'Mash Out' - Necessary step?

bctdi said:

I always open my valve partially to avoid a stuck sparge.... Not that I ever have , but just to set the grain bed.... I may be able to go faster if I tried.

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I open it about a quarter of the way during vourlauf until it runs clear, then let it drain to the kettle at the same speed for a minute or two and then slowly and gently crank the ball-valve to full-open. Works like a charm and is pretty quick. Never had a stuck sparge on a normal mash... now, adding a few pounds of pumpkin is another story.

I don't think that we batch spargers really need to worry very much about stuck sparges. I mean worst case scenario, the valve gets shut off, you stir and vorlaugh, and do it again just a little slower. It might add 2 minutes to your day but is hardly a disaster. Thats one of the benefits we get in exchange for a little lower efficiency.

I don't mash out because there's no room in my mash tun. Hot sparge water is my approach.

And for my batch sparge runoff, I open it full bore right away and let it rip. I find that gives me a higher flow rate for longer than when I used to try to only open the valve halfway. My chemist co-brewer says it's because when you runoff more slowly, the particles have more of a chance to find the optimal fit with each other, and so end up more compressed. I dunno, but sounds logical and works in practice for me. YMMV.

I do not do a mash out, mostly because i don't have a fired MT. However, I bumped my sparge water to about 182 a year ago. My mash bed (depending on size) ends up being around 167-168F, so I have accomplished what a mash out does, for the most part, just in a different fashion. I also moved most of my mash times down to 40 minutes for most brews when I raised my sparge H2O temp, and have brewed my best beers ever this way (all my comp submitted beers were in the high 30's and low 40's).

when fly sparging and doing a mash out step, do you stir in the mash out addition water to ensure good thermal distribution to ensure the entire grain bed reaches 168? also with fly sparging you should never run the mash tun dry correct? also when doing your mash out step is it okay to add really hot water 200+ water in small quantities to get the grain bed to 168? im having trouble calculating my mash water volumes and still have enough water to sparge with and hit my boil volume, and not have to boil for forever?

tnbrewer371 said:

when fly sparging and doing a mash out step, do you stir in the mash out addition water to ensure good thermal distribution to ensure the entire grain bed reaches 168? also with fly sparging you should never run the mash tun dry correct? also when doing your mash out step is it okay to add really hot water 200+ water in small quantities to get the grain bed to 168? im having trouble calculating my mash water volumes and still have enough water to sparge with and hit my boil volume, and not have to boil for forever?

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I don't stir because I use a herms setup, so I just circulate until I reach 168-170f. On my old setup I would add near to or boiling water and throughly stir it in, no problem doing that. Beersmith works well with giving you your volumes, give it a try.

I'm an all-grain just trying to grasp this and the beersmith mash function. so, if my recipe says this:
Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body Total Grain Weight: 6.12 kg
Sparge Water: 7.44 L Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Full Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
45 min Mash In Add 15.96 L of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 6.38 L of water at 196.6 F 168.0 F

does that mean add the 16L of water, leave for 45min, then add 6.38L at 196F, and leave for 10min, then drain, and THEN add 7.44L of water (sparge) at 168F, and drain again? just trying to get all the steps right. thanks for the help

chelero said:

I'm an all-grain just trying to grasp this and the beersmith mash function. so, if my recipe says this:
Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body Total Grain Weight: 6.12 kg
Sparge Water: 7.44 L Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Full Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
45 min Mash In Add 15.96 L of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 6.38 L of water at 196.6 F 168.0 F

does that mean add the 16L of water, leave for 45min, then add 6.38L at 196F, and leave for 10min, then drain, and THEN add 7.44L of water (sparge) at 168F, and drain again? just trying to get all the steps right. thanks for the help

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You got it.

I also don't mash-out. My tun is too small, but my lautering never takes more than 5-10 min for the first runnings. I just lauter into the brew pot with a low flame, that denatures the enzymes for me. I've been able to produce all sorts of varying fermentability. That being said, I'd mash out if I had the room.

word! thanks

tnbrewer371 said:

when fly sparging and doing a mash out step, do you stir in the mash out addition water to ensure good thermal distribution to ensure the entire grain bed reaches 168? also with fly sparging you should never run the mash tun dry correct? also when doing your mash out step is it okay to add really hot water 200+ water in small quantities to get the grain bed to 168? im having trouble calculating my mash water volumes and still have enough water to sparge with and hit my boil volume, and not have to boil for forever?

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This is EXACTLY the post I was about to type.

So the consensus is that it is safe to add near boiling water to the mash and stir to get the mash to ~168* and from there recirculate to clear any small hunks, and then fly sparge with 170* water to maintain that temp until you reach your boil volume? Then just waste the remaining water from the MLT that doesn't make it to the brewpot?

---Chris

FireRescueFL said:

This is EXACTLY the post I was about to type.

So the consensus is that it is safe to add near boiling water to the mash and stir to get the mash to ~168* and from there recirculate to clear any small hunks, and then fly sparge with 170* water to maintain that temp until you reach your boil volume? Then just waste the remaining water from the MLT that doesn't make it to the brewpot?

---Chris

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Yup.

_

FireRescueFL said:

This is EXACTLY the post I was about to type.

So the consensus is that it is safe to add near boiling water to the mash and stir to get the mash to ~168* and from there recirculate to clear any small hunks, and then fly sparge with 170* water to maintain that temp until you reach your boil volume? Then just waste the remaining water from the MLT that doesn't make it to the brewpot?

---Chris

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wildwest450 said:

Yup.

_

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Too add to this. I believe the reason it is ok to add this very hot water before doing your first run off is because the ph of the mash is still low enough to suppress any tannins from leaching into your mash.

I believe on an episode of Brew Strong someone called in with a question regarding this section of "How to Brew" and JP and JZ went on to clarify that mash ph was more important than temp when talking about tannins.

It'll make lautering a little easier and it kills the enzymes so that your wort doesn't continue to get more and more fermentable.

I've done about 12 AG batches and I batch because its just easier. I use a coleman cooler to mash and gravity to collect the wort (no pumps or anything and no re-circulation). I've never done a mash out but am interested in doing so because I notice my FG is almost always a bit lower than in should be. I'm assuming from what I've read that its because the enzymes keep working when I'm collecting the first runnings. So my question is, if you wanna mash out after your 60 minute or 90 minute mash, do you just drizzle your 180F - 190F mash out water on top of the current water level and just leave it when your draining, or do you mix it in? I can't imagine you would mix the mash out water in because it can disturb the grain bed BUT if you don't mix in the hot mash out water, the hot water might not reach all the grain/sugar and make the mash more fluid and denature all the enzymes to stop sugar breakdown. How do you guys do it?

Thanks

If you just want to pour it in (batch sparge), your supposed to mix up the grain bed, the. Let it sit for another 10 minutes or so, collect your runnings u tip they are clear so the grain bed settles ( about a pitcher full) then just collect the rest in your boil kettle. That is the way I do it, works great with efficiency

Thanks RUNningonbrew. Ok, so let met just check this again. I just mash as normal (for 60 minutes or however long the recipe calls for) then add the mash out water and mix everyting up good and proper, let it sit for 10 minutes to allow the grain bed to settle and in order to denature the enzymes and liquify the sugar some more.

Then I just go on as usual, clearing the wort and settling the grain bed some more with the pitcher (thats how I usually do it). Is this right? I basically want to do batch sparging with a mash out step.

Thanks

Frikkieman said:

Thanks RUNningonbrew. Ok, so let met just check this again. I just mash as normal (for 60 minutes or however long the recipe calls for) then add the mash out water and mix everyting up good and proper, let it sit for 10 minutes to allow the grain bed to settle and in order to denature the enzymes and liquify the sugar some more.

Then I just go on as usual, clearing the wort and settling the grain bed some more with the pitcher (thats how I usually do it). Is this right? I basically want to do batch sparging with a mash out step.

Thanks

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Once you fine tune this process calculate your actual efficiency and adjust your recipe to hit your OG.

Frikkieman said:

I can't imagine you would mix the mash out water in because it can disturb the grain bed BUT if you don't mix in the hot mash out water, the hot water might not reach all the grain/sugar and make the mash more fluid and denature all the enzymes to stop sugar breakdown. How do you guys do it?

Thanks

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I don't believe the grain bed can be disturbed at this point in the process because it hasn't been "set". Draining your grains is what "sets" the bed, and you don't do that until after mash-out.

I batch sparge with a mash-out, and I usually wait 5-10 minutes after mash-out, but I'm waiting for the heat to fully diffuse more than anything to happen with the grain.

At least that's my understanding.

Frikkieman said:

Thanks RUNningonbrew. Ok, so let met just check this again. I just mash as normal (for 60 minutes or however long the recipe calls for) then add the mash out water and mix everyting up good and proper, let it sit for 10 minutes to allow the grain bed to settle and in order to denature the enzymes and liquify the sugar some more.

Then I just go on as usual, clearing the wort and settling the grain bed some more with the pitcher (thats how I usually do it). Is this right? I basically want to do batch sparging with a mash out step.

Thanks

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Correct, you got it

Thanks a bunch guys, your responses really cleared some things up. I always read comments from people who mash out but use fly-sparging technique to sparge after mash-out. It's good to read replies from brewers who mash out and batch sparge, like I want to do. I'm looking forward to my next brew and will most certainly be mashing out

Thanks