Brewing with Wormwood

ScottT said:

Dude, are you really that naive? It sounds like, that with the history of Alcoholism in your family tree, you shouldn't be drinking yourself.

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The friend is obviously not blood related, nor is the father-in-law. The uncle married into the family by wedding my mother's half-sister, and the two cousins I spoke of are his children. You have no idea what you are talking about.

ScottT said:

Especially since your consumption of alcohol is severe enough to be likened to the effects of Ice and Meths.

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Huh? Where did that come from? We haven't discussed anything about my cosumption of alcohol.

More to the point, what does this have to do with the legality of substances? Remember, that's what we are discussing here.

This is my last post on the issue. An attempt at a philisophical debate on the legality of various substances and personal freedoms has turned to personal attacks, and I'm not going to participate.

-walker

Needless to say, I do not believe that alcohol or any other substance is inherently bad. Some people do have a bad attitude about it, which is why education is so important. If people knew the damage that can be caused by "Ice and Meths," we wouldn't have so many social issues with it.
I for one do know and have seen the terrible effects that Meth can have on a person and a family. It's a horrible drug. However, just making it illegal, dumping it in the same category as marijuana, does nothing. Then, if you do get caught, you go to prison, where you learn how to make it, come into contact with a wide assortment of other dirty poisons, and come out ready to start cooking and selling. That's not helpful to anyone.
The bottom line is that we do have a drug epidemic in this country. We have to realize that in order to solve this problem we're going to have to do more than just make them illegal, because when you arrest someone for smoking a joint in thier own house you send a message that the government is not trying to help.
Furthermore, all this arguing amongst ourselves isn't getting anyone anywhere either. Everybody would like to see the drug epidemic go away. Recreational drug use isn't bad, but being an idiot about a substance that can kill you (alcohol is included here), not paying attention to the consequences, and letting yourself become sucked into a culture of dying, these things are bad, and education can stop it.

I think most of the problem with illegal drugs is there is so much profit to be made. As with Prohibition, people like Al Capone amassed fortunes on manufacturing, importing and selling it.

As much as I am opposed to illegal drugs, there has been a war going on against them for more than a century....... and the war is being lost. Legalizing and taxing them might just be the answer. If the high profits weren't there, perhaps people would stop growing and manufacturing. If legalized there would probably be a year or so where all hell would break loose. All I am saying is like Prohibition, the stand against drugs is not working and maybe a different approach is needed.

Prohibition spawned the home brew industry. Most people brewed beer and wine limited to their own use, essentially harmless. Those brewing and distilling for profit were lured by the money. And that brought about associated criminal activities. The lesson learned was that making something illegal did not make it go away.

for the record - i've started my first wormwood ale .. and from the taste before fermentation i think there is great potential - keep in mind i like a lot of hops too so just a bit of the super bitter wormwood i think i the key ... 1/2 oz 60 min boil in 5 gal of wort ... more to come...

quite the far ranging thread... quickly and succinctly answering the question of the original thread.... wormwood is a common bittering agent for gruit ales. gruit, for those who don't know, is unhopped beer.

for what it's worth, midwest also sells mugwort, heather, juniper, and sweet gale-- all common ingredients for gruit ales. since i havent seen these anywhere but midwest, my guess is that they're trying to cater to those experimenting with gruit ales, and aren't including the wormwood for any narcotic side effects.

jeysiin said:

quite the far ranging thread... quickly and succinctly answering the question of the original thread.... wormwood is a common bittering agent for gruit ales. gruit, for those who don't know, is unhopped beer.

for what it's worth, midwest also sells mugwort, heather, juniper, and sweet gale-- all common ingredients for gruit ales. since i havent seen these anywhere but midwest, my guess is that they're trying to cater to those experimenting with gruit ales, and aren't including the wormwood for any narcotic side effects.

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I've seen all of these at The Grape and Granary also. And I've seen at least some of these ingredients at my small LHBS.
Wormwood can be used as a bittering and flavoring agent in beer/gruit. From what I have researched on the topic it will have minimal if any medical effects and the taste is usually described as extremely bitter and not pleasant. If my other gruit attempts are decent I may try some wormwood in the beer just to experiment. We will have to see.

Craig

I brewed up some Absinthe a couple of weeks ago. I would NEVER put wormwood in beer. It had such a horrible taste to it. You are better off just spending the ten dollars on the Absinthe kit and trying it. You will be gone for a few hours though. So plan ahead.

What is legal versus illegal doesn't make a lot of sense in the USA, unless of course you follow the money, then it makes a lot of sense.

Here is a break down of the addictiveness of common drugs. Note how alcohol and nicotine are much more addictive then many other horrible drugs.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1331125

It is pretty easy for most people that are a bit 'experienced' to understand that some of our legal drugs (nicotine, alcohol, various prescription medications, etc..) are insanely more harmful then our illegal drugs. But it all boils down to money anyway....

CBBaron said:

Wormwood can be used as a bittering and flavoring agent in beer/gruit. From what I have researched on the topic it will have minimal if any medical effects and the taste is usually described as extremely bitter and not pleasant.
Craig

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Everything I have read suggests that it is used in very small doses as a bittering agent. along the lines of half an ounce for 30 minutes for a five gallon batch.

random side note, since it seems this thread is good for that... what were the recipes for the grui ales you've made, CBBaron?

jeysiin said:

Everything I have read suggests that it is used in very small doses as a bittering agent. along the lines of half an ounce for 30 minutes for a five gallon batch.

random side note, since it seems this thread is good for that... what were the recipes for the grui ales you've made, CBBaron?

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Plan to make you mean.
Because I'm not sure how they will turn out, I am planning on making a six gallon wort and splitting it into two 3gal batches to boil.

I'm starting with the grain bill and yeast selection from a scottish ale I just brewed.
8# Maris Otter
1# Crystal 40
8oz Honey malt
8oz munich malt
4oz crystal 120
3oz chocolate
US-05 yeast

Then in the 3gal of gruit I intend to add:
1oz mugwort at 60min
2gram sweet gale at 15min
1oz dried elderflowers at flameout.

The second 3gal I plan to be more of a heather ale. Current plans are for:
.25oz of 5% hops (I have Glacier available) at 60min for bittering.
2oz heather tips at 60min
2oz heather tips at flameout


Craig

I have a friend who just joined my unit and before he joined the navy he said he tried every drug out there besides Heroin. I was talking about wormwood because I am now growing my own and he said about 15 years ago he bought the stuff to make some. He said he took 8 ounces of wormwood and let it steep in 2 liters of 151 for 2 days. He said everclear would work too or vodka but stuff over 40% works better. He then filtered it and tasted it, then to make it taste better he distilled it. After distilling he said he added some flavoring stuff and filtered it again. He said since he distilled it he had no idea what abv it was but he said it was much less bitter than most the absinthe he had. He said when he closed his eyes, the world still looked like a fading van gogh painting and all kinds of other trippy stuff. Now keep in mind how much he used compared to most kits. http://www.greendevil.com/absinthe.html <---my local homebrew store carries a kit has 1.2 ounces of wormwood for 2 liters of absinthe and it is 70-90mg/L Thujone which is 7-9 times the legal european amount) So yes it will work, but even the strongest stuff you can buy from the czech republic isn't as strong as homemade stuff, and at 70+ percent alcohol you better be feeling something soon or you'll just make yourself pass out.

ScottT said:

Damn! I'll make time later this evening but right now consiter this. Water can kill you to if you breath it. Does that make it a poision? Eating too much fat can kill you long term, does that make it a poison? Lets see, sachrine causes cancer, does that make it a poison? I can go on and on.

None of these are the same as smoking crack or ice or shooting heroine.

Remember who's paying to the non-contributing portion of society. You and I are. More later.

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With Toxin being equivalent to poisin then yes, anything being overindulged does equate to being poisin. Even Oxygen!

druids_keep said:

for the record - i've started my first wormwood ale .. and from the taste before fermentation i think there is great potential - keep in mind i like a lot of hops too so just a bit of the super bitter wormwood i think i the key ... 1/2 oz 60 min boil in 5 gal of wort ... more to come...

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hey let me know how this goes....I would love to make it.....


Does any one know if you have to boil the wormwood in the wort or could you dry hop it? Maybe dureing secondary or something.

A few observations: wormwood can be used in beer. If you have ever had New Belgium Springboard you have had a beer brewed with wormwood. It is known to have medicinal properties as well as some mystical properties as well.

Alcohol is considered a drug. We are all homebrewers here, we are all in the business of making drugs, illegal or not. Just because your drug of choice HAPPENS to be a legal one doesn't mean that those that choose a different drug sould not be able to use their drug of choice. Its a matter of choice, people should be allowed to choose.

wormwood can add flavor to beer, but mostly its a very strong bittering agent stronger than hops i think although its a different kind of bitterness. Im not going to weigh in on the psychoactive effects or lack thereof except to say all the scientific tests about this are published online.
I have a wormwood bittered beer bottle conditioning right now, at bottling my impression was a strong bitterness that was less crisp and maybe slightly medicinal tasting compared to a normal hop bittered beer, but this beer has some molasses in it and that may contribute to it.
The recipe was something like:
1 gallon
second runnings from oatmeal stout
added molassess forgot how much
boiled 60m with wormwood
15m corriander cardomom and licorice root
its just a crazy experiment ill see how it tastes in a few weeks.

wormwood is used in the spring board. i just had some for the first time today and it was great. as for absinthe i have had like 4 differnt kinds or so ranging from 10mg thoujone to 100mg thoujone per bottle and i never felt anything more than drunk. its a very strong liquor and wormwood is a very strong herb. if you use it use it very sparingly. i made a wormwood ale with almost 3oz of wormwood and it tasted like ****. i poured all of it out in the yard.

I just heard on the news today the truth about the hallucinogenic properties of Absinthe...

It's the much higher alcohol content. The report I heard says that they have completely debunked the theory that it's the wormwood. They used drops left over from bottles that were consumed a couple hundred years ago. I wish I had paid more attention to the story but I had fatherly duties to attend to. I distinctly heard though that it wasn't the Thujome in the wormwood but was definitely the alcohol content.

devaspawn said:

I just heard on the news today the truth about the hallucinogenic properties of Absinthe...

It's the much higher alcohol content. The report I heard says that they have completely debunked the theory that it's the wormwood. They used drops left over from bottles that were consumed a couple hundred years ago. I wish I had paid more attention to the story but I had fatherly duties to attend to. I distinctly heard though that it wasn't the Thujome in the wormwood but was definitely the alcohol content.

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You listened to the Buzz report too, eh?

Hagen said:

You listened to the Buzz report too, eh?

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Michael Elston only tells the truth!

It's funny though...If he's not reporting on death, destruction, scary, and depressing things he's reporting on something drug related...

Very weird...

Surprise, Absinthe is now legal again, my roommate just bought a bottle. i don't know if every where has it, but in AZ it is now legal again. for about the last 7 months its been legal. hhhmmmm, i'm still not trying it lol

I suspect that your roommate is getting the americanized version of absynthe. I believe if you look on the bottle you will see nothing about thujome. It's still illegal in this country. Sorry...

devaspawn said:

I suspect that your roommate is getting the americanized version of absynthe. I believe if you look on the bottle you will see nothing about thujome. It's still illegal in this country. Sorry...

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Sorry buddy but you are misinformed.....fist of all it's Thujone.....Thujone isn't illegal it's regulated to a certain amount...if you buy a bottle Lucid it just so happens that you can look on the bottle and see something about Thujone. Oh yeah you can get Lucid at bevmo......in 2007 the FDA started to regulate Thujone more as a poison and not as a drug. They advise against ingestion which is why they regulate it.

Well I stand corrected on two counts it would seem...an 'n' instead of an 'm' and apparently Lucid does have the slightest hint of thujone in it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/business/yourmoney/29goods.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

It's still illegal to sell or produce full thujone strength absinthe in this country but you can get a weakened version called "lucid." I'd still rather get the real deal from a place like Green Fairy, though.

Real wormwood is one of those plants that was used "in olden times" and should be used only with extreme caution. If you're curious about using herbs in brewing, I'd strongly recommend that you get a copy of the Handbook of Injurious and Poisonous Plants. Wormwood is listed. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0387312684/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20.

The most active ingredients in wormwood are thujones and they are toxic to the central nervous system. They're called wormwood because they have traditionally been used to kill intestinal parasites. In case you don't know, intestinal parasites are quite difficult to kill. It takes something pretty toxic to kill them.

Since you're dealing a herb grown in unknown conditions, harvested in an unknown matter, processed for drying by unknown methods, and likely not stored properly. All of these things have an impact on the potency and toxicity of herbs. Unless you plan to have it titrated for thujone content in your final brew, I'd leave the wormwood alone.

2 cents,

M.

Ok I got lazy and didn't read the whole thread....


Wormwood, Bod Myrtle, Mugwort, Spruce and Juniper are things that have been used in brewing prior to the German Beer Purity Laws, which made it illegal to use ANYTHING as a bittering agent accept hops. Actually doing some research pilsners were originally bittered with Hensbane(thought to be the poison that Romeo took in Romeo and Juliet)

With the shortage and all we've bene trying to cut back on hops, and talked about a few ideas using these herbs in place of hops. At $5.00 a pound wormwood is much cheaper then well....any hops at this time. And I have seen a lot of people saying they have been using or looking at using some of these herbs also, actually saw someone talking about a Wormwood Porter that won a Local homebrew Contest.

So that on top of illegal distillation is the reason you see some of these on homebrew sites.

Hopefully I can add some insight to the wormwood discussion. Having drank several commercial, and "prototype" distilled absinthes. The wormwood in the absinthe is distilled. It does not cause any hallucinations and "tripping" effects that the anti wormwood people will tell you. I have also made teas with wormwood. Wormwood is VERY bitter. In a simple tea, a mixture of some herbs, and teas, you can easily overdue the bitterness in a pot of tea, .5-1 litre. So if you put this in your brew dont over do it. It is VERY bitter. As far as poisoning yourself, I wouldnt worry so much about that. I have drank a bunch of absinthe, probably 3 or 4 comercial bottles over time, and several teas with wormwood. Have also smoked wormwood and wormwood resin (both very harsh) and it in no way intoxicates you. At most the effect it gives you is clarity, and soberness. Just my 2 cents worth. Having many experiances with a couple varieties of wormwoods and absinthes made to true recipes, not that czech crap you light on fire.

On that note, I give 2 thumbs up to absinthe other than the price, and if you buy it, research before hand, there is alot of knockoff crap that will turn you off to the real deal. As for making teas, and smoking the stuff, stay away. As for putting it in my beer, I wouldnt do it myself, but if someone did research and came up with a way I would. I would say start with 1 tablespoon per 5 gallon, because the stuff is SO BITTER.

Cheesefood said:

Got info on Salvia Divinorim from that site! I want to eventally make a Salvia brew, when I figure out how.

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This has to be one of the worst ideas i've ever heard of. Salvia Divinorum has an awful taste. It doesn't really taste like anything... just a "leaf" taste to it. Also, the main chemicals in Salvia can't be absorbed when ingested. Thirdly, alcohol and any other drugs is generally a bad idea, except for maybe nicotine. Salvia Divinorum is a very powerful drug and should not be messed with.

1) Salvia tastes like ass, but it did give us this:

2) They did have a beer at GABF that had wormword in it. It think it was a Belgian Golden Strong called Wormy Wood or something like that. It was pretty good, but I can't say that I was frolicking around in a meadow with the easter bunny, Mrs. Claus and Tom Brokaw, either.

And now if you'll excuse me, I have to go to space now.

HAHAHAHA he freaks out at the cat, priceless.

LMFAO. That video is priceless. Now excuse me. I have to go to space now.

It is legal to import a SEALED bottle as a collectible (I've researched this topic before). The thujone content is what does most of the work, the wormwood mostly relaxes the nervous system, and depending on the content of both of these in the absinthe is hallucinogenic (If it is real absinth, say the good stuff from Germany/Czechoslovakia, two shots and you're legally insane).

Anything made in America, or purchased at a retail store, has a lot lower alcohol content as well as no thujone. I'm not sure enough on the kits which are available on foreign sites; they have shipping to the US, but I imagine it would be frowned upon by customs.

The Green Fairy kits (like http://www.homebrewing.org/Green-Devil-Absinthe-Kit_p_21-952.html) include the wormwood, but no thujone. It is equivalent to the fake 'absente' you can purchase at some liquor stores (although you can probably yield a higher alcohol content). No thujone, no hallucinogenic affects. Good if you like black licorice flavored liquor.

Um, I think some people are a little confused here, talking about thujone and wormwood as two different things. As a PHD in Food/Beverage Chemistry, I can inform you that the wormwood is the source of the thujone, ie, the thujone content is directly proportional to the wormwood.

The absinthe you purchase in American is legit.

Any hallucinagenic effects of absinthe are of the placebo/smoke & mirrors kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thujone

MoRoToRiUm said:

It is legal to import a SEALED bottle as a collectible (I've researched this topic before). The thujone content is what does most of the work, the wormwood mostly relaxes the nervous system, and depending on the content of both of these in the absinthe is hallucinogenic (If it is real absinth, say the good stuff from Germany/Czechoslovakia, two shots and you're legally insane).

Anything made in America, or purchased at a retail store, has a lot lower alcohol content as well as no thujone. I'm not sure enough on the kits which are available on foreign sites; they have shipping to the US, but I imagine it would be frowned upon by customs.

The Green Fairy kits (like Green Devil Absinthe Kit) include the wormwood, but no thujone. It is equivalent to the fake 'absente' you can purchase at some liquor stores (although you can probably yield a higher alcohol content). No thujone, no hallucinogenic affects. Good if you like black licorice flavored liquor.

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There is no Hallucinogenic effect to even PRE BAN absinthe from over 100 years ago. It was a hoax by the failing french wine industry to kill the popularity of absinthe. Having tried several European absinthe, and USA varieties, I can say there is no effect. Thujone in any capicity cannot give you hallucinations. As I posted earlier, I have had high thujone content wormwood tea, and smoked the wormwood. Also have smoked wormwood resin. I would suggest researching the subject on wormwood society a known reputable forum on absinthe and wormwood. And anyone who tells you that the Czech absinthe is tradionial is full of crap. It is pretty much everclear macerated with wormwood. Taste like hell and is not absinthe other than in name only. As of this year there is REAL absinthe sold here in the USA. By new years, we will have several European absinthes available as laws have been made to conform withe euro laws here. Just takes some time for the distillers to get there labels approved.

From all the reading I've done on Absinthe, and from the couple times I've tried it (a good buddy smuggled some back stateside from the Czech Republic), I'm pretty sure there's so much alcohol in there that you'll be passed out or dead before you've consumed enough wormwood to get get to the "secondary" effects.

In other words, it's just plain old booze in Absinthe that makes you goofy

If you want to hallucinate legally, go to your local head shop and drop 20 bucks on some salvia. 3 hits of 10x or so, and you will be in another world, on the ground drooling on the floor, but you will the most hallucinating trip you ever experienced. I do not recommend nor will I ever do it again. But if your looking to hallucinate, absinthe is not your answer. And absinthe is not takin in shots either. at 140 proof, that would be a killer shot. You are supposed to take a shot, and mix it with 3 parts ice water, then sip it. Sorry for rant, I cant stand the hype and bs put out there. In my state there trying to classify malt beverages as distilled beverages, which to me is BS. They say they need to make the mikes hard, and smirnoff ice and such more expensive so kids dont buy it. Doesnt the law that says you have to be 21 make it so kids dont buy it? So this just got me going even more.

I know but I tried salvia a few times. It was crazy. I was in another world for what felt like hours and it was only about 2-3 minutes of me passed out. I have a video but it looks really lame. I since have tried to find more salvia but none of it is strong enough to do anything. Def crazy I can't believe it's legal.

NikolausXX said:

There is no Hallucinogenic effect to even PRE BAN absinthe from over 100 years ago. It was a hoax by the failing french wine industry to kill the popularity of absinthe. Having tried several European absinthe, and USA varieties, I can say there is no effect. Thujone in any capicity cannot give you hallucinations. As I posted earlier, I have had high thujone content wormwood tea, and smoked the wormwood. Also have smoked wormwood resin. I would suggest researching the subject on wormwood society a known reputable forum on absinthe and wormwood. And anyone who tells you that the Czech absinthe is tradionial is full of crap. It is pretty much everclear macerated with wormwood. Taste like hell and is not absinthe other than in name only. As of this year there is REAL absinthe sold here in the USA. By new years, we will have several European absinthes available as laws have been made to conform withe euro laws here. Just takes some time for the distillers to get there labels approved.

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Huh, I don't doubt you, I always just assumed the hallucinogenic effect was caused by unsafe distilling techniques common in the late 19th/early 20th centuries...similar to why bath tub gin "would make you go blind", toxins and poor techniques that are well beyond the worries or many modern day distilleries.

also, while it is very bitter, I enjoy the anise taste. and I said anise, not anus...I will nip that little joke in the bud right now lol

Wormwood is very, very bitter and that could be attractive to some brewers.

The amount needed to produce an absinth-like elixir would make a beer utterly disgusting...I believe it needs to be soaked in a high concentration of alcohol (grain/vodka) to produce its "fairy-like" properties...

It has been recently proven that there are no "hallucinagenic" properties to wormwood. It's just an herb like any other herb. A show I watched on Discovery stated that the likely culprit to the absithne hallucination stories was people making low quality absinthe, cheaping out on the herbs that turn it green, and using copper sulphate, which is a highly toxic supstance, for color. Absinthe is no more hallucinagenic, or "drug" like than Jagermeister.