mash hops and steeping hops

what is the difference between mash hops and steeping hops? I have a recipe that calls for both. The mash hops are to be placed with the grain and steep at 150F for 30 min. The steeping hops are not mentioned anywhere else in the recipe. When do I use the steeping hops? I would have thought I use them when I am steeping but that's just me.

My guess is that the steeping hops would be added at flameout, at least that's how I would interpret it in an all-grain recipe.

Baron von BeeGee said:

My guess is that the steeping hops would be added at flameout, at least that's how I would interpret it in an all-grain recipe.

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That would make sense because in the recipe, the steeping hops are listed after the 60 min hops and before the secondary hops. This is an grain-extract recipe (if that matters).

I'd vote for flameout, also. Haven't seen the term, but calling it a 0 min. add seems like a good guess. My problem with 0 min. adds: how long they are in the wort and at what temperature depends on the cooling methods.

I would think you would get terrible extraction from the mash hops. Is 150 even hot enough to release much oil? Not to mention there would be no mechanical action from the boil to break the lupone (sp) glands.
Granted, there is no mechanical action for the steeping hops (added at 0 min) either, but the mash hop flavor oils would be all boiled away, leaving maybe only a small amount of bittering. Seems like it would be sharp. Hmmm...

chillHayze said:

I would think you would get terrible extraction from the mash hops. Is 150 even hot enough to release much oil? Not to mention there would be no mechanical action from the boil to break the lupone (sp) glands.
Granted, there is no mechanical action for the steeping hops (added at 0 min) either, but the mash hop flavor oils would be all boiled away, leaving maybe only a small amount of bittering. Seems like it would be sharp. Hmmm...

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You've got some research to do, chilly! Do some searches on Mash Hops and First Wort Hops. Frankly, the mechanics are not well understood, but having the hops at those temps prior to boiling does seem to release extra aroma and flavor without adding much bitterness. The bitterness is a smoother, more subdued bitterness, as well, according to reports. FWH seem to be equivalent to a 20 minute addition.

I just tried the method on my IPA, so I'll have a report imminently!

Yes, that was speculation on my part, which is why I didn't give any discrete answers, but rather posed questions. i shall have to try it myself!

So mash hops = FWH? I thought mash hops to be in the mash (or steep) and FWH to be added to the kettle with the first runnings.

chillHayze said:

I thought mash hops to be in the mash (or steep) and FWH to be added to the kettle with the first runnings.

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That's correct, FWH and mash hops are different. BvBG did both on his last brew to try to confuse us.

Chairman Cheyco said:

That's correct, FWH and mash hops are different. BvBG did both on his last brew to try to confuse us.

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I confused myself! The first samples of the beer are outstanding IMO. My very subjective observation was that the mash hops really didn't have much effect (at least in terms of aroma and flavor of the wort). The FWH seemed to have a significant aroma when the wort hit them and as they steeped. While this beer is bitter, it is a very smooth, muted kind of bitterness.