You Know What Really Grinds My Gears? [Recipe Edition]

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And Gila, you are right on. There are plenty of styles where the guidelines overlap and the distinctions are subtle.

I had a 36 point APA from last year. A brewery up the street from me was having an IPA contest. I put about 0.4 more oz. of hops into my APA and voila, it turned into an IPA by BJCP standards. It scored a 28 in that contest by the way. The 0.4 extra ounces through the whole thing out of balance and kinda screwed it up. Only now, about 6 weeks later is the hop character mellowing out enough that it tastes more like the good, original APA recipe.

Anyway, I'm not talking about these categories where the definitions are more like a spectrum of the same ingredients. I'm talking about the monikers for styles that have strict definitions. There aren't that many of them, but you simply can't declare anything you want to be a lager, or a kolsch, or a hefeweizen, or a lambic/sour, or a fruit beer, or a smoked beer, or a mead, or a cider, or an oktoberfest. All of these styles have at least one characteristic that defines the style, and if you DON'T have that characteristic, you DON'T have that style, PERIOD. There's no shade of gray when it comes to whether you used a sour yeast in a sour beer. No sour/wild yeast, no sour beer! There's no shade of gray when it comes to whether you smoked one of your ingredients to make a smoked beer. No smoke, no smoke beer! No fruit, no fruit beer! No Kolsch yeast, no Kolsch beer! No lager yeast, no lager! No lager yeast, no Oktoberfest (this one is fun around the end of the summer, when EVERYONE's beer seems to be an Oktoberfest....with ale yeast!).

I'm done.....you can't squeeze blood out of a brick.
 
Hefewiezen literally means "yeast wheat," not "yeast with wheat." That would be Hefe mit Weizen. I can do this all day long!

Still, it is STRICTLY defined in German brewing that a Hefeweizen MUST contain AT LEAST 50% wheat. Not ABOUT 50%, not AROUND 50%, not ALMOST 50%.....AT LEAST 50%. Does no one care what "AT LEAST 50%" means. If it contains LESS than 50%, it is a Weissbeir or another style. If your beer has 30% wheat, you can call it ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT, but you CAN NOT call it a Hefewiezen because it just doesn't fit the requirements.

Porters have no REQUIREMENTS of what hops to use, so there is more gray/wiggle room there, and your example is a bad example.

My only arguement here is that when the beer style has STRICT style requirements, you simply have to meet those requirements if you want to claim that style. For the countless styles that have vague parameters and no true requirements, there is certainly much more wiggle room! When all else fails, make up your own new style.

I'm not here making up the definitions, just enforcing them!

Sincerely,

TopherM - Captain of the Style Police

Perhaps you should patrol the likes of Horst Dornbusch;

"Depending on the preferred color of your Weissbier, you can use a single pale malt for the barley portion of the mash or a mixture of several barley malts of different colors. Common barley malt additions for weissbier include Pils, Vienna, Carafoam®, Carahell® and Cara-munich®."

As he in his expertise spits in teh face of your guidelines that strictly require wheat and pils.

And you should patrol Schneider breweries too since;

"... but the modern Schneider Weisse Original relies on a straightforward infusion..."

as your strict "guidelines" only suggest decoction mash to get it there.

:rolleyes:

Like I said man, they are guides, not laws.
 
And Gila, you are right on. There are plenty of styles where the guidelines overlap and the distinctions are subtle.

I had a 36 point APA from last year. A brewery up the street from me was having an IPA contest. I put about 0.4 more oz. of hops into my APA and voila, it turned into an IPA by BJCP standards. It scored a 28 in that contest by the way. The 0.4 extra ounces through the whole thing out of balance and kinda screwed it up. Only now, about 6 weeks later is the hop character mellowing out enough that it tastes more like the good, original APA recipe.

Anyway, I'm not talking about these categories where the definitions are more like a spectrum of the same ingredients. I'm talking about the monikers for styles that have strict definitions. There aren't that many of them, but you simply can't declare anything you want to be a lager, or a kolsch, or a hefeweizen, or a lambic/sour, or a fruit beer, or a smoked beer, or a mead, or a cider, or an oktoberfest. All of these styles have at least one characteristic that defines the style, and if you DON'T have that characteristic, you DON'T have that style, PERIOD. There's no shade of gray when it comes to whether you used a sour yeast in a sour beer. No sour/wild yeast, no sour beer! There's no shade of gray when it comes to whether you smoked one of your ingredients to make a smoked beer. No smoke, no smoke beer! No fruit, no fruit beer! No Kolsch yeast, no Kolsch beer! No lager yeast, no lager! No lager yeast, no Oktoberfest (this one is fun around the end of the summer, when EVERYONE's beer seems to be an Oktoberfest....with ale yeast!).

I'm done.....you can't squeeze blood out of a brick.

I completely agree that a beer must have at least 50% wheat to be called wheat. Never argued against that.

But I reject your reality to assume you cannot lager an ale. Go to any chain that pimps their "39* drafts" and you will quickly be shown that you can. (This should not be construed to mean you should drink it that cold, just that it was in fact lagered)
 
Just add the suffix -ish to any style name to loosely broaden the definition of the style. This increases the odds of being right on the internet.

Porter-ish

Golden Ale-ish

etc.
 
There is a thin line if you really want to get techinal.

But I would call all of these IPAs... You could even make a case that they're all American IPAs.

7.6%, 65 IBUs, WLP001, US malts, Mixed US/Brit hops, 2nd-ary addition of lightly toasted oak chips, Brit dryhop
6.6%, 75 IBUs, WLP002, Brit malts, US hops, 2nd-ary addition of frozen raspberries, no dryhop
5.6%, 55 IBUs, WLP029, German and US malts, American hops, no 2nd-ary, German and US dryhop

I would say that they are only "strongly hopped ales" with no specific category (oak chips in an AIPA?? Mixing of hop nations??).

Are you just making recipe's up now? ;)
 
All of those could actually work and pass as IPAs... not that I would brew 2 out of 3 of them :)
 
Just add the suffix -ish to any style name to loosely broaden the definition of the style. This increases the odds of being right on the internet.

Porter-ish

Golden Ale-ish

I like it! Case closed. PROST!
 
Just add the suffix -ish to any style name to loosely broaden the definition of the style. This increases the odds of being right on the internet.

Porter-ish

Golden Ale-ish

etc.

Even the likes of Ray Daniels has proven that you do not have to brew within the STRICT lines of the guides to win competitions for category.
 
I think the best is yet to come. Brewers who push the boundaries to create something amazing via a new brewing process or new ingredients versus doing the same old routine as everyone else. Edit: And no, I'm not talking about Dogfish Head :)

The world can benefit from thinking outside the box a bit.
 
All of those could actually work and pass as IPAs... not that I would brew 2 out of 3 of them :)

You also said you would make the case that they were AIPA's. They aren't traditional IPA's though to "BJCP style guidelines". Especially with the mixing of grain/hop nations. I think that's one of the reason's that BJCP doesn't require a recipe when you submit.

Not that I really care, I brew what I like to drink no matter the "style". I try to fit some but sometimes I just don't care :)

Also, Sam's Latitude 48 isn't exactly to style but has hops from the "hop latitude" across the world.
 
What style is this beer? "Imperial Red Flanders Ale" isn't a style according to beer judges. It might not fare well in a competition, but they manage to get people to pay $18 a bottle for the stuff.

de-proef-terrapin-monstre-rouge-imperial-flanders-red-ale.jpg


It's interesting to try. It's a blend of Flanders red ale and American IPA.
 
You also said you would make the case that they were AIPA's. They aren't traditional IPA's though to "BJCP style guidelines". Especially with the mixing of grain/hop nations.

I said that "you" (meaning some people) could even make the case that they were even American IPAs.

My feeling however is that if they all taste and smell closer to the typical American IPA (vs. European) then that's what you should call them.
 
I think the best is yet to come. Brewers who push the boundaries to create something amazing (or perhaps utilize a new process) versus doing the same old routine as everyone else.

The world can benefit from thinking outside the box a bit.

I think many are just stymied by it all because most all of it has already been done.
 
Yeah, well most people just like to structure things up in a tight little box and put a stamp on it. It makes them feel like they have more control I guess. I believe in organization to some extent. But I don't always think we should all get hung up on every little detail because that can breed closed-mindedness and an inability to move forward. Categorizing a beer by it's style isn't as simple as classifying a grown person as a man or a woman. An experienced brewer could probably fool a BJCP judge by writing American IPA with all the appropriate specs on paper, but serving him or her something that's just outside 4 out of 7 of the written guidelines. I wouldn't lose sleep over it either way.
 
You're so right. Makes you wonder how the judges can make distinctions across some odd the styles.
 
You're so right. Makes you wonder how the judges can make distinctions across some odd the styles.

I have no idea how anyone can accurately judge a beer when they are sampling many beers and trying to judge them all.

I need to drink at least 12oz of the same beer before I can pass judgement. If the next beer is a different style, the first beer is altering my perception of the second beer. Sometimes for better. Sometimes for worse.

How do they do it in competitions? Does one judge sample only one style or do they take a swig of an IPA and then try to judge a sour?
 
I have no idea how anyone can accurately judge a beer when they are sampling many beers and trying to judge them all.

I need to drink at least 12oz of the same beer before I can pass judgement. If the next beer is a different style, the first beer is altering my perception of the second beer. Sometimes for better. Sometimes for worse.

How do they do it in competitions? Does one judge sample only one style or do they take a swig of an IPA and then try to judge a sour?

This has always been my bane toward competition. Judges comment on color, yet use no accurate method of comparison at teh judging table. They comment on bitterness yet have no absolute way to determine actual IBU, or water composition. It's all subjective.
 
This has always been my bane toward competition. Judges comment on color, yet use no accurate method of comparison at teh judging table. They comment on bitterness yet have no absolute way to determine actual IBU, or water composition. It's all subjective.

I imagined it was like that. I don't see myself ever entering a competition anyway.
 
Black IPA makes my head hurt. If you want you can call it IBA but you cannot have a beer that is black and still be a pale ale. I don't care about the strict standards from other countries since I don't brew in those countries. But it is a contradiction to have a black IPA.
 
Black IPA makes my head hurt. If you want you can call it IBA but you cannot have a beer that is black and still be a pale ale. I don't care about the strict standards from other countries since I don't brew in those countries. But it is a contradiction to have a black IPA.

I concur!
 
This has always been my bane toward competition. Judges comment on color, yet use no accurate method of comparison at teh judging table. They comment on bitterness yet have no absolute way to determine actual IBU, or water composition. It's all subjective.

They actually make little reference cards for judging color, and I have an app on my phone with a SRM reference.

BJCP judges don't judge IBUs or water composition, so I'm not sure where this criticism comes from. Beers are judged based on the qualitative descriptions in the style guidelines, not the numbers, and water composition has never entered into it except in terms of how the beer is supposed to smell or taste according to those guidelines.


I'm not saying the process is infallible. In fact, it is quite subjective and far from perfect. But to say that it is useless because judges don't know exactly how many IBUs are in a beer they're tasting is ridiculous.
 
JonM said:
My coconut raspberry chocolate smoked bacon blueberry Earl Grey coffee pecan marinara and watermelon wheat. Whaddya think?

Haha yes! I was going to say that too. It is hard to find a home brewed porter or stout that has just ONE extra flavor. I do a forehead smack at the vanilla-java-chocolate-cherry-oatmeal stouts.
 
TopherM said:
Also, anyone who follows my posts know my biggest recipe pet peeve is when people call their beer something like a Hefeweizen even through it doesn't have enough or any wheat and doesn't use noble hops, or a Kolsch when it isn't made with Kolsch yeast, or a Lager when they ferment it at ale temps.

I hate to be mean but there was a post where someone was brewing a lager with ale yeast at ale temps. Wow, way to invent the pale ale buddy.
 
It really grinds my gears when a thread about what grinds my gears turns into a thread about disagreeing about if something should or should not grind your gears. It grinds my gears even more that I enjoyed reading it.
 
They actually make little reference cards for judging color, and I have an app on my phone with a SRM reference.

BJCP judges don't judge IBUs or water composition, so I'm not sure where this criticism comes from. Beers are judged based on the qualitative descriptions in the style guidelines, not the numbers, and water composition has never entered into it except in terms of how the beer is supposed to smell or taste according to those guidelines.


I'm not saying the process is infallible. In fact, it is quite subjective and far from perfect. But to say that it is useless because judges don't know exactly how many IBUs are in a beer they're tasting is ridiculous.

Read it again. I said judges rate on bitterness with no reference to IBU or water composition. It's a very well known fact t6hat water chemistry can signifigantly effect apparent bitterness.

As for the reference cards, sure they are "available" but, really, how many actually use them? I've been a steward to several comps and have never seen anyone use a reference. Yet, they make comment to color.
 
too many different types of hops. There is still a science to hop additions, and it certainly is not more is better. I hate these guys that think their iipa is a groundbreaking new invention just because they use 35 different hops. Unless you are using a new hop, it's pretty much all been done, and there is a reason that most good recipes are fairly simple!

Also, anyone who follows my posts know my biggest recipe pet peeve is when people call their beer something like a hefeweizen even through it doesn't have enough or any wheat and doesn't use noble hops, or a kolsch when it isn't made with kolsch yeast, or a lager when they ferment it at ale temps.

I hate the "i can call it anything i want" arguements i get into with these guys. It's like me calling my apa an imperial flemish cream stout. Can i call it that? I guess...first amendment rights and all. Is it that? No! There are definitions and standards for a reason!

+1
 
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