort is saturated with hop oils and can no longer isomerize them.). That's usually plenty, of course, but if you want a 70 IBU beer, it's impossible to do with a 2.5 gallon boil for a 5 gallon batch. The reason is simple, it's that even if you manged to get 100 IBUs in 2.5 gallons, adding 2.5 gallons of 0 IBU water would mean a max of 50 IBUs total. I think that is why IPAs and barleywines can be disappointing with a partial boil- they just don't have enough bittering.

But for beers that are 50 IBUs or under, I see no problem with treating it all like a full boil and calculating IBUs that way.

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I believe that the maximum concentration is around 120, while our perception has a ceiling around 100 IBUs. So it'd suggest an even narrower range where there's a difference.

And in practice, with a 50% partial boil, most people probably won't notice a difference with beers under 70 IBUs, since they can't really perceive a difference of only a few IBUs. And having made a Pliny clone with a partial boil, I can assure people that using so much hops in such a low volume is kind of a bad idea anyways; whole leaf hops especially, as they can absorb and retain pretty much the ENTIRE partial boil volume!

I have tettnang and vanguard hop pellets on hand so I plugged them into iBrewmaster and came up with 19.6 ibus.

Very funny.

But the only sensible place for that extra ounce of fuggles is 45 minutes, with the EKG. brings the bittering into the right range for an ESB.

TimpanogosSlim said:

Very funny.

But the only sensible place for that extra ounce of fuggles is 45 minutes, with the EKG. brings the bittering into the right range for an ESB.

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Maybe you're supposed to EAT the extra ounce of fuggles :fro:

TimpanogosSlim said:

Very funny.

But the only sensible place for that extra ounce of fuggles is 45 minutes, with the EKG. brings the bittering into the right range for an ESB.

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That ounce would work at 30 min also. But in the video they do comment that the porter has 3 hop additions. They way they said it makes me think the honey ale doesn't have 3. So that supports your 45 min hypothesis.

Yeah. It would be nice if we could know for sure, though.

It is looking like i will not be working on my car this weekend, so maybe i will swing by the LHBS on thursday night and get ingredients for the ale.

Apparently they "distill" in the secondary, otherwise known as the second "fermentator", want the "water" to the top of the secondaries and there is no "settlement" in the finished beer. Also, Tom J didn't have beer brewed at Monticello? He most certainly did. Starr Hill Brewery produced a light ale with lots of corn in the mash called Monticello Reserve in 750s that is supposed to emulate Jefferson's brew (more accurately, Martha Jefferson's brew).

MisterTipsy said:

I'll add these to my ever expanding list of presidential beer recipes not worth brewing.

I want Napoleon's recipe!

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What other presidential beer recipes do you have?

CBMbrewer said:

What other presidential beer recipes do you have?

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Jefferson and Washington, I assume.

rifraf said:

I'd be careful with using Porter LME and the steeping grains as listed. The LME will already have some of those grains and you may end up over doing it.

For what it's worth, I never use anything but the lightest extract I can find and build up the color and flavor with grains.

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Sounds good, definitely don't want to overdo it. I'll go with a pale LME instead.

For the honey ale northern brewer.com put the 1.5 ounces of Fuggles at 15 minutes.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/WhiteHouseHoneyAle.pdf

I think I'm done fiddling with these in brewtarget. Unless someone brings up another issue with them.

It turns out that Light LME is lighter than Pale LME, and it turns out that American 2-Row is lighter still. I had to fiddle with the grains in the honey ale a bit to get the color and gravity to match the extract recipe. I'm happy that it landed on mostly round quantities of grain.

I have made the following assumptions: The missing ounce of fuggle goes in at 45 minutes. "Amber crystal" is most likely similar in color to "amber malt" and "CaraAmber" - meaning thirtyish. I think the honey ale in the video was pretty darn pale, so i think this may be correct.

You can have my BeerXML files here: http://207.135.137.71/WhiteHouseBrews-BeerXML.zip

Text dumps from BT follow:


White House Honey Ale - Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
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Batch Size: 5.269 gal
Boil Size: 6.163 gal
Boil Time: 60.000 min
Efficiency: 75%%
OG: 1.067
FG: 1.020
ABV: 6.1%%
Bitterness: 36.4 IBUs (Tinseth)
Color: 9 SRM (Morey)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Pale Malt (2 Row) US Grain 10.000 lb Yes No 79%% 2 L
Biscuit Malt Grain 8.000 oz Yes No 79%% 23 L
Honey Extract 16.000 oz No Yes 75%% 1 L
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L Grain 1.250 lb Yes No 75%% 30 L
Total grain: 12.750 lb

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Fuggles 4.5%% 0.500 oz Boil 30.000 min Pellet 5.3
East Kent Goldings 4.3%% 1.500 oz Boil 45.000 min Pellet 18.3
Fuggles 4.5%% 1.000 oz Boil 45.000 min Pellet 12.8

Misc
================================================================================
Name Type Use Amount Time
Gypsum Water Agent Boil 2.000 tsp 45.000 min
Irish Moss Fining Boil 2.000 tsp 15.000 min

Yeast
================================================================================
Name Type Form Amount Stage
Danstar - Windsor Ale Ale Dry 0.388 oz Primary

Mash
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Temp Target Time
first Infusion 5.500 gal 201.861 F 155.000 F 60.000 min
second Infusion 2.250 gal 175.852 F 155.000 F 20.000 min

Instructions
================================================================================
0) Add 10.000 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US, 8.000 oz Biscuit Malt, 8.000 oz Biscuit Malt, 1.250 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L, to the mash tun.

1) Bring 5.500 gal water to 201.861 F, 2.250 gal water to 175.852 F, for upcoming infusions.

2) Add 5.500 gal water at 201.861 F to mash to bring it to 155.000 F. Hold for 60.000 min.

3) Add 2.250 gal water at 175.852 F to mash to bring it to 155.000 F. Hold for 20.000 min.

4) Bring the wort to a boil and hold for 60.000 min.

5) Put 1.000 oz Fuggles into boil for 45.000 min.

6) Put 1.500 oz East Kent Goldings into boil for 45.000 min.

7) Put 2.000 tsp Gypsum into boil for 45.000 min.

8) Put 0.500 oz Fuggles into boil for 30.000 min.

9) Put 2.000 tsp Irish Moss into boil for 15.000 min.

10) Stop boiling the wort.

11) Add 16.000 oz Honey, to the boil at knockout.

12) You should have 5.329 gal wort post-boil.
You anticipate losing 0.960 cup to trub and chiller loss.
The final volume in the primary is 5.269 gal.

13) Cool wort and pitch Danstar - Windsor Ale Ale yeast, to the primary.

14) Let ferment until FG is 1.020.

15) Transfer beer to secondary.


White House Honey Porter - Robust Porter
================================================================================
Batch Size: 5.265 gal
Boil Size: 6.159 gal
Boil Time: 60.000 min
Efficiency: 75%%
OG: 1.062
FG: 1.012
ABV: 6.4%%
Bitterness: 27.3 IBUs (Tinseth)
Color: 24 SRM (Morey)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Munich Malt Grain 12.000 oz Yes No 80%% 9 L
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L Grain 16.000 oz Yes No 75%% 20 L
Black (Patent) Malt Grain 6.000 oz Yes No 55%% 500 L
Chocolate Malt (US) Grain 3.000 oz Yes No 60%% 350 L
Honey Extract 16.000 oz No Yes 75%% 1 L
Pale Malt (2 Row) US Grain 8.500 lb Yes No 79%% 2 L
Total grain: 11.813 lb

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Hallertau 4.5%% 0.500 oz Boil 0.000 s Pellet 0.0
Northern Brewer 10.0%% 0.500 oz Boil 45.000 min Pellet 14.9
Northern Brewer 10.0%% 0.500 oz Boil 30.000 min Pellet 12.5

Misc
================================================================================
Name Type Use Amount Time
Irish Moss Fining Boil 2.000 tsp 15.000 min

Yeast
================================================================================
Name Type Form Amount Stage
Danstar - Nottingham Ale Dry 2.232 tsp Primary

Mash
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Temp Target Time
first Infusion 5.500 gal 199.300 F 155.000 F 60.000 min
second Infusion 2.125 gal 175.590 F 155.000 F 20.000 min

Instructions
================================================================================
0) Add 12.000 oz Munich Malt, 16.000 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L, 6.000 oz Black (Patent) Malt, 3.000 oz Chocolate Malt (US), 3.000 oz Chocolate Malt (US), 8.500 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US, to the mash tun.

1) Bring 5.500 gal water to 199.300 F, 2.125 gal water to 175.590 F, for upcoming infusions.

2) Add 5.500 gal water at 199.300 F to mash to bring it to 155.000 F. Hold for 60.000 min.

3) Add 2.125 gal water at 175.590 F to mash to bring it to 155.000 F. Hold for 20.000 min.

4) Bring the wort to a boil and hold for 60.000 min.

5) Put 0.500 oz Northern Brewer into boil for 45.000 min.

6) Put 0.500 oz Northern Brewer into boil for 30.000 min.

7) Put 2.000 tsp Irish Moss into boil for 15.000 min.

8) Put 0.500 oz Hallertau into boil for 0.000 s.

9) Stop boiling the wort.

10) Add 16.000 oz Honey, to the boil at knockout.

11) You should have 5.325 gal wort post-boil.
You anticipate losing 0.960 cup to trub and chiller loss.
The final volume in the primary is 5.265 gal.

12) Cool wort and pitch Danstar - Nottingham Ale yeast, to the primary.

13) Let ferment until FG is 1.012.

14) Transfer beer to secondary.

kehaar said:

For the honey ale northern brewer.com put the 1.5 ounces of Fuggles at 15 minutes.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/WhiteHouseHoneyAle.pdf

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Kit instructions are always wrong. It's the law or something.

TimpanogosSlim said:

Kit instructions are always wrong. It's the law or something.

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It's not a law. Just an executive order.

TimpanogosSlim said:

Kit instructions are always wrong. It's the law or something.

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I have never used kits or their instructions, but there's only one company whose kit instructions I've consistently heard positive things about, and that's Northern Brewer

emjay said:

I have never used kits or their instructions, but there's only one company whose kit instructions I've consistently heard positive things about, and that's Northern Brewer

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Except for where it says that you should ferment all beers for 2 weeks before moving to a 4 week secondary, bottle, and then start drinking 1-2 weeks later other than that not too bad.

bottlebomber said:

Except for where it says that you should ferment all beers for 2 weeks before moving to a 4 week secondary, bottle, and then start drinking 1-2 weeks later other than that not too bad.

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Meh, I don't secondary but those instructions seem fine for most styles, if not a bit short on carbonation times.

emjay said:

Meh, I don't secondary but those instructions seem fine for most styles, if not a bit short on carbonation times.

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I suppose... I've actually started doing secondaries recently after years of brewing for certain styles in an attempt to get crystal clear bottle conditioned beer with very little sediment. I've been crashing the primary, transferring to a little gelatin, and crashing for another week or so. Results in very clean beer. It's not necessary but it is great for the old OCD.

Skagdog said:

View attachment 74580

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OMG lol.

kehaar said:

It's not a law. Just an executive order.

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LoLoL good one.

DaBills said:

OMG lol.

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DaBills said:

LoLoL good one.

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Sir, your balls must have descended THIS low, in order to post in the forum.

emjay said:

Sir, your balls must have descended THIS low, in order to post in the forum.

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LoL i also enojyed this one. Keep it up!

When I heard this, there was no way I could imagine the president toiling over a kettle of wort somewhere in the White House... This is obviously a PR stunt and if we're lucky, some true brewer will be there the next time he whips out a bottle of the WH brew to ask some real questions... Someone has to find out who actually brews this stuff.

chessking said:

This.

Obama is not a home brewer. He drinks beer. The only reason this is a story is because a lot of folks with more free time on their hands than sense, made it a story.

Oh yeah, there is nothing wrong with extract beer. Lets not eat our own. Extract makes great beer. However, as the leader of the free world, you would think that the Pentagon, or the Military Industrial Complex, could devise a a killer single tier, 20 gal, three vessle system.......

.... Oh sorry, Lonnie already did that.

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Then it would be called the ...Brutus One