WARNING! for Ultimate Brewery Cleaner users

Williams 728
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How can what is being described as "pitting" be removed with any other cleaner? Are those of you who are calling this "pitting" sure that it isn't a deposit of some kind? A pit would be a hole. Another cleaner like BKF shouldn't be able to eliminate a pit.
 
billtzk said:
How can what is being described as "pitting" be removed with any other cleaner? Are those of you who are calling this "pitting" sure that it isn't a deposit of some kind? A pit would be a hole. Another cleaner like BKF shouldn't be able to eliminate a pit.
Click to expand...

Sure you can. You thin the rest of the material to match. :D

If it is a small reaction with the base material the material can swell causing a bump and crater. Another cleaner that neutralizes the reaction may be able to reduce the amount of pitting by removing the swelling. Also as you not there could be some kind of deposit instead or in addition to.

Craig
 
The outcome of this interests me greatly as I just got a few #'s of UBC and have not used any yet. I will wait and see what results AHB comes up with before using any.
 
The good thing about how they mix UBC is they only mix in about 100# batches or so, don’t think for 1 minute that I wont use this stuff again. I have all the confidence in the world in Forrest and Jeff to find out what the problem is and make the necessary corrections, they have been nothing but attentive and very willing to make everything right, and that speaks volumes of their company.
The sample is in the hands of Jeff (the guy that made the UBC) as of this morning, and he is going to test the sample that I used and get back to us.
Cheers
JJ
 
Any of you out there that has it why not mix some up and try it out ons some scrap copper and see what it does. If nothing, then you are all set.
 
Jaybird said:
The good thing about how they mix UBC is they only mix in about 100# batches or so, don’t think for 1 minute that I wont use this stuff again. I have all the confidence in the world in Forrest and Jeff to find out what the problem is and make the necessary corrections, they have been nothing but attentive and very willing to make everything right, and that speaks volumes of their company.
The sample is in the hands of Jeff (the guy that made the UBC) as of this morning, and he is going to test the sample that I used and get back to us.
Cheers
JJ
Click to expand...


Are you kidding? Because they mix UBC in 100# doesn't relive AHB of responsibility of quality. I for one will not be using this product until they have a chance to review your sample. I totally understand AHB's commitment and commend their efforts for the same. I however am not going to use the product until AHB has a chance to review the sample.
 
We are still looking into the cause of the problem. It appears to be a deposit and not pitting.
 
If one was to make a guess at what happened, it looks like the copper was in contact with the stainless steel components, nice galvanic corrosion problem there. Looks like nice deposits of sodium carbonate residue on the copper with copper oxide deposit on SS parts, wash the stainless parts with ammonia to remove the copper, wash copper in a mild acid to remove carbonate deposits. In future one might want to clean dissimilar metals seperately to prevent creative chemistry projects like this.
 
I spent lots of time trying to recreate the issue using the returned sample. First I just mixed at the same ratio described by Jaybird (maybe a little stronger) in a stainless kettle with an immersion chiller at 140F and held it at that temperature for 45 minutes. After examining the chiller I couldn't find anything such as deposits or pitting.
Then I got a little crazy (don't try this at home) and took a car battery charger (I considered using a Miller welder in stick welding configuration, but decided against it).
I used a racking cane holder to hold a 1' long piece of copper, about 6" of it went into the solution, and attached the positive connection on it and the negative went to the wort chiller still in the hot solution which I heated up to about 160F and threw in my stainless mash paddle for good measure. I set the charger for 12v and the gauge read about 6 amps when I plugged it in. Lots of tiny gas bubbles (hydrogen and oxygen production?) from the positive electrode. I ran it for about 4 minutes. You can see the positive electrode in the picture - it's the blue one with what I am guessing to be a copper carbonate finish. I dried the electrode in my oven. I then added several ounces of UBC to the mixture and repeated the process with a new electrode. I ran the battery charger for about 5 minutes, then let it sit for 24 hours, (the thermometer in the kettle read 34F this morning) dried it in the oven and took all of the pieces to work. I rinsed the second electrode with cold water, wiped it once with a paper towel. No deposits. The finish looks like it was roughened up, but actually feels smoother. It is the one on the right. I soaked it in a hot StarSan solution.
The immersion chiller that ended up serving as the negative electrode (partially insulated from the bottom of the kettle by a coil of PVC hose) came out looking just fine, no deposits (the sodium ions should have been attracted to it), but there was some discoloration from the gasses being produced by the positively charged piece of copper on the second application of electricity.
So then I took a section of copper, soaked it in a strong solution made from the returned sample for 30 minutes in water that started out at about 150F, then I removed it, put it in a wet paper towel, sprinkled some of the cleaner in question on it and made a paste of the solution to surround the piece of copper, wrapped it in another paper towel, wrapped that in aluminum foil and put in in our toaster oven at about 200F for 30 minutes. I cooled in in the sink under cool running water and ran a paper towel over it once to remove any paste. No deposits, no pitting, just obvious discoloration. It is the piece on the left in the picture. I cut it in half and soaked the other half in hot StarSan solution for 10 minutes, rinsed and wiped it with a wet paper towel. No deposits, no pitting, but some discoloration.
copper.jpg

First piece of copper, baked in a paste of the returned product.
Second piece is the same after a soak in StarSan.
Third piece, after 6 amps were run through it - the positive electrode side.
Fourth piece, a more tortured piece after a StarSan soak.

Any other suggested torture tests?
I have no idea what could have made it leave such deposits (and nicely spaced deposits) but if anyone has suggestions I'll do what I can.

No blue discoloration to the mash paddle thrown in. There were blue solids in the kettle this morning but since copper carbonate is not water soluble that was not surprising.
The copper used in the tests was refrigeration grade, the same stuff we use to make our immersion and counterflow chillers. It might be more pure than water grade.

We'll send you a bottle of Saniclean to run through your system. It doesn't clean that well but leaves a nice finish on copper and stainless. It has phosphoric acid in it, so DO NOT mix it with PBW, UBC, or anything else!!!

If anyone is wondering why I did the electricity thing... a solution of sodium carbonate (yes, I realize there are other ingredients) in water, carbonate ions should head towards the positive electrode, and sodium towards the negative electrode... according to the reading I did at least while trying to find out what types of deposits might have formed on the copper.

-Jeff
 
Jeff,

What about just submersing some copper and sprinkling some UBC on it (no mixing)? You may have tried that. Over the weekend I used a brewery cleaner (don't know what brand as it was given to me by a friend to try) to clean the metal filter we have on the exhaust of our kitchen stove. It wasn't getting the grease off (I was being impatient) so I added more, but I did not mix it. I noticed some pitting on it when I went to rinse it - where the cleaner landed and just sat. The filter is made of what looks like tin or something (something soft) so I'm sure that was the problem. Anyway, just a suggestion.
 
If StarSan didn't foam that wouldn't be a problem.. but it does.
There is a similar product to Star San that doesn't foam. Saniclean. While the Austin Homebrew website lists it as a sanitizer, I don't believe 5-Star recommends it for this use. It might have something to do with the federal laws regarding labeling something a "sanitizer". The labels for the product suggest using it after a caustic cleaning cycle and rinse (PBW in the case of 5-Star).
Send me a message with your address and I'll see if I can get a bottle out to you tomorrow, Forrest will pick up the tab.
I'm unable to explain what happened in your situation.
-Jeff
 
caskconditioned said:
Jeff,

What about just submersing some copper and sprinkling some UBC on it (no mixing)?
Click to expand...

I've tried that, when I tested the immersion chiller I only had 3 gallons of solution made, so some of the chiller was above the level of the liquid. So some of the particles rested above the liquid level where they were exposed to steam the entire time. They would cling, but a cold water rinsing removed them with no scrubbing.
 
Jeff,
How about using 4 pieces of copper.
The first, as control, use material mixed in solution at recommended amount and complete rinse.
Second, use material mixed in solution at recommended amount and inadequate rinse. Third, use material mixed in solution at recommended amount and no rinse.
Fourth, triple the recommended material amount mixed in solution and no rinse.
Allow all samples to air dry.
 
I would also coat any test pieces in moderate SG wort and or trub. There could easily be a reaction that is being missed with just copper and clean water/PBW.
 
Jaybird said:
Jeff
Just wondering, are you suggesting I run starsan through my system? Will that clean up all the copper?
JJ
Click to expand...

Star San wont foam in your system J... I run it through my HERMS all the time. Unless you are spraying it, the March pump doesnt have enough force to whip up a foam. Star San is completely reasonable to be used in your system J... I do it all the time. And, you know me... I invented the scrubby!

YOU CAN RUN STAR SAN THROUGH A SYSTEM WITH NO REAL FOAMING
 
The Pol said:
Star San wont foam in your system J... I run it through my HERMS all the time. Unless you are spraying it, the March pump doesnt have enough force to whip up a foam. Star San is completely reasonable to be used in your system J... I do it all the time. And, you know me... I invented the scrubby!

YOU CAN RUN STAR SAN THROUGH A SYSTEM WITH NO REAL FOAMING
Click to expand...

Pol
Is Star San a good enough cleaner? I know it’s a GREAT sanitizer, but a cleaner?
I scoured my IC for about 2 hours then rinsed really good and used it. It turned out just fine. I am not going to worry tooooo tooo much about the copper transfer lines. I pulled them all apart cleaned them as good as I could with brushes and any tools I could construct to get in them. They looked ah, OK at best, we will see. I brewed a batch (a tester batch) and I am going to see if this reflects any weird problems. If it does, I will have a killer system for sale CHEEP.......J/J.... I am sure it will be just fine.
I didn't scrubby though my SWMBO forgot to get me one (It was probably my fault) when she was out. I had to use a bag.


So I guess you can say it Pol "JJ Your not scrubby worthy" ****JJ bows his head in shame****
 
Hugh_Jass said:
Jeff,
Anything further?
Click to expand...

Nothing new, I only have about an ounce of the suspect sample left.

The only test I did that did any damage to copper included a mix with a hot nitric acid solution to which I sprinkled some of the sample into. It boiled violently when I added it as expected. The source of the nitric acid was 5-star's Acid #6 which I have used a few times to passivate high end brewing systems I've built ($4,000+). These were HERMS type systems, and the Acid #6 did not produce visible damage to the copper coil, but the water did turn a little blue-green indicating it probably did strip some of the copper.
On those systems I originally cleaned with hot Ultimate Brewery Cleaner, did a hot water rinse, then ran the hot Acid #6 through them.

Copper is known to be not very reactive, one exception being nitric acid. Reading about copper tubing pitting in residential plumbing the presence of aluminum in the water source showed a high incidence of pitting (but not something I would expect to show up overnight, as in Jaybirds case.)

Trying to follow the nitric acid or nitrogen theory...
I tried diammonium phosphate and other yeast nutrients containing nitrogen sprinkled onto a hot low gravity wort with copper in it. I got some similar deposits there, but they looked quite a bit different. It was a huge dose of each nutrient, basically coating the surface. The wort without additional nitrogen sources came out clean.

That is the only thing I can think of in Jaybirds case: maybe an accidental addition of something that had a huge amount of nitrogen or a really f'd up water source.

I've personally used somewhere around 100lbs over the last 4 years, including several test batches in development that didn't work as well or I thought were too dangerous for the average homebrewer to handle or might have contained phosphates that I didn't want to use because of the potential for runoff into rivers.

The only thing I've damaged with it is aluminum, and I knew before hand that it could react with aluminum. That was a couple of years ago and I had an old aluminum pot that wasn't cleaning up, so I added a few tablespoons of UBC to it while it was boiling, still on the stove so the bottom was really hot. It formed a black layer that I couldn't get off.

I haven't gotten around to testing high chlorine water with it UBC and copper, that is next on the list.

-Jeff
 
Caskconditioned
run those metal exhaust filters in the dishwasher.


caskconditioned said:
Jeff,

What about just submersing some copper and sprinkling some UBC on it (no mixing)? You may have tried that. Over the weekend I used a brewery cleaner (don't know what brand as it was given to me by a friend to try) to clean the metal filter we have on the exhaust of our kitchen stove. It wasn't getting the grease off (I was being impatient) so I added more, but I did not mix it. I noticed some pitting on it when I went to rinse it - where the cleaner landed and just sat. The filter is made of what looks like tin or something (something soft) so I'm sure that was the problem. Anyway, just a suggestion.
Click to expand...
 
O.K., what's the final vote on UBC? My system will be all stainless with CIP piping. I plan on circulating either PBW or UBC through my tubing/keggles using my march pump. Anyone see a problem with doing this? And finally, is a home brew supply place the only place to get either/both? Thanks - Dwain
 
Dwain said:
O.K., what's the final vote on UBC? My system will be all stainless with CIP piping. I plan on circulating either PBW or UBC through my tubing/keggles using my march pump. Anyone see a problem with doing this? And finally, is a home brew supply place the only place to get either/both? Thanks - Dwain
Click to expand...

Whatever happened with UBC discoloring Jaybird's brew system was not normal, so I would say either is just fine. But if it were me, I would go with the cleaner that has been used in both professional and home breweries with no problems. PBW has been pretty standard and a great product for me...if you're going to spend the money on a nice SS system, why risk it? My vote is for PBW.
 
kladue said:
If one was to make a guess at what happened, it looks like the copper was in contact with the stainless steel components, nice galvanic corrosion problem there. Looks like nice deposits of sodium carbonate residue on the copper with copper oxide deposit on SS parts, wash the stainless parts with ammonia to remove the copper, wash copper in a mild acid to remove carbonate deposits. In future one might want to clean dissimilar metals seperately to prevent creative chemistry projects like this.
Click to expand...

The above is the solution to the mystery. The corrosion was caused by a galvanic reaction between the copper and the stainless. Case closed.
 
I am (for now) sticking w/ the Oxyclean every brew and the PBW every 3rd brew. I have been really happy w/ the outcome. I did that for years on my system and know it works.
Cheers
JJ
 
Dwain said:
Sorry to repeat, but
Click to expand...

AHB is the only place you can buy UBC as they make it in house, as far as I know they dont distrubute it to anyone but home brewers. As far as PBW that is made by 5 star and you can buy it from any 5 star distributer, they are everywhere.
 
Catt22 said:
The above is the solution to the mystery. The corrosion was caused by a galvanic reaction between the copper and the stainless. Case closed.
Click to expand...
This would be my guess too. In the galvanic 'test' that Infidel did he had a test coupon of copper tubing but also had a copper IC in the solution...and the IC and test coupon were the anode/cathode. Then he 'threw the mash paddle in for good measure'. It looks like the test should have been such that the anode/cathode were the test coupon and mash paddle.
 
I guess my feeling is that if the stuff doesn't work well with copper and stainless, what are they doing selling it for homebrewing? Just about every home brewer I know personally and have seen on this board have a mixture of copper and stainless in their brewery. If 5-star can make a product that cleans both metals safeley, that is the industry go-to product IMHO. Maybe the creators of UBC can do some reformulating so that this galvanic reaction doesn't happen.
 
The galvanic reaction can happen with any solution which acts as an electrolyte. The same thing may well occur with PBW if dissimilar metals are left to soak together in the solution. I'm not a chemist, so I can't say for sure, but I think the PBW contains similar chemicals. The way to avoid the corrosion problems is to clean the dissimilar metals separately. When that is not possible as with CIP systems using both copper and SS, about the only thing you can do shorten the contact time.
 
Catt22 said:
The galvanic reaction can happen with any solution which acts as an electrolyte. The same thing may well occur with PBW if dissimilar metals are left to soak together in the solution. I'm not a chemist, so I can't say for sure, but I think the PBW contains similar chemicals. The way to avoid the corrosion problems is to clean the dissimilar metals separately. When that is not possible as with CIP systems using both copper and SS, about the only thing you can do shorten the contact time.
Click to expand...

My point is that while any solution "may" have this effect, PBW does not. I've never encountered it in my brewery, and neither have I heard about this sort of thing happening anywhere else. UBC has a problem with cleaning dissimilar metals together, while PBW does not appear to.

Has anyone done an experiment with PBW similar to what was done with UBC? Specifically, adding copper and stainless steel to the same solution of PBW? If I had some UBC on hand, I'd do some side-by-side testing myself...but I don't think I'll spend any money on that product until this issue is resolved.
 
I don't use either product, so I can't speak from direct experience on this. I still think the same thing could happen with PBW under similar circumstances. The problem is not with the product, but with the procedure. I've had something similar happen with oxyclean a long time ago. It was copper and aluminum in that case. Any solution which has significant electrolytic properties can facilitate a galvanic reaction.
 
Austinhomebrew said:
This appears to be an isolated incident. We have sent out a literal ton of this product with nothing but good feedback.

Are there any people out there who have used Ultimate Brewery Wash on their copper wort chiller several times and have had this problem as well?

Forrest
Click to expand...

Just wanted to let everyone know there is another bad batch of this stuff out right now. I recently let the recommended dosage sit in a corney keg overnight and the inside of the keg was extremely rough, like microscopic pits all over. I used an SOS type pad (mild) and scrubbed like hell to get the smooth surface back. I emailed AHBS about this a day ago, no response yet. Ill update when they contact me.
 

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