bigljd
Well-Known Member
ROTFLMAO. I've tried them all buddy, and am drawing from personal experience, not from what I read from one author on the interwebs. Why don't you let the thread carry on as the OP intended.
Organic vs. chemical fertilizer for hops
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ROTFLMAO. I've tried them all buddy, and am drawing from personal experience, not from what I read from one author on the interwebs. Why don't you let the thread carry on as the OP intended.
jfrank85
Well-Known Member
Why can't we use both? Can't we just use a nice nutrient rich soil mix and still fertilize with "chemicals"? Honestly I've never had an issue.
bigljd
Well-Known Member
And this is what my plants look like.
Organic lettuce and herbs in containers on my front porch. They grow just as fast as the plants I used to grow with Miracle gro, and are much more healthy.
Hydrangea grown organically in a big container. The thing couldn't be happier.
Organic bee and butterfly garden.
Fully organic vegie garden - at the end of the garden (can't see them in this pic) there are two large containers of garlic that we grow organically every year.
I'm not saying you can't grow plants like this with regular fertilizers - that choice is up to the grower. I've done it both ways. But I'll emphatically restate my previous point - to say you can't grow amazing plants in containers using organics is silly.
Show me your plants now Bob.
Organic lettuce and herbs in containers on my front porch. They grow just as fast as the plants I used to grow with Miracle gro, and are much more healthy.
Hydrangea grown organically in a big container. The thing couldn't be happier.
Organic bee and butterfly garden.
Fully organic vegie garden - at the end of the garden (can't see them in this pic) there are two large containers of garlic that we grow organically every year.
I'm not saying you can't grow plants like this with regular fertilizers - that choice is up to the grower. I've done it both ways. But I'll emphatically restate my previous point - to say you can't grow amazing plants in containers using organics is silly.
Show me your plants now Bob.
I've done both organic and chemical nutes -- in the grand scheme of things they are basically the same thing to plants. So stop the ignorant bickering.
Organics is the ideal way but you need to plan ahead, get your soil mix down, etc. The only reason I say organics is ideal is because if you do it right, it is incredibly low maintenance, has incredibly good results, and the end products always seem to be better vs chemical nutes. It can also be cheaper if you do your own composting and your soil will need less amendments year after year to keep it nutrient rich. It's more work up front but the long-term results are worth it IMO. There is a reason my family eats from the 1 acre garden and not the 4000 acre commercial grow. Then again, that 1 acre took several years to get developed....
Chemicals are convenient, easy to use, and are immediately available to the plant. Some organic nutes can take 3+ months to become available to the plant which isn't ideal. If your plant is showing a deficiency, it needs nutrients now -- not 3 months from now. The down side is you can burn plants by not dosing correctly. You can also damage the soil and disrupt the natural ecosystem around and under the soil.
My garden is organic-based but I'm not afraid to pull out chemical nutes if my plants are showing a deficiency. I'm not selling or claiming them to be organic so I get the best of both worlds -- the long-term benefits of organic and the instant results of chemical based when I can tell my plants need it.
Organics is the ideal way but you need to plan ahead, get your soil mix down, etc. The only reason I say organics is ideal is because if you do it right, it is incredibly low maintenance, has incredibly good results, and the end products always seem to be better vs chemical nutes. It can also be cheaper if you do your own composting and your soil will need less amendments year after year to keep it nutrient rich. It's more work up front but the long-term results are worth it IMO. There is a reason my family eats from the 1 acre garden and not the 4000 acre commercial grow. Then again, that 1 acre took several years to get developed....
Chemicals are convenient, easy to use, and are immediately available to the plant. Some organic nutes can take 3+ months to become available to the plant which isn't ideal. If your plant is showing a deficiency, it needs nutrients now -- not 3 months from now. The down side is you can burn plants by not dosing correctly. You can also damage the soil and disrupt the natural ecosystem around and under the soil.
My garden is organic-based but I'm not afraid to pull out chemical nutes if my plants are showing a deficiency. I'm not selling or claiming them to be organic so I get the best of both worlds -- the long-term benefits of organic and the instant results of chemical based when I can tell my plants need it.
Gladly.
Keep in mind. What you and I do are vastly different. You're mostly starting in containers and then transplanting them in-ground. I grow full-fruiting, full-flowering plants in containers throughout their entire life cycle. I began as a 100% organic grower just like anyone else, for the supposed "health allure", being friendly to mother nature, all that bullcrap. I quickly realized that I was on the wrong path for container gardening (whether indoors or outdoors). Organic ferts smell if you're an indoor grower, they don't provide adequate soil tilth/structure, the nutrients are not immediately available to plants, they are more difficult to measure especially if you supplement growth with some synthetic ferts, and therefore you never know if you're under-doing it or over-doing it.
By the way, these were all fertilized (weakly, weekly) with Miracle Gro 12-4-8. Plants don't care how the nutrients are delivered as long as their delivered adequately and appropriately. For container growth however, inorganic fertilizer is the way to go for many, many reasons. I don't have anything against organics for in-ground plants. Organic is superior for in-ground growth so good for you. Despite all this, organic ferts are not superior in all circumstances. It isn't going to give you healthier, larger, more robust plants. It isn't going to be healthier for you. Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium and all the minors are supplied just as well with inorganic vs. organic ferts. This has nothing to do with chemical pesticides, or other scary chemicals being absorbed by your plants.
My main goal here is to prove that organic gardening is not always superior. There are just as many disadvantages with it as inorganic gardening depending on the circumstance. For container gardening, organic methods are NOT superior... they are a distant second choice. The truth is that "Organic" is a very polarizing word. And the media has led you to believe inorganic = bad, organic = good... This is not always the case and you would be wise to learn the whole truth. I'm not trying to be mean or patronizing, so I would appreciate if you knew that I'm not here to dismiss your opinions.
Nothing quite like an Internet gardening d1ck swinging contest. 
Now both of you knock it off.
Now both of you knock it off.
bigljd
Well-Known Member
Nothing quite like an Internet gardening d1ck swinging contest.
Now both of you knock it off.
LOL, next comes the peeing contest.
Nice plants Bob - they look very nice. Never said organic is always better, just wanted to let people know organics do work in containers.
Now maybe we can get back to growing hops and making beer.
Truce
I'm debating a water culture cascade project. I'm pretty damn busy with my front landscape and current hop garden in the back though so I might try that next year. I did it with cantaloupes and they grew into fruits that look identical to gourmet store bought.
dragonbreath11
Well-Known Member
Great plants bigljd and bobbrews. Both look awesome. I'm a big fan of organic gardening and just don't like putting man-made manufactured chemicals on plants container or otherwise. I'm not saying you can't have the same yield with organics as chemicals but to me there's just a certain greater satisfaction I feel when my plants mature from seed to harvest organically. To each his own though.
This is my approach, also.
Nothing quite like an Internet gardening d1ck swinging contest.
Now both of you knock it off.
My eggplant is bigger than your eggplant
Food for thought:
People have been quite successful at growing plants in containers via hydroponic or aeroponic methods. In these container cultures, there are no organics. There are controlled synthetic fertilizer applications, clay or plastic rocks, or fiberglass-based sponge material... and with aeroponic growth, the roots simple dangle in mid air! Yet with both containerized methods, the plants grow much faster and more vigorously than plants grown in soil. So organic container soil culture is unnecessary at best and counter-productive at worst.
Organic methods are great for in-ground growth... not so much containers. Both will work, but there are many other, far more superior container media choices than manure and compost. You might be able to 'make' the organic fertilizer approach work if you are so inclined, or if your ideology dictates it, but it really is a little like stumbling around in the dark because you have very little control over the 'what and when' of your plant's nutritional needs. Soluble inorganic fertilizers offer the clarity of knowing exactly how much of what you are applying, and it's immediately available, regardless of soil biotic activity.
When all is said and done, with container growth, soil is completely unnecessary, thus feeding the soil with organics is completely unnecessary. Plants don't care about the soil in this environment; they care about access to nutrients. The truth is that nutrients are much easier to supply in a controlled way through IN-organic fertilizer usage. Abiding by an all-organic approach will not make you live longer or be healthier. You're not technically using chemicals with either method... it's more a matter of organic vs. inorganic, and how the provided nutrients are processed by the plant for immediate uptake vs. feeding the soil to promote microorganism culture in said soil over a prolonged period.
People have been quite successful at growing plants in containers via hydroponic or aeroponic methods. In these container cultures, there are no organics. There are controlled synthetic fertilizer applications, clay or plastic rocks, or fiberglass-based sponge material... and with aeroponic growth, the roots simple dangle in mid air! Yet with both containerized methods, the plants grow much faster and more vigorously than plants grown in soil. So organic container soil culture is unnecessary at best and counter-productive at worst.
Organic methods are great for in-ground growth... not so much containers. Both will work, but there are many other, far more superior container media choices than manure and compost. You might be able to 'make' the organic fertilizer approach work if you are so inclined, or if your ideology dictates it, but it really is a little like stumbling around in the dark because you have very little control over the 'what and when' of your plant's nutritional needs. Soluble inorganic fertilizers offer the clarity of knowing exactly how much of what you are applying, and it's immediately available, regardless of soil biotic activity.
When all is said and done, with container growth, soil is completely unnecessary, thus feeding the soil with organics is completely unnecessary. Plants don't care about the soil in this environment; they care about access to nutrients. The truth is that nutrients are much easier to supply in a controlled way through IN-organic fertilizer usage. Abiding by an all-organic approach will not make you live longer or be healthier. You're not technically using chemicals with either method... it's more a matter of organic vs. inorganic, and how the provided nutrients are processed by the plant for immediate uptake vs. feeding the soil to promote microorganism culture in said soil over a prolonged period.
Nothing quite like an Internet gardening d1ck swinging contest.
Now both of you knock it off.
I just about pissed myself laughing when I read this
I just cant see how the soil health isnt important if your plants roots are living in it. I agree nutrients are nutrients your right there. But its important to maintain a healthy growing medium to prevent moulds and disease. I fight that without using pesticides and herbicides. I say to each their own as long as the plants are healthy and getting what they need.
It's not food for thought. You've said the same thing repeatedly. Nothing new here to think about. Maybe it's just all the chemical ferts you use that have built up in your nervous system, though, so I'll give you a pass. Just this once.
Physical plant growth is a basic I/O system. We all get it. Healthy plants require less maintenance and IME, organically grown and biodiverse crops require the least amount of effort to keep nutrients balanced and pests at bay. Granted, native soils are different from region to region and we are blessed with some of the most fertile soils on Earth here in the Midwest. I get it that you are fixated on container growing, but that is a VERY small subset of hop growers (yes, that's what this forum is about) as a whole.
Says you. It makes me happier and I have to buy fewer chemicals that run off into the soil and I have to apply fewer pesticides and herbicides because I am not indiscriminately creating nutrient "blooms"... I will assert that it will indeed, on average, help me live a longer and more personally fulfilling life.
Again. If it makes you happy, SUPER FANTASTIC FUN TIME! And in containers I tend to agree with you (for the most part), but the preaching is quite tiresome (and hilariously ironic since you purport the organic supporters to be the preachers of the bunch).
Seriously, let's just pull out our eggplants and measure them.
Actually, it's not the same information. I just explained that you can grow plants successfully without even using soil via hydroponics & aeroponics. Therefore, if you don't need soil to grow healthy plants, and the whole idealogy of organic gardening is to feed the plants via the soil, then what's the point?
Matter of opinion. I would say that both idealogies have advantages and disadvantages when it comes to the amount of overall effort put forth. Inorganic growers don't have to bother with mixing composted manure, greens and browns, constantly 'feeding the soil', the pests attracted by recycled animal & plant waste based composts, etc. - In hydroponics and aeroponics, inorganic growers don't even need soil. I would say that is really 'minimal effort'.
It is not about fixation. The subject here is Organic vs. Inorganic. I've attempted to explain that both methods can be beneficial depending on the circumstances, i.e. Container growth vs. In-Ground growth. But that has fallen on deaf ears by a few of you because people falsely choose to believe, (whole-heartedly and without factual scientific evidence) that a 100% organic idealogy is the best choice in any and every scenerio. This is simply not the case. And I've seen plenty of hop growers growing in containers as of late.
I'm glad you are happier, but you're talking about two different things here. Pesticides and herbicides are chemicals; Inorganic fertilizers are not a chemicals. We're talking about things like N-P-K here, not harsh, environmentally harmful chemicals.
Sometimes people will pick and choose what to post on when they see general spread of misinformation. I am doing just that. Saying that inorganic fertilizers are harmful to plants, the environment, and humans is completely absurd. These fertilizers can be superior for plant growth depending on the circumstance.
See below illustrations on Aeroponics. The roots are not living in this soil, because there is no soil. The roots are hanging in mid air and sprayed with a water-diluted synthetic fertilizer every couple hours or so. Google aeroponics and hydroponics, and you will see plenty of real-life examples of how fast and vigorous plants grow via these systems.
Just one example.
Fert run-off from factory farming across the Midwest causes huge algae blooms that are not natural and support invasive species population explosions in rivers like the Illinois, Missouri, and Mississippi rivers.
See: Carp, Asian.
Please, sell crazy elsewhere telling me it has no effect on the environment because it's a natural element and not a "chemical".
Cherry-picking an example of a commercial farmer and hundreds/thousands of pounds of high-strength inorganic fertilizer plus pesticides has no relationship to the same methods of a small-scale, smart, inorganic container grower who fertilizes their container plants weekly with a diluted, low N-P-K solution. If the same farmer spread 1000 lbs. of fresh manure on his same plants, you would also have environmental repercussions. In closing... for the 100th time... inorganic ferts contain no actual chemicals. They simply supply elements N-P-K and the minors in a different form. The plants don't care what that form is, and if used the way it was intended to be used, they (like fresh manure) will present no harm to the environment.
You made an open-ended statement, not dissimilar from those you have cherry-picked to write snarky dissertations on in this thread (and others).
Seriously, RDWHAHB.
I'm sorry you find it to be snarky. I'm simply speaking the truth that certain people choose not to hear. You can make up your own minds, but choice is a wonderful thing and the facts are quite clear despite certain biases I've seen here.
These days, organic seems to be the buzzword. Organic produce, organic meat, organic skin care, organic cleaning products-it makes you wonder if companies are placing the word 'organic' before their product names as a marketing ploy rather than a health concern. In the same manner, "chemical" is also a polarizing word, but rightfully so for all the wrong reasons. I suggest not labeling all Inorganic Fertilizers as "Chemical" Fertilizers. --Fact: All inorganic fertilizers and inorganic fertilizer regimens are not created equal. There are still some fertilizers with actual chemicals in them today. But as long as you avoid using poor-name brand fertilizers unfriendly to USDA with actual chemicals, hi-salt ferts, pesticides, overfertilizing with extremely high level ferts like 40-60-30 in very strong concentrations, utilizing hormones, and other biogenetically engineered substances, AND you implement them in the correct, diluted manner, then your fine. Think of good inorganic fertilizer as a vitamin or nutritional supplement that you must take every day. There's nothing wrong with supplying a weekly, low dose of diluted 3-1-2, 6-2-4, or 9-3-6 inorganic fertilizer... especially if you're growing in containers with a potting mix like pine bark, peat, perlite, etc.
This is all made to be a big deal when it's actually not. Know the facts before you decide. The buzz surrounding the 'all-organic' idealogy as it pertains to plant growth is severely misinformed, especially on the internet.
These days, organic seems to be the buzzword. Organic produce, organic meat, organic skin care, organic cleaning products-it makes you wonder if companies are placing the word 'organic' before their product names as a marketing ploy rather than a health concern. In the same manner, "chemical" is also a polarizing word, but rightfully so for all the wrong reasons. I suggest not labeling all Inorganic Fertilizers as "Chemical" Fertilizers. --Fact: All inorganic fertilizers and inorganic fertilizer regimens are not created equal. There are still some fertilizers with actual chemicals in them today. But as long as you avoid using poor-name brand fertilizers unfriendly to USDA with actual chemicals, hi-salt ferts, pesticides, overfertilizing with extremely high level ferts like 40-60-30 in very strong concentrations, utilizing hormones, and other biogenetically engineered substances, AND you implement them in the correct, diluted manner, then your fine. Think of good inorganic fertilizer as a vitamin or nutritional supplement that you must take every day. There's nothing wrong with supplying a weekly, low dose of diluted 3-1-2, 6-2-4, or 9-3-6 inorganic fertilizer... especially if you're growing in containers with a potting mix like pine bark, peat, perlite, etc.
This is all made to be a big deal when it's actually not. Know the facts before you decide. The buzz surrounding the 'all-organic' idealogy as it pertains to plant growth is severely misinformed, especially on the internet.
My eggplant has nice girth to it, with a curve. Oh, and it's purple.
bigljd
Well-Known Member
As the Talking Heads put it, "There's a million ways to get things done/ There's a million ways to make things work out."
I only wish that this fertilizer argument happened out loud and next to my hops so they could bask in all of the carbon dioxide.
I only wish that this fertilizer argument happened out loud and next to my hops so they could bask in all of the carbon dioxide.
udt89
Well-Known Member
No offense but this thread is now useless. I
udt89
Well-Known Member
So new people, like myself, that come here can read my post and know that I read all the posts and its not worth it.
Uh, a company can't legally sell something as organic unless it meets specific USDA guidelines, so I don't know what you're talking about with companies just adding the word on.
Also, do you know what the word chemical means? All fertilizers (organic and "chemical") have chemicals in them.
I never said that companies are labeling non-organic goods as organic. I said that it was smart marketing by businesses to start the "organic" trend. We have seen this blow up in recent years. And very often, it does not matter whether something is grown organically or with artificial fertilizers... nutrients are nutrients... yet the consumer is being charged 3x the price for organic goods. I would be satisfied with pesticide free and hormone free... that is the real kicker. But as you said, everything contains some "chemicals"... even organic fertilizers. So in the very name, it is quite misleading to differentiate organic fertilizer vs. chemical fertilizer when both contain chemicals. Chemical compounds that occur in nature are not to be feared. It's like fats. Some fats are good for you, some bad. With chemicals, pesticides are bad for you, but N-P-K whether it is supplied by manure or a controlled fertilizer is not. The only exception would be those high value fertilizers like 50-50-50 that are applied in ridiculously high concentrations, which can burn plants and harm the environment.
First, the point of organics aren't, primarily, to be better for you. The point, at least the point I've heard most often, is to be easier on/better for the environment.
Second, you're misinterpreting what I was saying (Perhaps I should have explained better.) Everything is made up of chemical compounds, thus everything has chemicals. I wasn't saying it's useless to differentiate between organic and non-organic. Having read this thread, it seems like you're doing the same thing you've done in water threads, you've found one source that you've personally declared as gospel. You've then declared that source as THE facts.
It's easy to take sides when you only practice one singular method. I use organic and chemical methods depending on the circumstance. Hops in containers are not organic friendly. Hops in ground are not chemical friendly. I've explained why numerous times in this thread. If you want to turn your head to the adequate reasoning then that is fine with me.
You're apparently very full of yourself, as you seem to consider everything you say as undisputed fact.
If hops in the ground are not chemical friendly then why are most hops grown with man-made/chemical fertilizers? Also, how come people on these forums have successfully, and organically, grown hops in containers? Plus, you never seemed to respond to comments about adding fast acting organic fertilizers (re: not knowing what you're adding). In addition, in any case, a person can get a soil test done to see if they're deficient in anything.
1) I'm sorry you see it that way. I'm not here to boast; just to provide an alternate viewpoint to mainstream thought.
2) Because most hops are grown commercially in several acres and bulk growth is cheaper and easier to manage with synthethic fertilizers.
3) I responded to your comments in full, and provided evidence as to why I believe against a 100% organic idealogy for all cases, but my retorts go over your head because you're so set in your beliefs.
4) Organic ferts take time to work since the soil microbes feed the plant. In containers, soil tilth/structure and biology is much less productive than in-ground growth. A closed container structure of compacted organic manure and thick, wet compact soil is not the way to achieve a fast-growing, healthy plant with everything it needs at the exact time it requires those nutrients. So if you want to guarantee the plant is receiving everything it needs with no deficiency or overabundance, then growing your plant in a light, airy well-draining soil mixture (or no soil at all - hydro/aeroponics) with a weak solution of weekly synthetic fertilizer in containers is the way to go.
Good day. That's all I care to say on the matter to someone with such a closed mind. Continue to grow as you have been for all I care.
2) Because most hops are grown commercially in several acres and bulk growth is cheaper and easier to manage with synthethic fertilizers.
3) I responded to your comments in full, and provided evidence as to why I believe against a 100% organic idealogy for all cases, but my retorts go over your head because you're so set in your beliefs.
4) Organic ferts take time to work since the soil microbes feed the plant. In containers, soil tilth/structure and biology is much less productive than in-ground growth. A closed container structure of compacted organic manure and thick, wet compact soil is not the way to achieve a fast-growing, healthy plant with everything it needs at the exact time it requires those nutrients. So if you want to guarantee the plant is receiving everything it needs with no deficiency or overabundance, then growing your plant in a light, airy well-draining soil mixture (or no soil at all - hydro/aeroponics) with a weak solution of weekly synthetic fertilizer in containers is the way to go.
Good day. That's all I care to say on the matter to someone with such a closed mind. Continue to grow as you have been for all I care.
First, I never said there was anything wrong with chemical fertilizers. I never picked a side. So, I'm not sure how you decided I was so set in my ways. I'm simply calling you out on your statements that organically grown potted plants aren't a good idea. Someone in this thread posted pictures showing that you can definitely use organic methods to grow container plants.
1) It's funny how you display the traits I was commenting on in a post stating that you're just providing an alternative view point.
2) It's certainly cheaper to use chemical fertilizers. However, the point is that they get awesome growth in beds that are fed with chemicals. Yet, you say chemical fertilizers aren't "chemical friendly". I've not heard of organically grown hops (commercial producers produce those too) producing better yields or bigger hops. Can you provide me evidence of chemical fertilizers not being friendly to hops?
3) The primary evidence I've seen you post is from one guy's posts on gardenweb. Just like with some of the water threads, you're taking one source as gospel. Also, see above on me not being set in my beliefs.
4) You can achieve an organic soil that is light an airy, so you're misguided if you think otherwise. Also, there are organic fertilizers that are readily available that don't require breaking down (See compost tea, for example.).
That's because in all my years of gardening, it has proven to be the best advice. I've seen amazing results from following gardenwebs methods for both in-ground and container gardening. It makes absolute sense and it's not my problem you fail to see it. I suggest you read up on it some more if you want to learn. And compost teas feed the soil, not the plant. They are in no way comparable to a regular dose of weak, synthetic fertilizer with all the minors. If there is no bioculture in the soil, that compost tea is doing nothing. Try adding your compost tea to a hydroponic or aeroponic system and then get back to me with your results.
P.S - I don't see that you have listed even one source for the mindset that you believe. Not one. So don't tell me that I have to provide 3 or 4 more.
P.S - I don't see that you have listed even one source for the mindset that you believe. Not one. So don't tell me that I have to provide 3 or 4 more.
bigljd
Well-Known Member
All hail the mighty bobbrews - we are all ignorant mortals who should tremble in the presence of his greatness.
You're wasting your time trying have an intelligent conversation with bob, afrobyte. He is incapable of being wrong, and if you suggest he may be wrong, you are instantly labeled as uneducated or ignorant. He's just a troll that never goes away.
You're wasting your time trying have an intelligent conversation with bob, afrobyte. He is incapable of being wrong, and if you suggest he may be wrong, you are instantly labeled as uneducated or ignorant. He's just a troll that never goes away.
Yeah, for sure. He apparently fails to see that he continually does the same thing. He takes one source and uses it as gospel. He did something similar in a couple of water chemistry threads. I looked at the gardenweb forums. It's a wicked hive mind over there. Someone posted in the organic section asking for advice on an organic potting mix, and people were posting suggesting the same guys potting mix that uses chemical fertilizer. They apparently don't understand the point of organic gardening. It's very well possible that hops might not grow as well in organic potting mix, in a container, but that's not the point. They certainly can grow well, as people on this forum have proven. Plus, the primary point of organic gardening is to be friendly to the earth.
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