efficiency issues

All of a sudden I am having efficiency issues. I am not sure what the exact numbers are but my last 2 brews I have missed my expected OG. The first one buy 8-10 points and the one tonight by 6-8 points. I have a new brew sculpture and burners BUT I am using the same mill...mash tun...brew kettle everything. The ONLY thing I have done differently is I may be short changing the sparge a little time wise. I am batch sparging and haven't let it set very long after adding the sparge water and stirring it up, actually just a couple of minutes....could that be the issue?

Have you checked your thermometer?

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nanofreak said:

Have you checked your thermometer?

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Yes

I have also fought the effiency fight. My last several batches have been mid seventies so I feel good. But there were times when I could barely get into the 60's. That said I think it is a time for you to get back to basics. Make sure you hit your temperatures and times. Personally I find that 155 on the mash is better than 150. I also mash for longer then the often perscribed 1 hour. When I sparge I try to be sure the grain bed temperature get to just a little less than 170F. Lastly I love MO for my base grain. Good luck, Mike

Hitting mash out temp for the sparge is good advice. Check your grain mill to see if the gap has changed. Also, I know most people will disagree with this, but try lowering the flow rate when you lauter and sparge. I get better eff when I drain slowly even though I batch sparge.

Thanks for the advice.....The thing is I have changed nothing that could cause it.. no idea what is happening.

Use iodine, and make sure you are hitting full conversion before sparging.

BBL_Brewer said:

I get better eff when I drain slowly even though I batch sparge.

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Me too, in a round cooler with false bottom

MikeinCT said:

Personally I find that 155 on the mash is better than 150.

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I'm a little unclear on this point, as it depends on the style of beer you're brewing.

OHIOSTEVE said:

The ONLY thing I have done differently is I may be short changing the sparge a little time wise. I am batch sparging and haven't let it set very long after adding the sparge water and stirring it up, actually just a couple of minutes....could that be the issue?

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If this is the only thing you note as being different, I would focus on this step.

When I add my sparge water for a batch sparge I stir up well enough to break up the clumps then hold the mash at 155-160 degrees for 20 min. Almost doing a second short mash. This helps up efficiency by quite a bit.

Mash Temps vary for style. We mash for 90 minutes, We also add 1/3 pound of two row to the 5 gal batch for insurance and adjust the final volume to get the correct OG. We have never missed and normally have a little extra wort, We normally shoot for 16 gallon batches but as we have improved, we are getting 17 on a regular basis. The extra grain is pennies.

We started HERMS and we saw an immediate improvement in efficiency as well as very clear wort.

Sparge time should not mater, just good temperature. You are only washing out the sugars, not extracting them. Have you changed the sparge temp or volume?

We originally add the extra grain because we had more pennies than time. Our Motto:

Fly Sparging is for Flys"

I am doing everything exactly the same other than the sparge time and I agree with you that at that point I am just rinsing the grains. That is why I speeded up that process. I generally heat my strike water ( 1.25 qts per pound of grain) to a few degrees above what I need. I put it in my mash tun and stir it until it drops to correct temp then add the grains and stir it up really well. I cover it and let it set for a half hour ( one hour mash) open it up and stir the crap out of it again. After an hour I vorlouf and drain to the brew kettle. I take the remaining water volume and divide it in half and batch sparge twice. Water temp 170-175 degrees. I have never actually calculated my efficiency, but when I use recipes from off of here I always hit the numbers and they are posted as around 75%....

You changed burners (and kettles?). Is you boil off the same as before? Maybe you are keeping more water then before?

HangLoose said:

You changed burners (and kettles?). Is you boil off the same as before? Maybe you are keeping more water then before?

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nope, adjusted for boil off. was 1.5 gallons...now it is right at 2 gallons. I added a half gallon of water to the total volume...I shouldn't hve to adjust the grain bill for that should I?

Steve rather than divide the sparge water into two separate batches I do it in one. Dump all in at 165 degrees, stir for a minute or two (careful not to foam it up) to break up any clumps, cover, let stand another 20 minutes, vorlauf until clear(for me it is usually a gallon or so), then drain to boil pot.

Toga said:

Steve rather than divide the sparge water into two separate batches I do it in one. Dump all in at 165 degrees, stir for a minute or two (careful not to foam it up) to break up any clumps, cover, let stand another 20 minutes, vorlauf until clear(for me it is usually a gallon or so), then drain to boil pot.

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I was doing that when I first started all grain...found for some reason the split gave me better efficiency.

oakbarn said:

Sparge time should not mater, just good temperature. You are only washing out the sugars, not extracting them.

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The amount of time spent stirring the sparge water after each addition is important since that's what diffuses the sugar into the water. If you're spending less time on that step, it sounds like your sparge efficiency has gone down and is lowering your overall efficiency.

OHIOSTEVE said:

nope, adjusted for boil off. was 1.5 gallons...now it is right at 2 gallons. I added a half gallon of water to the total volume...I shouldn't hve to adjust the grain bill for that should I?

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If you add more water, without adjusting the total grain, that will change your og. You will have more runoff with the same potential extract. Still seems like a volume issue. You hit your post boil volume?

tgmartin000 said:

If you add more water, without adjusting the total grain, that will change your og. You will have more runoff with the same potential extract. Still seems like a volume issue. You hit your post boil volume?

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but if I am boiling down to the same volume would it matter ? I am not arguing just trying to figure it out.

Is your gravity high or low?

Either way, I think yes. Your pre boil gravity will be lower with more water. You may end up with the same amount of wort, but you started with more. Gravity is dependent on both starting and ending volume.

tgmartin000 said:

Is your gravity high or low?

Either way, I think yes. Your pre boil gravity will be lower with more water. You may end up with the same amount of wort, but you started with more. Gravity is dependent on both starting and ending volume.

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Yes, but as long as you hit your post boil volume it wouldn't make a difference.

Ok just did a brew...waited ten minutes on each sparge....drained painfully slow on the mash and first sparge....efficiency up over 75% ( I THINK) right back where it was...8.5 lbs 2 row and .5 lbs crystal 10....a hair over 5 gallons in the fermentor 1.050

My quick calculation says that 77% which is great....Mike

Also you should finish around 1.010 and that will yield about 5% beer. I also like to have beer at least 5%. So nice going...Mike

i batch sparge in two equal doses of roughly my batch size. It takes me nearly 45 minutes from start to finish, but my wort is boiling as i finish. I have been hitting about 80% Eff.

First couple batches i let er rip......done sparging in 10 minutes....effeciency high 50's low 60's.....

77% is not shabby. Well done.

Your change (shorter sparge time) is exactly the culprit. The more you let the grain sit in the sparge water the more sugars are extracted and diffused in to that water.

Just a simple example: I BIAB and used to mash for 90 mins, no sparge, & I consistently got around 83% efficiency. Then I changed to a 60min mash, no sparge, & I now get 76% efficiency. Time makes a huge difference in the extraction process.

wyzazz said:

Your change (shorter sparge time) is exactly the culprit. The more you let the grain sit in the sparge water the more sugars are extracted and diffused in to that water.

Just a simple example: I BIAB and used to mash for 90 mins, no sparge, & I consistently got around 83% efficiency. Then I changed to a 60min mash, no sparge, & I now get 76% efficiency. Time makes a huge difference in the extraction process.

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Hmmm....I've always heard that you're not "extracting" anything during the sparge. You're just rinsing the extracted sugars from the grain. Doesn't the sparge temp stop the extraction?

Otherwise, yes, from what I've heard, time can affect the mash. But, I used to mash for 90 minutes, and got about 90% mash efficiency. I recently switched to 60 minute mashes, and on my last batch still got 89% eff. With a single batch sparge, 15 minute sparge rest.

tgmartin000 said:

Hmmm....I've always heard that you're not "extracting" anything during the sparge. You're just rinsing the extracted sugars from the grain. Doesn't the sparge temp stop the extraction?

Otherwise, yes, from what I've heard, time can affect the mash. But, I used to mash for 90 minutes, and got about 90% mash efficiency. I recently switched to 60 minute mashes, and on my last batch still got 89% eff. With a single batch sparge, 15 minute sparge rest.

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Temperature stops enzymatic conversion, not extraction. Change that sparge rest to 2-3 minutes and see how that affects the gravity of your 2nd runnings. You'll be surprised at how much difference there is.