Does Caramunich= Caramel Malt+Munich Malt?

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NigeltheBold

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I'm basically making a recipe that uses caramel/crystal 60L and some munich malt in equal amounts. I want a bit of the maltiness from the munich and a bit of caramelly/sweetness from the caramel. Would Caramunich III add both of those qualities? Or just one or the other?

In other words, instead of using both caramel/crystal 60L AND munich, could I just use caramunich III instead? If so, how much should I use? The recipe calls for 12oz. of caramel 60L and 12 oz. of munich.
 
NigeltheBold said:
I'm basically making a recipe that uses caramel/crystal 60L and some munich malt in equal amounts. I want a bit of the maltiness from the munich and a bit of caramelly/sweetness from the caramel. Would Caramunich III add both of those qualities? Or just one or the other?

In other words, instead of using both caramel/crystal 60L AND munich, could I just use caramunich III instead? If so, how much should I use? The recipe calls for 12oz. of caramel 60L and 12 oz. of munich.
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No. I see your point, but those are 2 different malts. I'm a big fan of the caramunich malts and use them a lot, but its a crystal malt. Munich is a base malt.
 
TimTrone said:
No. I see your point, but those are 2 different malts. I'm a big fan of the caramunich malts and use them a lot, but its a crystal malt. Munich is a base malt.
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Are you sure though? I mean, I know they're different malts, but I was under the impression CaraMunich was Munich malt that had the "crystallization" process done to it. I could be wrong there, but in regards to OP's question of will CaraMunich add maltiness and sweetness, I think you will get something similar to using crystal and Munich malt by using CaraMunich. It may not be exactly the same, but probably close to what you are looking for.
 
jeburgdo said:
Are you sure though? I mean, I know they're different malts, but I was under the impression CaraMunich was Munich malt that had the "crystallization" process done to it. I could be wrong there, but in regards to OP's question of will CaraMunich add maltiness and sweetness, I think you will get something similar to using crystal and Munich malt by using CaraMunich. It may not be exactly the same, but probably close to what you are looking for.
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That's the same thing I read somewhere (crystallized munich malt). I just wanted to hear others' opinions.
 
You'll end up with too much caramel if you try that. Caramunich does start with Munich malt instead of a Pils malt. But you'd still be getting double the caramels.
 
I do believe it is made from munich malt, or at least made to have similarities to munich malt. The reality is though is crystal malts can be very different. US crystal 60 vs british crystal 65 vs caramunich III are all dextrin rich crystal malts, but very different overall flavors.
 
david_42 said:
You'll end up with too much caramel if you try that. Caramunich does start with Munich malt instead of a Pils malt. But you'd still be getting double the caramels.
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I may have confused you. The original recipe calls for 12 oz. munich and 12 oz. of caramel 60. I didn't plan on using 24 oz. of CaraMunich. If I do go with the caramunich, I don't think I'll be using much more than 12 oz. total.

Would I still be "doubling" my caramel if I only used around 12 oz. of Caramunich?
 
NigeltheBold said:
I may have confused you. The original recipe calls for 12 oz. munich and 12 oz. of caramel 60. I didn't plan on using 24 oz. of CaraMunich. If I do go with the caramunich, I don't think I'll be using much more than 12 oz. total.

Would I still be "doubling" my caramel if I only used around 12 oz. of Caramunich?
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No. But you'd be leaving out the "Munich" as caramunich isn't really a replacement for Munich malt- it's a fine substitute for crystal though.
 
Yooper said:
No. But you'd be leaving out the "Munich" as caramunich isn't really a replacement for Munich malt- it's a fine substitute for crystal though.
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So when Munich malt goes through the "crystallization" process, it loses its "Munich-Like" qualities? So what's the point of even making CaraMunich malt if all you're going to end up with is just another caramel malt? Why even call it CaraMunich?
 
NigeltheBold said:
So when Munich malt goes through the "crystallization" process, it loses its "Munich-Like" qualities? So what's the point of even making CaraMunich malt if all you're going to end up with is just another caramel malt? Why even call it CaraMunich?
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Each maltster makes it a little differently- Weyermann's Caraaroma malt is a crystal malt like crystal 120L, but it's slightly different. English maltsters (like Baird) make crystal malts that are very like Briess' crystal malts, but subtly different as well. They are alike in color and level of sweetness, but not exactly the same.

CaraMunich is a very nice crystal malt, with a medium sweet and toasty flavor. It's a nice crystal malt. It's not a replacement for Munich malt, though, any more than Briess' crystal 60L made from US 6-row is a replacement for the 6-row base malt!

Think of it that way- when you use US crystal, you don't just leave out the US two-row. It's not an "instead of" type of malt- it's simply a crystal malt.
 
Yooper said:
Each maltster makes it a little differently- Weyermann's Caraaroma malt is a crystal malt like crystal 120L, but it's slightly different. English maltsters (like Baird) make crystal malts that are very like Briess' crystal malts, but subtly different as well. They are alike in color and level of sweetness, but not exactly the same.

CaraMunich is a very nice crystal malt, with a medium sweet and toasty flavor. It's a nice crystal malt. It's not a replacement for Munich malt, though, any more than Briess' crystal 60L made from US 6-row is a replacement for the 6-row base malt!

Think of it that way- when you use US crystal, you don't just leave out the US two-row. It's not an "instead of" type of malt- it's simply a crystal malt.
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Interesting. Well thanks for the advice. I may just end up using CaraMunich anyway just to see what it's like. Sounds like it could be a decent malt.
 
So, just doing the math....according to your original post you were looking at:

12oz munich + 12oz crystal60 = 24 oz total

You are proposing to substitute that with:

12oz caramunich III + ????? = 24oz total

Or were you just going to have 12oz of caramunich III and make up the rest in pale or something?

I think what folks are saying is that the 12 oz of caramunich III will provide a sub for the 12 oz of C60, but you'll still be missing out on a greater amount of the base munich. Even though caramunich is a crystal form of munich, it's still more crystal than the base munich malt. So with subbing just 12 oz caramunich I'm thinking you'll get maybe 80% crystal properties and 20% base munich. Basically a munich-y crystal instead of 1/2 munich and 1/2 crystal. Would others agree or am I way off base too?
 
beowulf said:
So with subbing just 12 oz caramunich I'm thinking you'll get maybe 80% crystal properties and 20% base munich. Basically a munich-y crystal instead of 1/2 munich and 1/2 crystal. Would others agree or am I way off base too?
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I never got any "Munich" flavor out of caraMunich malt, as it's more of a crystal malt.

But you got me thinking- I'm going to go into the basement and taste sample the grains.

I have Munich, caramunich, caramunich III, and crystal 60L. I will take a little sample of each and see if they taste totally different or similar, and report back!
 
Yooper said:
I never got any "Munich" flavor out of caraMunich malt, as it's more of a crystal malt.

But you got me thinking- I'm going to go into the basement and taste sample the grains.

I have Munich, caramunich, caramunich III, and crystal 60L. I will take a little sample of each and see if they taste totally different or similar, and report back!
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Are you going to mash the grains for the taste test?
 
Yooper said:
I never got any "Munich" flavor out of caraMunich malt, as it's more of a crystal malt.

But you got me thinking- I'm going to go into the basement and taste sample the grains.

I have Munich, caramunich, caramunich III, and crystal 60L. I will take a little sample of each and see if they taste totally different or similar, and report back!
Click to expand...

I was wrong- I had CaraMunich II, not III.

Anyway, I know crunching the grains isn't the same as mashing, but here is how they compare to eat other when I ate them:

Munich II- the sweetest of the grains. Sweet, and light. Real "malt" flavor.
Briess crystal 60L- sweet, but with a tinge of toasty/burnt flavor to it.
CaraMunich- more burnt tasting than expected. Not sweet at all, but lighter colored than the Briess crystal 60L. It didn't really taste very good, although I love it in a recipe.
CaraMunich II- closer to the same color as the Briess crystal 60L, but also with a burnt flavor very much like the CaraMunich. No real sweetness, but more of a roast/burnt flavor.

The "best tasting" of these was the Munich II.

So I went to Weyermann's website and found this:

Caramunich® Type 2 - origin of the word
Question We need to know origin of the word, Caramunich and something information of use to advertise about CARAMUNICH.
Answer Caramunich® is a trademark of Weyermann Specialty Malting Company. Please do not forget using the ® for Registered trademark whenever using the name Caramunich®. The prefix “CARA” represents “Caramelized” and makes clear that all Weyermann Caramel Malts are produced in the Weyermann Roasting- and Caramelization Drums. By using this unique and patented technology Weyermann Caramel Malts show a perfect caramelisation and fine caramel flavour and aroma. “munich” represents dark malts (Munich Beer type). Please have a look at the product specification and production description of the Weyermann caramel malt production at our website. "Cara” means that these products are caramel or roasted malts (Carafa® & Carafa® special) produced in roasting drums. Caramel malts are produced from green malt (directly after germination) in special designed roasting drums. In a saccharification step (70°C) the starch is converted into sugar. Then with higher temperatures these sugar is caramelized. For Carafa® roasted malt, special produced kilned malt is roasted in roasting drums (temperatures > 250°C).

So it looks like Caramunich means "crystal dark malt".
 
Yooper said:
I was wrong- I had CaraMunich II, not III.

Anyway, I know crunching the grains isn't the same as mashing, but here is how they compare to eat other when I ate them:

Munich II- the sweetest of the grains. Sweet, and light. Real "malt" flavor.
Briess crystal 60L- sweet, but with a tinge of toasty/burnt flavor to it.
CaraMunich- more burnt tasting than expected. Not sweet at all, but lighter colored than the Briess crystal 60L. It didn't really taste very good, although I love it in a recipe.
CaraMunich II- closer to the same color as the Briess crystal 60L, but also with a burnt flavor very much like the CaraMunich. No real sweetness, but more of a roast/burnt flavor.

The "best tasting" of these was the Munich II.

So I went to Weyermann's website and found this:

Caramunich® Type 2 - origin of the word
Question We need to know origin of the word, Caramunich and something information of use to advertise about CARAMUNICH.
Answer Caramunich® is a trademark of Weyermann Specialty Malting Company. Please do not forget using the ® for Registered trademark whenever using the name Caramunich®. The prefix “CARA” represents “Caramelized” and makes clear that all Weyermann Caramel Malts are produced in the Weyermann Roasting- and Caramelization Drums. By using this unique and patented technology Weyermann Caramel Malts show a perfect caramelisation and fine caramel flavour and aroma. “munich” represents dark malts (Munich Beer type). Please have a look at the product specification and production description of the Weyermann caramel malt production at our website. "Cara” means that these products are caramel or roasted malts (Carafa® & Carafa® special) produced in roasting drums. Caramel malts are produced from green malt (directly after germination) in special designed roasting drums. In a saccharification step (70°C) the starch is converted into sugar. Then with higher temperatures these sugar is caramelized. For Carafa® roasted malt, special produced kilned malt is roasted in roasting drums (temperatures > 250°C).

So it looks like Caramunich means "crystal dark malt".
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AWESOME post. Thanks for the info. And for the person who was asking about amounts, I was going to substitute the rest with base malt. In other words, 12 oz. CaraMunich and a few extra ounces of base malt. But now that I've read Yooper's post, I may need to re-think my idea.
 
NigeltheBold said:
AWESOME post. Thanks for the info. And for the person who was asking about amounts, I was going to substitute the rest with base malt. In other words, 12 oz. CaraMunich and a few extra ounces of base malt. But now that I've read Yooper's post, I may need to re-think my idea.
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If you have Vienna malt on hand, that would be the closest to Munich malt. If not, then any base malt would be ok. With only 12 ounces in a 5 gallon batch, you're not going to get a ton of character out of the Munich anyway but I'd try to go with the closest sub. In descending order of preference, I'd go with Vienna, Maris Otter, US pale malt. Another thought is to use the US pale malt, and add "something" else if you have it. I was thinking melanoidin malt, or aromatic malt. Like 10 ounces two-row, and then 2 ounces of aromatic malt. That might be a decent sub for Munich. If not, regular two-row will have to do. And I'm sure it will be fine.
 
For clarification -

Caramunich is produced from Munich malt. Munich malt has been kilned and therefore, dried out. By roasting Munich (to make Caramunich), you will get more Maillard reactions (high heat/low moisture) which will produce more bready/breadcrust flavors.

Crytal 60 and the like are produced by roasting green malts. This means the source malt is still "wet". This will yield more sugar to sugar reactions producing more sweet and caramel flavors(high heat/high moisture). The degree of the roast (lovibond level) will influence how sweet/carmely/toasty/roasted the Crystal/Caramel malt will taste.

This meshes with Yooper's practical and simple taste test.

Hope that helps.
 
jammin said:
For clarification -

Caramunich is produced from Munich malt. Munich malt has been kilned and therefore, dried out. By roasting Munich (to make Caramunich), you will get more Mailard reactions (high heat/low moisture) which will produce more bready/breadcrust flavors.

Crytal 60 and the like are produced by roasting green malts. This means the source malt is still "wet". This will yield more sugar to sugar reactions producing more sweet and caramel flavors(high heat/high moisture). The degree of the roast (lovibond level) will influence how sweet/carmely/toasty/roasted the Crystal/Caramel malt will taste.

This meshes with Yooper's practical and simple taste test.

Hope that helps.
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But Weyermann's own website (as above) states that their Caramunich IS a crystal malt, and not simply crystalized Munich malt. They state specifically that it is a green malt that is kilned, just like other cara/crystal malts.
 
Yooper said:
But Weyermann's own website (as above) states that their Caramunich IS a crystal malt, and not simply crystalized Munich malt. They state specifically that it is a green malt that is kilned, just like other cara/crystal malts.
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thats bizarre. should be produced from a kilned/dried out base malt if I am not mistaken. Hope I didn't put out bum info. Every maltster has their own process though.


edit: Can you please help me find where Weyermann specificies it is produced from green malt? I was searching their site and having a tough time locating that info. Thanks!
 
jammin said:
edit: Can you please help me find where Weyermann specificies it is produced from green malt? I was searching their site and having a tough time locating that info. Thanks!
Click to expand...

http://www.weyermann.de/eng/faq.asp?umenue=yes&idmenue=62&sprache=2

About a third of the way down there are sections:
"Caramunich® Type 2 - origin of the word"
"Caramelmalts"

Surprised me, but it's pretty conclusive that Caramunich is not just "crystallized" Munich. Yooper knows her stuff.
 
jeburgdo said:
http://www.weyermann.de/eng/faq.asp?umenue=yes&idmenue=62&sprache=2

About a third of the way down there are sections:
"Caramunich® Type 2 - origin of the word"
"Caramelmalts"

Surprised me, but it's pretty conclusive that Caramunich is not just "crystallized" Munich. Yooper knows her stuff.
Click to expand...

not trying to be argumentitive or hard-headed, but I don't read it that way for some reason. Perhaps my comprehension needs some polishing or Ive had too much homebrew this weekend.

Quote:
" FAQ

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caramelmalts
Question
I am trying to educate myself on the differences between your different cara malts. Based on the color ratings, it s easy to tell which malts will produce more color. Does the grain name following cara signify the grain that been crystalized? If so, it would make sense that Caramunich is a crystalized version of Munich....however what would the grain be for Carahell or Cara-amber? Beyond color, what are the variances in the caramalts (degree of body, foam, sweetness, caramel level, etc).
Answer
You are right. “Cara” means that these products are caramel or roasted malts (Carafa® & Carafa® special) produced in roasting drums. Caramel malts are produced from green malt (directly after germination) in special designed roasting drums. In a saccharification step (70°C) the starch is converted into sugar. Then with higher temperatures these sugar is caramelized. For Carafa® roasted malt, special produced kilned malt is roasted in roasting drums (temperatures > 250°C).
"

I don't see how it could be interpreted that they do not produce Caramunich from Munich. It sounds like they are saying Caramunich's origin is intuitive, but the other malts are mysterious - hence answering it on their FAQ.

Thoughts - Anyone else care to chime in?
 
Caramunich is a caramel malt. Weyermann states that their "Caramel malts are produced from green malt (directly after germination)..." Munich is kilned after it germinates, so is not a "green malt." The questioner was correct in assuming "cara" means crystal or caramel.

Probably not the clearest answer to that question (perhaps not the best translation from German?), but this much is clear.
 

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