Orange Vanilla Wheat

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scottland

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Ok, I'm very new to brewing, and could use a little help here forumlating a recipe.

There is a microbrew here in Phoenix called Papago brewery that makes a brew called Orange Blossom. It's a sweet wheat beer with very noticeable orange and vanilla flavors.

I'd love to make something similar to this, but I'm not sure about the vanilla and orange.

I read someone suggested brewing a light wheat beer, and adding a cup of vanilla and mandarin orange Torani syrup. That didn't sound like a good idea with all the extra sugar from the Torani, so I figured I would post the question here.

The beer is definitely sweeter than your average wheat, so maybe the syrup isnt' a bad idea. If I were to add in Torani, when would be the right time? At Flameout, in the secondary, right at bottling?
 
The sugars in the Torani will be fermented by the yeast and will not leave any residual sweetness (unless it contains unfermentable sugars). Perhaps you could add some light crystal malt to give you some sweetness?

For the orange flavor I would go with freshly zested orange peel late in the boil (and/or in secondary). Not knowing the beer, I'd start with an ounce and then add from there.

Vanilla can be added in whole bean form in the secondary. Actually, I'd soak both the vanilla bean and orange zest in some vodka for a couple of days and then dump the whole thing into the secondary.
 
Are you suggesting to soak the peel and vanilla in vodka to essentially sanitize them?

I used about 1.5oz of bitter orange peel in a wheat I just did that fermented at about 73degrees. The peel went straight into the primary for about 2.5 weeks. The beer has a noticeable tart beginning which I think is kind of odd.
 
Are you suggesting to soak the peel and vanilla in vodka to essentially sanitize them?

Basically, yes. If you want to retain as much flavor and aroma from pretty much any flavorful/aromatic ingredient, your best bet is to add it post fermentation - otherwise the flavor and aroma compounds will be scrubbed out of the beer by the CO2 produced during fermentation. However, if you're going to add things post-fermentation you should sanitize them first or risk contamination - especially when dealing with fruits and other food items that are probably covered in millions, if not billions, of bacteria, wild yeast, and fungi.

When you added your bitter orange peel - did you peel it yourself? If so, did you include the white pith layer? If so, that is likely where your bitterness is coming from - the pith is remarkably bitter, while the outer zest is not.
 
Ok cool, So take a good lighter wheat receipe, use a little more light crystal in the grain bill, and add orange zest and vanilla bean (infused in vodka) in the secondary? Is that ounce of orange zest by weight?

The brew is definitely quite different. It has a light wheat taste up front with a syrupy orange and vanilla (dreamsicle) like finish.
 
No, the peel I added was from a little bag I bought at the local home brew store. From my memory, there's not a ton of pith on it. I was thinking that because I put it in the primary versus the boil, that's where the greater tartness was coming from. I brewed this same beer a year ago with the same recipe but threw the orange peel into the boil and got very little tartness out of it.
 
Ok cool, So take a good lighter wheat receipe, use a little more light crystal in the grain bill, and add orange zest and vanilla bean (infused in vodka) in the secondary? Is that ounce of orange zest by weight?

The brew is definitely quite different. It has a light wheat taste up front with a syrupy orange and vanilla (dreamsicle) like finish.

That's what I would do, though I'm not sure this will get you syrupy orange and vanilla - must admit, syrupy is not a characteristic I tend to think of nor want in my beers. Yes, the 1 oz is by weight (it's will be more than you think).

No, the peel I added was from a little bag I bought at the local home brew store. From my memory, there's not a ton of pith on it. I was thinking that because I put it in the primary versus the boil, that's where the greater tartness was coming from. I brewed this same beer a year ago with the same recipe but threw the orange peel into the boil and got very little tartness out of it.

Not sure what the issue is. I would think boiling just about anything would extract more bitterness than not boiling it. Boiling would have volatilized more of the essential oils, but those impart the orange flavor and aroma, not tartness. Perhaps there was a difference in the batches of orange peel itself (?)
 
I'd put some orange zest in the boil, then taste it after primary and if it needs more, I'd add more in secondary with the vanilla bean. Not the only way to do it, but that's probably what I'd do.
 
Syrupy was a bad word. It's definitely sweeter than the typical orange-hinted wheat beer, though. Thanks for the help guys, I think i've got the right idea on my hands now. Assuming it turns out worthwhile, I'll post the recipe in a couple months.
 
Don't know if you feel like giving away your 'secrets', but what is the recipe you are using? It might help people give you better recomendations....
 
Oh, it's not a secret, I just haven't picked a wheat recipe to follow yet. I was going to search through some recipe databases and give something a shot.
 
I tried doing an extract dreamsicle-like beer a while ago using sweet and bitter orange peel, 3 sliced mandarin oranges, orange extract, and 2 whole vanilla beans. I can barely notice any of them are in there. If I made it again I would do this: make sure to scrape the insides of the beans then cut them into quarters. I would also freeze or crush the oranges. I might also think of adding some lactose to give it the sweetness. All these are added in secondary. Let me know how it turns out!
 
Hibbleton: I think that's gonna be the tricky part with this one, getting the right balance, the beer i'm trying to clone, the dreamsicle isn't overpowering, but it's definitely there at the finish.

I'll definitely report back here. It's going to be another 7 days before my primary is free, so I'll post what I ended up doing here in around 7-10 days.
 
Ok, I tried the first beer from this batch. It turned out good!!. I went light on the orange zest, and used about .5 oz of vanilla extract. The flavors are not over powering at all, just barely there, but still taste quite nice. I post the reciepe i used in a bit. It's definitely not identical to the commercial version, but I like it a lot.
 
I've been working on a clone brew of this too, and just for the hell of it I thought I'd email Papago to see if they would give me any info. Ron (their head guy) was nice enough to respond back with this:

The extract we are using is highly concentrated and wouldn't be practical for homebrewing as you would probably only need about one ml. per 5 gallons, so I would look at using sugar free torani syrups instead which is what we originally used. I would get the mandarin orange and vanilla. Be sure and get the sugar free ones. Some costco's sell it as well as restaurant supply places and some coffee shops. For 5 gallons I would start out with about 3 oz. of each in the beer, you can add it in the secondary when the beer is finished out, then you can add more to taste if you need to.

So it sounds like the Torani is right on the money. I'm not real sure about the sugar free stuff- it has sucralose (splenda) in it, which is not going to ferment at all. Maybe that is needed to actually get a bit more sweetness into the beer, which I've heard of people doing with ciders. I'm tempted to just get the regular torani syrup, and then if it needs the sweetness, add sucralose later to taste. I'm a bit afraid of it getting TOO sweet with the sugar free stuff. Ironic, no?

From an interview with brew-monkey.com I also found out they use about 60% wheat, and do a step mash up to about 160.

http://www.brew-monkey.com/articles/interview.php?id=10
 
Ok,
I'm finally working on my 2nd batch of this stuff, My first receipe was:

4.5# Wheat
3.5# 2-row
0.5# Munich
1# Flaked Wheat
0.5# Rice HUlls
1oz Cascade hops (1/2 at 60min, 1/2 at knockout)
Wyeast 1056
I soaked some orange zest in 0.5oz of vanilla extract and added at bottling.

It turned out to be a very nice wheat beer, that everyone loved, but it wasn't close to a clone of the Papago Orange blossom. So I'm changing the receipe a bit. MacBruver, you're dead on with the Torani, I think that's the ticket, so my next batch I'm doing this:

Same Grain bill, but I'm gonna use Wyeast 2112 (Cali Common). It's a hybrid lager yeast that can be fermented up to 65*. I think it will give that smoothness that my first clone was missing.

The second change is the Torani. I was able to find Sugar free French vanilla, but it doesn't look like Torani makes sugar free mandarian orange. So I'm use the regular mandarian orange, and cut back on the corn sugar i use for conditioning.

So 3oz Torani Sugar Free Vanilla and 3oz Torani Mandarian Orange at bottling

3oz Torani should replace 2oz of corn sugar for conditioning.

I'll be brewing this in about a month, so we'll have to see how it turns out.
 
Mine came out pretty good... not nearly enough orange/vanilla flavor though compared to the original. I had already bought the non-sugar-free syrups, and I think the bit of fermentation that happened knocked out some of the flavor. Almost 5oz of each syrup was all but undetectable in the final product.

That didn't matter though, the keg of it blew in about an hour and a half at a party with about 30 people. Everyone was drinking it up!
 
I'm brewing this up this weekend, and still wasn't sure which yeast to use, so I emailed Papago:

It is a clean fermenting ale yeast

Sound like I'll be using Chico for this, and ferment on the low side (62*). I also picked up Sugar Free Vanilla Torani and Mandarin Orange. My final recipe for this weekend is:

4.5# Wheat
3.5# 2-row
0.5# Munich
1# Flaked Wheat
0.5# Rice HUlls
1oz Cascade hops (1/2 at 60min, 1/2 at knockout)
SafeAle 05, Fermented @ 62*
3oz Torani SF Vanilla/3oz Torani Mandarin Orange at bottling (possible more, i'll add to taste.)

I mixed equal amounts of the Torani syrups last night to taste, and the flavor is DEAD on, so as long as I add enough, I think i'll have it this time. Their beer is also filtered (kristallweizen), so I'm going to add gelatin before I bottle).
 
I brewed this on Saturday. I got 70% efficiency, which is dead on for my LHBS crush. 1.045 going into the fermenter at 5.5gal. I set the temp controller to 62*, and the US-05 took off within 3 hours.

So I got home today and the krausen had already fell, which I thought was really quick, especially at 62* I took a sample, 1.012 after only 2.5 days. Wow. I checked the temp of the sample, 64*. It tastes VERY clean so far, so it should be a fantastic base for the Torani bomb that is coming soon. I'll probably cold crash and gelatin this after only 10days, so I'll have results soon
 
Ok, I cold crashed this, didn't gelatin though. Then at bottling I added 6oz Torani mandarin orange and 10oz sugar free vanilla. I accounted for the sugar in the Torani orange with less corn sugar at bottling. It turned out PERFECT. I can't tell the difference between mine and Papagos. I was worried the preservative in the Torani would impact bottle conditioning so I didn't gelatin. The orange blossom from Papago is definitely clear i.e. kristalweizen. Once I start kegging which is soon, I'll brew a batch and use finings for clarity
 
I'll re-visit this one last time. 8oz each Torani was too much. But not by alot. Some of my bottles got less Torani than others. The ones that got less tasted perfect, the ones that got more were too sweet.

Now that I keg, I kegged a batch last night and added 4oz each. It's definitely too little. I'm going to add 2 more oz each and see where i'm at. I think 6oz each Mandarin orange(now called tangerine) and vanilla is about the sweet spot for this brew.
 
I'll re-visit this one last time. 8oz each Torani was too much. But not by alot. Some of my bottles got less Torani than others. The ones that got less tasted perfect, the ones that got more were too sweet.

Now that I keg, I kegged a batch last night and added 4oz each. It's definitely too little. I'm going to add 2 more oz each and see where i'm at. I think 6oz each Mandarin orange(now called tangerine) and vanilla is about the sweet spot for this brew.

Just to be sure, the Torani was added just before bottling? As well, How does this play on dextrose for bottle conditioning? How much less did you use (Discounted the exact count of how much sugar was in the 6oz of Orange you used)?

Love the vanilla-orange weizen idea...looking to make my own. My local Costco carries the product so I'll be sure to make this my next batch
 
The batched I brewed a month ago turned out well, but not perfect. It's definitely a tricky to work with the torani.

The Sugar Free Torani will impart sweetness and flavor, but won't be fermentable, so no worries there, but the Tangerine Torani isn't available in sugar free. It definitely will ferment, and it's kind of a guessing game when bottle conditioning.

If you are bottling this, I would substitute the sugar free orange torani instead. I wouldn't want to risk bottle bombs with the full sugar torani. 4-6oz ea (8-12oz total) seems about right in terms of flavor.
 
Does anyone have an idea of how to convert this to an extract brew? This is my wife's all-time favorite beer and I don't have the all-grain setup to do it. It would be very much appreciated.
 
You can do it two ways.

A. Leave out the Flaked Wheat, and steep 0.5# of Munich at 152* or so for 30min, then add 6.5# of wheat malt extract.

B. The harder way is a partial mash. Use 1# of 2-row, and the 0.5# of Munich and 1# of flaked wheat, and steep that in a grain bag at 152* for 45min. Then add 5# of Malt extact.

The numbers i'm giving are for liquid malt extract. You'll need 5# of DME for the A. beer, or 4# of DME for the B. beer.

Either would get you pretty close to the all grain bill above. The hard part with this brew is the Torani. At this point, I'd say definitely use sugar free toranis. Definitely. Get the Vanilla and the Orange. I'd say about 4-6oz per bottle so 8-12oz of total torani.
 
The hard part with this brew is the Torani. At this point, I'd say definitely use sugar free toranis. Definitely. Get the Vanilla and the Orange. I'd say about 4-6oz per bottle so 8-12oz of total torani.

Are you saying 8-12oz total for the 5gallon batch?
 
Are you saying 8-12oz total for the 5gallon batch?

Ya, 1 cup to a cup and a quarter was about right for me. That was with the sugar free stuff. I tried the sugared stuff, and it was too tough to estimate how much sugar was in it.

I would say add it to taste. You'll most likely end up between 4-8oz of EACH the vanilla and the orange for a total of 8-16oz.

I'm talking fluid ounces by the way. Aka, between 1 and 2 cups total.
 
I know this is an old thread but in searching, it came up and I am also trying to build an "orange creamsicle" type of beer. My question is, what will happen if I use the regular Torani orange and vanilla instead of the sugar free? That's what I have as didn't see this info before ordering. Should I add it before fermentation and if so, will I still get the creamsicle effect?
 
It ferments out, and leaves less of the flavor behind. You really need to get the sugar free ones, or it doesn't work.
 
It's not as critical if you keg, but you'd be surprised. If you can find the sugar free, get it. If not, go with the sugar version (use tangerine instead of orange), and keg.
 
gonna do this one this weekend perhaps... Would I find those Torani in the local grocery? Also, those liquids are secondary correct?
 
I'm about to try something similar using guava and orange syrups. The orange syrup is sugar free, but the guava syrup isn't.
  • I'm assuming that I need to boil the syrups with the corn sugar and water at bottling for sanitation purposes. Is that correct?
  • What proportions should I use? I'd like the guava and orange flavor to be palpable. This is my first homebrew, so I'm not sure how viscous the corn sugar mix should be, etc.
 
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