Alabama...**sigh**

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CGVT

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ABC agents raid Birmingham beer and wine store, take homebrewing equipment
Published: Thursday, September 20, 2012, 7:39 PM Updated: Thursday, September 20, 2012, 7:39 PM
By Madison Underwood | al.com
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Agents from the Alabama Alcoholic Beverage Control Board raided this Hop City location Thursday, Sept. 20, 2012, and took $7,000 worth of homebrewing equipment, owner Kraig Torres says. (Madison Underwood | al.com)
BIRMINGHAM, Alabama -- The owner of a small beer, wine, and homebrewing supply chain says three agents from the Alabama Alcoholic Beverage Control Board raided his unopened store late Thursday afternoon and took $7,000 worth of home beer brewing supplies, including boxes of beer brewing kits, carboys, immersion chillers, and books about brewing.
Kraig Torres, the owner of Hop City Craft Beer & Wine, said the raid delayed a planned soft opening of the 5,500 square-foot Birmingham store scheduled for Friday.
"It's going to be delayed until Tuesday next week at the earlier," Torres said. "I'm being held hostage by the ABC board."
"They've come into my store with three armed men and threatened to arrest my general manager on the grounds that we have supplies in the store that can be used to make beer."
The agents took the equipment used to brew beer, but Torres said they left the ingredients used in beer brewing -- grain, hops, and yeast -- in the store.
"They said they'll be back at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning and everything had to be -- everything, every pellet of hops, every kernel of grain -- had to be out of the store before they'd be willing to consider our license," Torres said. He said he now plans to get those ingredients out of his unopened store, which is located on 2nd Avenue South near Pepper Place, and take them back to his other location in Atlanta Thursday night.
Torres said he did "a very large amount of due diligence" before purchasing the homebrewing equipment to sell in his store. He said he doesn't believe that it is illegal to sell homebrewing equipment, although it is illegal to brew beer at home in Alabama.
"We were compliant prior to their entering the store," Torres said.
"We're completely at the mercy of the ABC board at this point," Torres said.
When the store does open, it might be in a reduced capacity. "It's safe to say that until we can resolve this matter legally, we will be a beer and wine only store," Torres said.
"I'm beyond upset about it."
Attempts to reach ABC Board representatives by e-mail and phone were not returned Thursday evening.
 
So... uhh... yeah. Screw them. Glad I live in Michigan. If there's any way to help their cause, let us know.
I recently joined the AHA to help support causes like yours in your state. The least I could do, but yeah...

This is crazy. I'm sure we'll hear more in the upcoming days.
 
i was offered a transfer to alabama 2 years ago. involved a promotion and a payraise (not much of either). my main argument? nope, can't legally brew there. was in the master's program in auburn, and enough said...
 
Your tax dollars at work. Gotta love how the State knows more than you do about what's best
 
That's crazy. Alabrew HBS in Birmingham has been open for... well I don't know how long, and I've bought brewing equipment and ingredients from Pearly Gates in Huntsville since the late 70's. I wonder why they have an agenda for Hop City?
 
For anyone else who is interested, there is an article on al.com about it. Read through the user comments, everyone seems very supportive of the store.
 
So I'm asssuming it's illegal to sell stock pots and buckets in Alabama...well..."We all love the Governor, boo boo boo! We all did what we could do"...I guess we need to try harder, a real shame, I'm sorry, ashamed this is happening in my country.
 
Alabama's anti-homebrewing laws just don't make any goddamn sense. It's not like they ban the consumption of alcohol in the state.

Sorry to anyone who has the misfortune to live in the wrong part of Dixie.
 
It's a backwards law for sure. I can buy a bucket, no problem. I can buy a 5 gallon pot, no problem. I can buy any type of grain I want, juice, ect. No problem. I can buy hose, spoons, ect, no problem. I can buy beer that's already made! No problem. I wonder at what distance a yeast cell must be from the must before it becomes illegal. It's all a money run, or backasswards religous nuttery.
 
That's just retarded. Beer laws in this entire country are out of whack. Looks like AL is among the worst.
 
That's crazy. Alabrew HBS in Birmingham has been open for... well I don't know how long, and I've bought brewing equipment and ingredients from Pearly Gates in Huntsville since the late 70's. I wonder why they have an agenda for Hop City?

Sounds like some politician wants to get his name in the news. Elections coming up, you know.
 
This is why Alabama tops my list of "places I would love to not visit/live".

If i may quote the 80s Sean Penn movie "Colors" ...."There's no future in it, homes"
 
I'm sorry, but it would be impossible to block the sale of everything (or anything) that can be used to make beer, as each and every piece of equipment and ingredient has a legitimate alternate use. The ABC has nothing to stand on here.

Now if they were actually HOMEBREWING at the store, then I can see them arresting.

Oh well. It's more fun to break the law anyway amiright?
 
Sounds like Ohio. No precise language legalizing the making of beer in the home. It pretty much just says you need to be licenced to sell it. Read it on the AHA site. But if it's illegal to brew in AL,then why was he selling the stuff to begin with? Not against HB'rs or anything,just wonderin.
 
It's why the no government should be in a position to profit through the regulation of an industry. Too much money at stake (in their ignorant opinion) if people make their own beer vs buying through the government monopoly. Just like the distribution mafia in three-tier states, you just have to Follow The Money to understand why.
 
I'm sorry, but it would be impossible to block the sale of everything (or anything) that can be used to make beer, as each and every piece of equipment and ingredient has a legitimate alternate use. The ABC has nothing to stand on here.

Now if they were actually HOMEBREWING at the store, then I can see them arresting.

Oh well. It's more fun to break the law anyway amiright?

Breaking the law, breaking the law.

I've seen the other HBS store people brew right outside the front door many times and once with a police officer inside buying something. I guess it's just wort and legal until the yeast is pitched.
 
This thread is important, but we're veering off into political remarks and so we'll have to toe the fine line between discussion and politics.

Since political comments are against our forum rules (except for the Debate Forum), please keep your comments on the point but without political overtones. Thanks.
 
I probably should have posted this in the Debate Forum because it is a political/religious issue in Alabama, but I don't know that there is much to actually debate. I think we all pretty much agree that this, as well it not being legal to brew beer in AL, is BS. Ha!
 
I remember watching a video with audio of the debate on a homebrewing legalization bill that came up in the Alabama legislature. The legislators sounded woefully ignorant.
 
I don't understand, was it illegal for the store to possess and sell homebrewing equipment and ingredients? Up until you add yeast to the wort, you don't have anything technically illegal in Alabama as far as I am aware. This sounds like a big overreach by the local ATF and the store owner needs to get himself a lawyer involved.
 
Up until you add yeast to the wort, you don't have anything technically illegal in Alabama as far as I am aware.

I don't think that argument would hold up in court (if it ever came to that). The intent is clear, and intent is enough to convict.
 
ArcaneXor said:
I don't think that argument would hold up in court (if it ever came to that). The intent is clear, and intent is enough to convict.

Only if it's written into Alabama law. That argument should definitely hold up in court. It's illegal to make, possess, and distribute cocaine, but buying, selling, and owning scales, baggies, and the like is not illegal. As far as I know they can't charge them with conspiracy to commit homebrewing.
 
Wow, this is absurd. What a sad day for liberty.

This is not meant to be a political statement, but this is what Alabamans are up against:
 
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I probably should have posted this in the Debate Forum because it is a political/religious issue in Alabama, but I don't know that there is much to actually debate. I think we all pretty much agree that this, as well it not being legal to brew beer in AL, is BS. Ha!

This is where it needed to be posted. If it were posted in the debate forum I never would have seen it.

Anyway, I wonder if the lunatics from ALCAP are involved?
 
I don't understand, was it illegal for the store to possess and sell homebrewing equipment and ingredients? Up until you add yeast to the wort, you don't have anything technically illegal in Alabama as far as I am aware. This sounds like a big overreach by the local ATF and the store owner needs to get himself a lawyer involved.

You cannot posses equipment used to make alcoholic beverages.
 
Without getting too political, I say that this is what the voters wanted there. Maybe someday enough people will vote to elect people who want to eliminate the anti-homebrewing law. until then, Homebrewing is illegal. However, the problem is that the ABC was not arresting people for homebrewing. Apparently they were confiscating equipment being sold for use in homebrewing, which in itself is not illegal as far as I know.

I would be interested in hearing what the ABC has to say about this. At this time they have not responded to requested to discuss the matter. I wonder if they are in meetings to figure out how to save face. I think they may have realized that they have made an error.
 
You cannot posses equipment used to make alcoholic beverages.

I don't think that's the case. Common household utensils are the only things required to make beer. Distillation equipment is supposed to be illegal, but you can always buy stills from people online in those states, nonetheless. Just don't get caught using them.
 
I don't think that's the case. Common household utensils are the only things required to make beer. Distillation equipment is supposed to be illegal, but you can always buy stills from people online in those states, nonetheless. Just don't get caught using them.

"In all counties of the state it shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to have in his or its possession any still or apparatus to be used for the manufacture of any alcoholic beverage of any kind or any alcoholic beverage of any kind illegally manufactured or transported within the state or imported into the state from any other place without authority of the alcoholic control board of the state, and any person, firm or corporation violating this provision or who transports any illegally manufactured alcoholic beverages or who manufactures illegally any alcoholic beverages shall, upon conviction, be punished as provided by law." §28-1-1

The phrase "to be used" implies some sort of intent to me. But it's somewhat ambiguous, to be sure.
 
"In all counties of the state it shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to have in his or its possession any still or apparatus to be used for the manufacture of any alcoholic beverage of any kind or any alcoholic beverage of any kind illegally manufactured or transported within the state or imported into the state from any other place without authority of the alcoholic control board of the state, and any person, firm or corporation violating this provision or who transports any illegally manufactured alcoholic beverages or who manufactures illegally any alcoholic beverages shall, upon conviction, be punished as provided by law." §28-1-1

The phrase "to be used" implies some sort of intent to me. But it's somewhat ambiguous, to be sure.

That statement is unenforceable as we all know that every piece of equipment used in beermaking for household use is commonly found in the home anyway. So they would be able to prosecute anyone with a large pot, bucket and empty bottles. That would be pretty much most people in the state.

Laws that are overly broad can and are struck down.
 
Without getting too political, I say that this is what the voters wanted there. Maybe someday enough people will vote to elect people who want to eliminate the anti-homebrewing law. until then, Homebrewing is illegal. However, the problem is that the ABC was not arresting people for homebrewing. Apparently they were confiscating equipment being sold for use in homebrewing, which in itself is not illegal as far as I know.

I would be interested in hearing what the ABC has to say about this. At this time they have not responded to requested to discuss the matter. I wonder if they are in meetings to figure out how to save face. I think they may have realized that they have made an error.

I think there is some truth to this statement. I wonder if pro-homebrewers pushed ABC to this to make it more visible. ABC was on board with the homebrew legalization bill that made it through the House but didn't get to vote in the Senate last year.

That being said, and without getting too politcal ;), being pro-home brewing is a dangerous stance for a politician to take in this state. It is going to be a very tough battle to get home brewing legalized
 
That statement is unenforceable as we all know that every piece of equipment used in beermaking for household use is commonly found in the home anyway. So they would be able to prosecute anyone with a large pot, bucket and empty bottles. That would be pretty much most people in the state.

Again, the phrase "to be used" implies some sort of intent to me, so the large-potted homemaker would be just fine. But we all know how easy proving "intent to brew" is. So I agree with you, it is ambiguous and difficult to enforce.



...being pro-home brewing is a dangerous stance for a politician to take in this state.
Haha, can you imagine losing an election over this? Of all the issues out there by which to vote someone out of office, stance on homebrewing has got to be pretty low on my list.
 
Again, the phrase "to be used" implies some sort of intent to me, so the large-potted homemaker would be just fine. But we all know how easy proving "intent to brew" is. So I agree with you, it is ambiguous and difficult to enforce.

Not that difficult to enforce, apparently (cf. post #1 in this thread) ;)
 
Not that difficult to enforce, apparently (cf. post #1 in this thread) ;)

Touché.:eek:nestar: Perhaps more difficult to enforce fairly and consistently. IDK, I'm not a lawyer (too much writing).
 
Haha, can you imagine losing an election over this? Of all the issues out there by which to vote someone out of office, stance on homebrewing has got to be pretty low on my list.


Sadly, in Alabama you could absolutely lose an election over this.
 
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