Battle against airlock activity!

Yes, another thread asking for opinions about lack of airlock activity and yes I have heard from many here that the activity can not always be trusted. But in my case, I'm pretty sure my yeast is dormant or dead, do you doubt? So, to the facts:
- This is a strong amber ale with OG of 1.072, 3 gal glass carboy with a tight cap and airlock, so I doubt it is leaking. I really do!
- I used re-hydrated Safale S-04, which have always been very robust on starting fermentation in the first 6-12 hours after using it 6-7 times before. This yeast is hot, no need for starters whatsoever, trust me.
- It has passed 24 hours and nothing! No activity and worse: no krausen!
- The only potential problem unrelated to yeast quality I can think of is temperature. The room is stable at 63F and there is no way I can keep it higher than that for long periods at this time of the year. 63F, though, is within the range of the yeast (lower is 59 according to manufacturer). I have used the same yeast before at stable room temp of 66F with no problems.

So, I'm thinking my yeast is probably dead and waiting longer won't do any good. If it was just slower than usual activity, at least a little bit of krausen should have formed despite of absent airlock activity.

I will take an OG reading tonight to make sure it's stuck, but almost positive it is just by the looks of the wort... I know it...

Should I re-pitch a second package? Aeration first or no aeration at all? Is the temperature the issue here?

So basically, despite all the threads about airlocks,, the sticky like this, Fermentation can take 24 to 72 hrs to show visible signs, all the times new brewers have come on saying EXACTLY the same thing, and when we tell them to wait 72 hours, and take a reading, and they do and it is fine, despite the 99.9% rate of that being the EXACT case...The daily discussion about this where the new brewer then comes back and says "heh, heh, yeah I was wrong the beer is fine...." The discussions about how even krausens aren't a good read of what is going on. How not to compare one fermentation with another....The fact that s-04 is some of the the best damn yeast in the world...all these things.

Yet, you somehow are sure that your situation is terminally unique, eh?

And you think we're going to tell you something other than, rdwhahb and wait 72 hours, take a reading and pitch if you are right, but more than likely you are wrong and gonna come back and say 'oops' you guys were right'?"

*shrug*

I'd probably dump. I'm about to throw out a word no brewer wants to hear. That word is INFECTION!!!!










I would probably wait a little longer and then take an OG reading.

Shooter said:

That word is INFECTION!!!!

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A YEAST infection that is...

(I was just image/googling looking for a funny yeast infection sign....there are none....you DON'T want to google image yeast infections....)

Revvy said:

So basically, despite all the threads about airlocks,, the sticky like this, Fermentation can take 24 to 72 hrs to show visible signs, all the times new brewers have come on saying EXACTLY the same thing, and when we tell them to wait 72 hours, and take a reading, and they do and it is fine, despite the 99.9% rate of that being the EXACT case...The daily discussion about this where the new brewer then comes back and says "heh, heh, yeah I was wrong the beer is fine...." The discussions about how even krausens aren't a good read of what is going on. How not to compare one fermentation with another....The fact that s-04 is some of the the best damn yeast in the world...all these things.

Yet, you somehow are sure that your situation is terminally unique, eh?

And you think we're going to tell you something other than, rdwhahb and wait 72 hours, take a reading and pitch if you are right, but more than likely you are wrong and gonna come back and say 'oops' you guys were right'?"

*shrug*

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Well, the problem is... 72 hours is going to be on Friday night and I will be gone until Monday night. If I'm correct, and I think I am, despite of your sarcasm (a good one though, don't take me wrong), Monday night (144 hours or 6 freaking days) will be way too late!

Not even a tiniest sign of a krausen with S-04 after 24 hours in such a strong beer? Get out here… I bet I got a packet of dead yeast. I got this one right revvy, trust me!

I got this one right revvy, trust me!

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1) If you got right, then you wouldn't need to ask.

2) There isn't any rush. If you're beer is safe and sound under an airlock, then waiting six days to repitch isn't going to be too late for anything except impatience.

I would give it at least 48, and if you can't wait until Monday, repitching isn't going to hurt anything.

I'm surprised that with a gravity of 1.072 you didn't use a starter.

Keep us posted, i'd like to see the final verdict.

Indyking said:

Not even a tiniest sign of a krausen with S-04 after 24 hours in such a strong beer? Get out here… I bet I got a packet of dead yeast. I got this one right revvy, trust me!

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I'm betting that revvy's right. Nothing ruins homebrew faster than worrying too much about it.

Check the packet's date. I've never had S-04 be dead unless it was 3+ years old. Then I throw it in the boil for nutrient!

Hmmmm. There have been a few posts lately about long lag times for s-04. Buy another pack and if there's still nothing on Friday morning add it. Worst thing that can happen is an overpitch.

manoaction said:

1) If you got right, then you wouldn't need to ask.

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FTW!!!!!

Just pitch another packet, what's the worst that could happen as a result?

ksbrain said:

Just pitch another packet, what's the worst that could happen as a result?

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He could do that. I wouldn't necessarily aerate again without checking the gravity. We could be talking about a finished beer at this point. Who knows?

ksbrain said:

Just pitch another packet, what's the worst that could happen as a result?

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Well one could argues since it's dry yeast that that is WAAAAY overpitching. Plus it would help him to learn to trust the yeast more if he got proved wrong. And he would be less apt to worry (and start a thread like this next time.) Once the yeast comes through for you you tend to doubt less. And enjoy the hobby more.

Plus it would help him to learn to trust the yeast more if he got proved wrong.

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Hear, hear... A brew day that didn't teach you anything or didn't at least remind you of a truth isn't much of a day.

Revvy said:

FTW!!!!!

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You're not following me... What I asked (go back and check please) was what should I do in this case of probably inactive yeast... When is the best time for pitching.... Should a re-oxygenate or not... Should I try a different yeast, etc... To me it's very suggestive I don't have fermentation but I will wait till Sunday night when I'm back in town to check. I can careless about airlock activity but no wort is ever fermented without producing at least a little bit of krausen. My wort surface right now after more than 24h look flat with not even a tiniest bit of krausen. One thing I know for sure... It is not contaminated either. Back to your comment about using a starter for this such big beer, well, relembre that this is a 3 gal batch. The S-04 is recommended for hp to 7 gal of regular beers (og around 1.040-1.050), so I should have plenty of yeast cells in my rather small batch to do the job.

If it appears it hasn't done anything then take a gravity sample before doing anything else. I think your pitching rate is fine. However, you are only 24+ hours in. I think you said you are leaving on Friday. If you still don't think it has done anything at that point, take a gravity reading to be sure and then pitch more yeast if you want, but, the thing you have to understand is, it's hard to tell you what to do if we don't really know the state of the wort beyond your observation. I'm certainly not going to tell you to go ahead and pitch more yeast and aerate it to death without knowing the gravity. That could easily result in you telling us that, upon bottling/kegging the beer you tasted it and noticed it's really oxidized. Why? Because you aerated a fully fermented beer before taking a gravity reading. Remember, we're here to help!

Now, let's get this beer fermenting!

These are the times I'm glad I just lurk

I'm pretty sure I pitched right around the same time as you, but S-05. Temps about the same.

About 24 hours in, nothing. I'll be gone Friday until monday.

I was already planning to go get yeast tomorrow afternoon if nothing was showing.

25 hours in, there be foam where there was none before.

HBT, I lurk you feverishly, and though I may still be working on my efficiency, my patience has come miles. Cheers, people!

I just bottled an IPA tonight that I thought was stuck. It barely bubbled lightly for less than a day and I just let it sit. Sure enough when I took a gravity reading today it was right where it should be at 1.010.

Airlock activity is a piss poor excuse for a fermentation indicator.

Shooter said:

If it appears it hasn't done anything then take a gravity sample before doing anything else. I think your pitching rate is fine. However, you are only 24+ hours in. I think you said you are leaving on Friday. If you still don't think it has done anything at that point, take a gravity reading to be sure and then pitch more yeast if you want, but, the thing you have to understand is, it's hard to tell you what to do if we don't really know the state of the wort beyond your observation. I'm certainly not going to tell you to go ahead and pitch more yeast and aerate it to death without knowing the gravity. That could easily result in you telling us that, upon bottling/kegging the beer you tasted it and noticed it's really oxidized. Why? Because you aerated a fully fermented beer before taking a gravity reading. Remember, we're here to help!

Now, let's get this beer fermenting!

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I understand and appreciate your guys help. There was now a tiny bit of clear foam on the top, which I interpreted as a weak or early krausen. Awfully late based on my experience with S-04 but better than nothing. I may be able to check it again later today before leaving town, then take a SG on Sunday night, that is, if I come home and don't find the wort fermenting like crazy! In my experience with glass carboys and S-04, I don't need look at the airlock at all to confirm fermentation.... The wort itself always showed motion and a good thick krausen was always present. I'll keep you all posted!

You see foam where there was no foam before? Congratulations! You have fermentation. Enjoy your weekend.

hal2814 said:

You see foam where there was no foam before? Congratulations! You have fermentation. Enjoy your weekend.

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Yep, it is just a tiny bit, probably 10% or less of what I have observed before with this yeast much earlier in the process. So, obviously, I have a slower yeast than I was used to, the question is, will it be able to carry on full fermentation? I think not, but oxygenating the wort if I decide to re-pitch on Sunday or Monday is out of question now. By Sunday, when I take the read (5 days later), I expect most of fementation done, if not, say if the OG is near half way through, then I think I will have to pitch another pack, but I hope I can avoid that.

Oxygenating the wort, even if you have the SLIGHTEST amount of fermentation is a bad idea. And if you have a krausen, no matter how big YOU think it SHOULD be, then you have fermentation.....

And again you STILL won't take a gravity reading, NOW. It would tell you what you have going on...

But krausen is Krausen, how many times do we need to tell you, it doesn't matter how big your krausen, if you have any it means you have fermentation.

You seem so set that this yeast is bad....when it's not...but you won't take a reading right now and prove it to yourself.

There really is no "slow" or "fast" fermentation (unless you're temps are high and the yeast are going gangbusters) there just is fermentation. If you have krausen you have fermentation, regardless of the fact that it took 3 hours to form to it's largest size or 30....It really doesn't matter one bit.

The amount of krausen can vary for whatever reason, it can come quick and depart quickly or it can linger long after fermentation is complete, and it all be normal.

There is nothing "typical" in brewing...every fermentation is different, and should not be used to compare one with another...you can't do that.

No two fermentations are ever exactly the same.

When we are dealing with living creatures, there is a wild card factor in play..Just like with other animals, including humans...No two behave the same.

You can split a batch in half put them in 2 identical carboys, and pitch equal amounts of yeast from the same starter...and have them act completely differently...for some reason on a subatomic level...think about it...yeasties are small...1 degree difference in temp to us, could be a 50 degree difference to them...one fermenter can be a couple degrees warmer because it's closer to a vent all the way across the room and the yeasties take off...

Someone, Grinder I think posted a pic once of 2 carboys touching each other, and one one of the carboys the krausen had formed only on the side that touched the other carboy...probably reacting to the heat of the first fermentation....but it was like symbiotic or something...

With living micro-organisms there is always a wildcard factor in play...and yet the yeast rarely lets us down. So it is best just to rdwhahb and trust that they know to what they are doing. It sounds like you are brewing by a calendar, or instructions and not by what your beer is really doing, the problem is that yeast don't know how to read so they seldom follow their scripts. They dance to their own tune and its seldom 4 x 4 Time.

Don't assume the worst with the yeast, realize that they've been making beer since long before our great great great grandfather copped his first buzz from a 40 of mickey's out back of the highschool, so they are the experts.

Yeasts are like teenagers, swmbos, and humans in general, they have their own individual way of doing things.

And worrying because it's not happening how fast or slow you think it should be is really not worth the energy.

It may not be what you expected it to be but that doesn't mean anything's wrong.

Revvy said:

Oxygenating the wort, even if you have the SLIGHTEST amount of fermentation is a bad idea. And if you have a krausen, no matter how big YOU think it SHOULD be, then you have fermentation.....

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Yep, agree with the oxygenation piece, but there is a reason why people make starters sometimes or pitch more than 1 packet of yeast. You’ve got to have the minimum number of viable yeast cells to do the job completely otherwise fermentation will be incomplete. Otherwise people would not have to worry about starters at all as it would be just a matter of wait longer, which is not true! I think that is what may be happening with mine, but like I said, I think it is too early to draw any conclusions. By Sunday night, when I’m back, the SG reading will give me a pretty good idea.

There really is no "slow" or "fast" fermentation (unless you're temps are high and the yeast are going gangbusters) there just is fermentation.

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In the very packet of Safale S-04, the words "fast fermentation" is printed under the characteristics of the yeast... I wonder what the scientists who made the decision of putting that information in the label, probably backed up for years of research and experience, would think of this statement...

You can split a batch in half put them in 2 identical carboys, and pitch equal amounts of yeast from the same starter...and have them act completely differently...

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Did you see the previous edition of the brew magazine where they made several experiments with Irish Moss? Your statement here pretty much implies that their whole work was hopeless...

And again in the time it took you to reply to me, you could have taken a gravity reading and REALLY know what the heck is going on.

*shrug*

You wanna believe there's something wrong, but you don't want to KNOW that something could be right.....

Indyking said:

Yep, agree with the oxygenation piece, but there is a reason why people make starters sometimes or pitch more than 1 packet of yeast. You’ve got to have the minimum number of viable yeast cells to do the job completely otherwise fermentation will be incomplete. Otherwise people would not have to worry about starters at all as it would be just a matter of wait longer, which is not true! I think that is what may be happening with mine, but like I said, I think it is too early to draw any conclusions. By Sunday night, when I’m back, the SG reading will give me a pretty good idea.



In the very packet of Safale S-04, the words "fast fermentation" is printed under the characteristics of the yeast... I wonder what the scientists who made the decision of putting that information in the label, probably backed up for years of research and experience, would think of this statement...



Did you see the previous edition of the brew magazine where they made several experiments with Irish Moss? Your statement here pretty much implies that their whole work was hopeless...

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I have to leave for work, so I'll be brief and mean here, and helpful and friendly when I get back.

1.) Yeast will propagate in the wort whether you make a starter or not. It is a matter of wait time and flavor characteristics, not how complete the fermentation is going to be. That has more to do with yeast vitality than their numbers.

2.) Scientists don't put the labels on there, the marketing people do. Directions, instructions and descriptions on most homebrewing products are sub-optimal.

I'll post back later with my thoughts on your specific issue on the OP, since my experience differs somewhat from Revvy's (although he is correct, I am just not as hands-off as he is.)

It's entirely possible that the packet of yeast was damaged somehow, and that not as many cells were viable to start propagation.

Or, the temp is such that it is taking longer for them to reproduce and get started fermenting.

Either way, fermentation has started, and as it ramps up your cell count will multiply many many times. Eventually it will ferment out as completely as the food supply will allow. Once the yeast have started reproducing, as long as the conditions remain adequate for them to continue reproducing, they will ferment that wort completely.

And even though there was a "bit" of lag in this case, I'd rather ferment low and slow, than hot and hard for almost every style. I think you are golden and will appreciate the circumstances once the beer has conditioned.

This is exactly why I brew via the fire and forget method. Pitch, set the temps, walk away, come back when it is time to keg and drink. I do my job and let the yeasties do theirs.

Sounds like it's started. I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point. While they do have their downfalls, this is one reason I'm glad I started fermenting in buckets from the beginning. Once I pop that lid on, I can't see much of anything going on in there and just have to have faith!!!

just wondering why OP doesn't want to take a gravity reading?

-=Jason=-

Revvy said:

And again in the time it took you to reply to me, you could have taken a gravity reading and REALLY know what the heck is going on.

*shrug*

You wanna believe there's something wrong, but you don't want to KNOW that something could be right.....

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Flomaster said:

just wondering why OP doesn't want to take a gravity reading?

-=Jason=-

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I was going to take the SG this morning but then I noticed the very small krausen beginning to form on the top, so what the point of taking it right now is? I chose to rather give it some more time to see how much it will progress and take a more meaningful reading before I draw conclusions about the need for re-pitching or not.

Indyking said:

I was going to take the SG this morning but then I noticed the very small krausen beginning to form on the top, so what the point of taking it right now is? I chose to rather give it some more time to see how much it will progress and take a more meaningful reading before I draw conclusions about the need for re-pitching or not.

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ArcaneXor said:

I have to leave for work, so I'll be brief and mean here, and helpful and friendly when I get back.

1.) Yeast will propagate in the wort whether you make a starter or not. It is a matter of wait time and flavor characteristics, not how complete the fermentation is going to be. That has more to do with yeast vitality than their numbers.

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Please do show me the reference for yeast starters being used as a main tool to improve flavor... never heard of such a thing but could be wrong...

Here is what John Palmer says briefly about starters: "Using a starter gives yeast a head start and increases the population preventing weak fermentations due to under-pitching."

Ref: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

I'm pretty sure a "weak fermentation" will result in incomplete attenuation.

2.) Scientists don't put the labels on there, the marketing people do. Directions, instructions and descriptions on most homebrewing products are sub-optimal.

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No, strongly disagree. The marketing use the information provided by the scientists, otherwise why spends any money with research & development at all? As an analogy, when you buy a drug and read the adverse effects sections, marketing people have no idea how those effects were discovered. There is often years of research behind it. Marketing just help to leverage the use of the most important scientific observations to be made available to the public in order to make the final product as appealing as possible.

According to Dave Miller's book, underpitching may not leave enough yeast to clean up the acetaldehyde and diacetyl they create during fermentation. I don't have a link but you're more than welcome to peruse the book. It's in my downstairs bathroom. So in that sense, yes a starter would improve flavor.

As far as attenuation, all beers have incomplete attenuation. It's just a matter of how incomplete. It might be less than typcial for S04, but it'll be good enough.

Near as I can tell, you've already decided you're going to repitch despite the advice you asked for and received so go ahead. It won't hurt anything. It's your beer and your money. And to be fair, you did underpitch in the first place for a 1.07 OG beer.

Indyking said:

Please do show me the reference for yeast starters being used as a main tool to improve flavor... never heard of such a thing but could be wrong...

Here is what John Palmer says briefly about starters: "Using a starter gives yeast a head start and increases the population preventing weak fermentations due to under-pitching."

Ref: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

I'm pretty sure a "weak fermentation" will result in incomplete attenuation.




No, strongly disagree. The marketing use the information provided by the scientists, otherwise why spends any money with research & development at all? As an analogy, when you buy a drug and read the adverse effects sections, marketing people have no idea how those effects were discovered. There is often years of research behind it. Marketing just help to leverage the use of the most important scientific observations to be made available to the public in order to make the final product as appealing as possible.

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Here's a couple of links about pitching rates and off flavors.

http://seanterrill.com/2010/05/09/yeast-pitching-rate-results/

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices

You can also just ask Wyeast:

How Does Pitch Rate Affect My Beer?

Pitch rates make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.
A low pitch rate can lead to:

* Excess levels of diacetyl
* Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
* Increase in ester formation
* Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
* High terminal gravities
* Stuck fermentations
* Increased risk of infection

High pitch rates can lead to:

* Very low ester production
* Very fast fermentations
* Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
* Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm

Indyking said:

Y . . . . what should I do in this case of probably inactive yeast... When is the best time for pitching.... Should a re-oxygenate or not... Should I try a different yeast, etc... . . . . My wort surface right now after more than 24h look flat with not even a tiniest bit of krausen. . . . . . .

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24hrs is way to early to be asking any of these questions, fermentation is affected by numerous factors, some of them are out of our control, such as: barometric pressure, moon phase, vibrations (from wind, machinery, etc) and probably a host of other influences too numerous to track.

It's way past RDWHAHB time here.

hal2814 said:

According to Dave Miller's book, underpitching may not leave enough yeast to clean up the acetaldehyde and diacetyl they create during fermentation. I don't have a link but you're more than welcome to peruse the book. It's in my downstairs bathroom. So in that sense, yes a starter would improve flavor.

As far as attenuation, all beers have incomplete attenuation. It's just a matter of how incomplete. It might be less than typcial for S04, but it'll be good enough.

Near as I can tell, you've already decided you're going to repitch despite the advice you asked for and received so go ahead. It won't hurt anything. It's your beer and your money. And to be fair, you did underpitch in the first place for a 1.07 OG beer.

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No, you probably did not read all my posts before... I said (go back and check please), fermentation should be near done by Sunday night, then I will take a SG read, and decide about repitching or not... But I also said I hope I dont have to do that...

Krausen is growing a bit bigger now... Though not quite good yet and airlock dead, I think it will eventually be fine... I may just RDWHHB after all... But this was a good discussion! Thanks!

Looks to me like worrying is the only problem here.

Yeast are unpredictable. There is more going on than the few factors you are considering. Hell, I regularly have significantly different lag times in the same batch of beer when I split a 10-gal batch in 2 primaries. They are the same wort, at the same temp, oxygenated to the same extent, and have the same yeast from the same starter or rehydrated dry yeast. As far as I can tell, they are identical.

But they must not be. Why do the lag times differ? I'll probably never know, but the beer from the two primaries tastes the same. When I am relaxing, not worrying, and having a homebrew in my homebrewery, I encourage the yeasts in the fermenters. Getting impatient with them or letting them know how upset you are may discourage them and ruin the beer.

If you were them, would you like to read this thread?

I'm sure Revvy isn't keeping score but it looks like +1 for RDWHAHB! Good Call!

Indyking said:

No, strongly disagree. The marketing use the information provided by the scientists, otherwise why spends any money with research & development at all? As an analogy, when you buy a drug and read the adverse effects sections, marketing people have no idea how those effects were discovered. There is often years of research behind it. Marketing just help to leverage the use of the most important scientific observations to be made available to the public in order to make the final product as appealing as possible.

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so... all those ads that claim to make your penis bigger are actually true? I mean they all say scientist backed right?

Look at it this way, can you numerically represent "fast" for me?

Don't think anyone would buy a yeast that claimed "We ferment just like the other brand, sometimes."

Using the exact same yeast in a very similar OG wort, one batch kicked off with visible activity in under 12 hours. This second batch was pitched on Tuesday, and I didn't see any "visible" signs of activity until this morning. Every packet of yeast is different, every batch of wort is different.

I haven't been brewing for a month yet and I've seen it happen. Who cares what you see, or how many or few bubbles you see? You don't know what's going on in the wort/beer until you put a hydrometer in it. So, do that, or just leave it alone.